A dialogue between a kaffir (Ianus) and and a "moderate" Muslim(Tariq) -continued
Submitted by Ianus (Poland), Jan 29, 2006 at 11:02Ianus : "wonder if you're not the imam in your local mosque? "
Tariq : You dont need to an Imam to have knowledge about your religion.
Ianus : Really? What sect of Islam do you belong to?
Ianus : ""Mistranslations" and "lies" ? …Examples , please, to prove the "facts"!
Tariq : All your comments are filled with lies. Read Lisa's comments. same there. and
Vinodgupt. mistranslations and quoting out of context.
Ianus : They all happen to be kaffirs , you don't …Is it a conicidence then that you're right while they are wrong?
Tariq : By saying tht "all the negative beliefs ppl have about Islam are actually a result of mistranslations, lies and the Quoting of the Holy Quran without looking at the history of Islam, when and why the verses were revealed, and what verses come before and after that verse, in other words, qouting the Quran out of Context.", I was not just refering to you but to others as well.(other non-muslims who have misconceptions about Islam)
Ianus : "the history of Islam" ? … You mean clumsy Islamic theology disguised as history?..."Quoting the Quran out of Context" ?...You mean play down any illogical puerile thought, any ugliness by finding ‘the context' , the ‘justification', the dignifying way around…Veil the face of the monster with a flowery apparel and the world will praise it!...A typical Muslim trick…
How can "the last Book of Allah", the "eternal book," "the eternal miracle", the "imperishable tablet," the "Mother of the Book, the "universal book", "all the guidance that humanity needs" , "the book addressing all peoples in the world irrespective of where they live or lived , valid for all times from the very beginning of the universe untli after the Day of Judgement "- to name just a few current description of the Heavenly Quran - be grossly and sacrilegeously reduced to "when and why the verses were revealed, and what verses come before and after that verse, in other words, qouting the Quran out of Context"? "
Tariq : WOW! so much narrow-mindedness.
Ianus : So you say that the above is false ?
Tariq : By quoting it out of context, you are changing its meaning to suit your lies. its like taking different alphabets from different parts of the quran and making your own sentences.
Ianus : How so? The eternal book is not foolproof?...How does it differ from any non-Muslim lucubration then?...Anyone could write the same , nay much better.
Tariq : Besides, Quran is a book of SIGNS and not Science.
Ianus: Dear me! Allah was then no … man … I mean no God of science?...How about the mathematical miraces inside the Quran ?... Who did He want to give His Signs to writing the Mother of the Book before the creation of the world before anyone who could see them ?...Were they His memoirs, diary …or what? …Book of SIGNS ? …So He was at least interested at cryptography , wasn't He?
Tariq : The Quran says in Surah AL-ARAF, chapter number 7, verse number 35"
"O ye Children of Adam! whenever there come to you messengers from amongst you, rehearsing My SIGNS unto you,- those who are righteous and mend (their lives),- on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve. "(emphasis added)
Ianus : Rehearsing?...Allah was the director and the prophets his actors to stage the "Convert or Die" Parody with "Go to Hell" "Got to paradise" intermezzos?
Tariq : The Quran is not an encyclopedia.
Ianus: Where is it stated in the Quran? Based on Muslim eulogies I have always thought it was much better and solid than the Encyclopaedia Britannica.
Tariq : It is a unique piece of literature with a lot of meaning in it.
Ianus : "From the literary point of view, the Quran has little merit. Declamation, repetition, puerility, a lack of logic and coherence strike the unprepared reader at every turn. It is humiliating to the human intellect to think that this mediocre literature has been the subject of innumerable commentaries, and that millions of men are still wasting time absorbing it." Salomon Reinch , Orpheus, Histoire générale de réligions , Paris 1909 , p.241-242.
Tariq : therefore you have to quote it in context and look at its history.
Ianus : Ever cared to read e.g.Theodor Nöldeke? Evidently we don't mean the same when we say ‘the context'.
"That book is valid out of context , independent of where and when and why this or that ayat was revealed! "
Tariq : A statement i would expect either from a liar or a jahileen.
Ianus : As a rightly guided Muslim you know I am both.
"If you relativise it and deny, you're making a clumsy human fogery out of the Quran!"
Tariq : According to dictionary.com, Forgery is:
The act of forging, especially the illegal production of something counterfeit.
Something counterfeit, forged, or fraudulent.
the act of falsely making, altering, or imitating (as a document or signature) with intent to defraud; also : the crime of committing such an act
something that is forged
None of these apply to my comments.
Ianus : You can contexualise a book that is written by Tariq , Ianus . To a book written by Allah ( all rights reserved!) you mustn't do the same. If you do you degrade it to the level of such a "liar " and "jahileen" as Ianus you'll discover in the claims of perfection 'something counterfeit, forged, or fraudulent'. He(Ianus) is capable of forgeries, but Allah?...Allah's word is beyond and above all earthly context and suspicions .
Tariq : I only quoted the Quran and explained its meaning in context.
Ianus : You relativised and and trivialized it and degraded it to the level of poor pagan literature.
Tariq : this you have to do in any book
Ianus : The Quran is not "any" book , it is a Superbook, the Mother(if not the Grandmother) of the Book! You don't have a right to touch it without washing your hands !
Tariq : and denying this fact is the best proof tht you no concrete argument or reply yo my comments.
Ianus : Denying this fact I only defend the truth revealed in the eternal miracle of Islam . [10.37]"And the Quran is not such as could ever be produced by other then Allah "
"If a Muslim disagrees on something with a kaffir, the Muslim must be ALWAYS right and the kaffir is ALWAYS wrong. This is Allah's will because Allah is the enemy of the kaffirs (2.98)"
Tariq : Narrow-mindedness again.
You said tht in disagreement a muslim is right and non-muslim wrong because Allah is an enemy to non-muslims. LOL. Is tht a joke?
Ianus : Allah isn't the enemy of the kaffirs then! … Ha!...Ha!...Ha! Allah also is a joker!...All His Quran was a giant joke and the Muslims were duped!...Thank you Allah , the Joking! … I understand your jokes ! The MuSlimes don't! …
Tariq : u have an opinion, not a fact and u justify it by Misrepresenting a verse from the Holy Quran even though the verse has nothing to do with your opinion.
And read your previous comment. you said:
Mistranslations" and "lies" ? …Examples , please, to prove the "facts"!
heres your mistranslation:
"This is Allah's will because Allah is the enemy of the kaffirs (2.98)"
Its not actually a mistranslation, its more of a misrepresentation. because the verse 98 of chpter 2 says:
"Whoever is an enemy to God and His angels and apostles, to Gabriel and Michael,- Lo! God is an enemy to those who reject Faith"
read the first part carefully, Allah is not the enemy of kaffirs, he is the enemy of whoever is an enemy to God and His angels and apostles
Ianus: Allah the Muslim is never the agressor. He just misleads people into being enemies of angels, Muslims , Allah and then declares them His personal enemies because they were misled by Him to become such!...Damn, Allah is a true Muslim! … Provoke, attack in secret, declare you're insulted by the defender and attack in good faith as if you were a defender !...
"Some kaffirs are unaware of this theonomical fact"
Tariq : i have proved u wrong again. its not a fact
Ianus : I am converted by this "proof"!
Tariq: It is a fact tht according to Islamic principles, what Osama and Saddam have done will sent them straight to hell.
Another "fact"?...They will send you to hell saying exactly the same! Genuine Islamic obscurantism!
Ianus:"It's your private opinion . The fact is that most Muslims have a different opinion on that and "who casts doubts on their faith leaves no doubt about his"…as I once read in one fatwa"
Tariq : First of all, the primary source of Islam is the Quran and not the Muslims.
Ianus : All Muslims say the same whatever views, sects, heresies they may happen to expound. All quote the primamry source , all whatever they do and say appeal to the primary source. The Saudis appeal to their constitution to persecute those who appeal to the same ‘constitution' to terrorize the persecutors and whoever happen to be disliked by them. Both are ‘true' Muslims and no doubt right!
Tariq : So it doesnt matter wot muslims think. many of them are arrogant, and dont know about their own religion.
Ianus : It is what other Muslims say about other Muslims. Each singular Muslim asserts he a true Muslim. There is no way to check. And no use …solipsistic faith!
Tariq : Secondly I read in a hadith tht if a muslim kills another muslim, he will go straight to hell.
Ianus : Before a Muslim kills a Muslim he declares him to be a heretic or a kaffir. Thus he doesn't put his own salvation in jeopardy.
Tariq : So it not my private opinion, its a fact tht in Islam a muslim like Osama and saddam will go to hell.
Ianus : In their own true Muslim opinion it is you that will go to hell.
: My reference if you happen to care about German is below . I don't have at present the book where I read about it :
What is yours? "
Tariq : Mine is a translated copy of Holy Quran by Yousuf Ali
Ianus : Name all the 53 passages with "salam"!
"Besides is as-salāmu alaikum" Islam ? "
Tariq : Wot kind of a question is this?
Ianus : If "Islam" is "salam", then why don't you greet "al-Islam alaikum"?
Tariq : Islam is a religion and it is also a word which means peace gained through submission to god.
Ianus : "peace gained through submission"… That's a definition of peace under despotic
Oriental tyranny, not so different from "peace of the tomb" .
Tariq : And as-salāmu alaikum is a greeting.
If u were trying to ask if as-salāmu alaikum is an Islamic greeting, then yes it is ALSO and Islamic greeting as well as a greeting in a culture.
Ianus : See above.
"[ Probably only to the extent that if a kaffir greets you this way you reply
instinctively: wa-s-sāmu 'alaikum"...
not wa-s-sāmu 'alaikum, but wa laikumas salam.
"(And a quick death (sam) with you, kaffir.) "
Tariq : We dont use the word 'sam' we use salam.
Ianus : But what if a Jew happens to greet you?
Tariq : And i have noticed tht u use kaffir negatively. kafir just means non-muslim just like gentiles mean non-jews.
Ianus : How about al the "peaceful" coexistence between the kaffirs and Muslims? How about 1400 of slavery and extermination of kaffirism?
Tariq : Wrong Islam is derived from Salam itself and not just sharing the same root slm."
Ianus : Give me a quote from a solid Arabic etymological dictionary – if you can find any because I far as I know Arabic is the only language that doesn't care about its own etymology … for good reasons !!! "
Tariq : In case u didnt know, the fact tht Islam is DERIVED from salam is so well-known tht it is now common knowledge. and common knowledge need not be cited. you can do the research yourself.
Ianus : I know there are no Arabic etymological dictionaries. They would debunk too many myths on which Islam stands… so e.g. the word "sirat" comes from the Latin "'strata' via" (street). How can a Latin word come up in the text written in the most perfect and purest language and find its way into al-Fatiha ?
Tariq : And the arabs care about arabics etymology more than you care about understanding wot a person has to say before writing any kind of arguments.
Ianus : Give me the titles of at least two Arabic etymological dictionaries , nay! One solid Arabic etymological dictionary am I am converted, please!
"There is an astonishing resemblence between how Islam and how a mamba behaves.
Tariq : I visited this webpage and read some of the article. I read the first para and stopped reading it. Want to know y?
Ianus: …Not really …
Tariq : The article has lies from the start. the first sentence is this:
"Muslim propagandists are nowadays making extraordinary efforts to change the image of Islam by reintroducing it to the Western society as a religion that calls for peace and rejects all kind of violence."
Islam has always been a religion of peace, it has been for 1400 years.
Ianus – Tacit premise : "peace " means "war" in Islamese.
Tariq : it doesnt matter wot muslims do.Many of them are ignorant about Islam like Osama and saddam.
Ianus: Only people like Tariq are right! Typical Muslim solipsism only to save the ugly face of Islam!
"They evidently do (follow Islam)."
Tariq : Osama does not follow the Quran. he like many other muslims are doing against the Islamic teachings
Ianus : They say exactly the opposite.
Tariq: You dont understand Islam ans you dont know who i am.
Ianus: Enlighten me! …You're a Muslim like all of them …solipsists, narcisists, irrationalists, dogmaticians and megalomaniacs…
Tariq : So your comment has no meaning or importance.
Ianus : How could a kaffir's comment have meaning or importance?
Muhammed started looting the caravans even during Ramadan, not the Meccans…He was the attacker at first… "
Tariq : i suggest increase your knowledge about Islam.
Muhammad(pbuh) did not start any war.The first war was fought to defend madina(in the battle of Badr)
Ianus : What did the Meccans want in Medina ? It had become a base of gangsters that regularly attacked the caravans going to Syria. their whole trade was disrupted by the robbers.
Tariq : And looting? u mean the taking the booty? it was common practice at tht time to take the stuff which your enemy has left behind. besides I see no harm in collecting the booty and recovering some of the financial damages tht your enemy has caused you.
Ianus : You're putting the life of Muhammed in the context…A robbery is a robbery. Compare Justinian's Code of the age.
"How can any attacker find me if I "and lie in wait for them in every stratagem"?..."
Tariq : they can find you because they are attacking your country.
Ianus : But my country is Mecca. I came to Medina as a vagrant and started a gangster's life?
"and if I "beleaguer", I am the attacker again…so I kill the defenders…""
Tariq : thts a nice one.
they are the attackers as they are attacking your city, in order to defend yourself you have to COUNTER-attack.
Ianus : But they are counterattacking as I started looting their caravans. So I have to countercounterattack…
"But what safety are you talking about?"
Tariq : Safety of living in the muslims city without any fear from the muslims.
Ianus : Without any frea from the Muslims?...That's impossible…The Muslims themselves live in a constant fear of each other , of being accused of heresy , of an evil eye, of sympathising with kaffirs…And me! … I prefer to live in hell , it's much safer , than in a Muslim city!
"I robbed my enemy, enslaved his children and his wife , took possession of his house "
Tariq : Your case is much different from the Muslims in the time of the Holy Prophet.
He didnt reob any1.
Ianus : So what happened before the battle of Badr?
Tariq : How can he rob his enemies who live so far tht it can take more than month to reach them, and who are stronger financially and militarily?
Ianus : He robbed their caravans on their trips to Syria.
Tariq : how can he "enslave his children and his wife " when they are miles away(it would take him more than a month to get there). and how can he possibly take possession of his house?!!!!!!
Ianus : It came later. In the meantime I just expropriated the Medina Jews who as kaffirs and liars possessed everything illegally.
Tariq : Their(pagans) house were in makkah. and it is a well known fact tht the holy prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and other muslims during his time went to makkah only once during the time after his hijrat and the conquest of makkah and tht too with their swords as the only weapon and tht too covered. (they went there for a pilgrimage after signing a treaty and came back without event. Also the it was nearly 11 years after his hijrat did he conquer makkah, tht also in a bloodless coup. and forgave all his enemys except a handful of them)
Ianus : except a handful of them!!!...All glory belongs to Allah! He might have slaughtered all of them as he did with the Jews!...Merciful Muhammad!...Just a handful after a just trial with witnesses, testimonies, judges and all!...
"The only option is either – kill him or sell him on the nearest slave market…or allow him a day or two to convert to Islam and join my marauding troops as I desperately need to replace the wounded and the killed from my own army."
Tariq : The above are wot YOU would probably have done.
Ianus : Surely, I would have declared Muahammed to be a kaffir and would have revealed my own Quran! Easy task! Just some cleverness and reliance on people's useful stupitidy and ignorance! And posterity would worship me with a certain Tariq courageously defending my good reputation !
Tariq : But in Islams case theses ppl(who ahve changed their minds and now want peace) were peacefully allowed to live in madina. And Islam does not allow non-muslims to be forced to accepting Islam(if you think im wrong then quote a verse from the Holy Quran)
Ianus: 4.89 "...But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks." (Yousuf Ali - your favourite translator )
Tariq : Besides, use your common sense. A person forced to change his faith would turn against the muslims in the next war, kill many muslims ans escape. this way muslims would be defeated in each and every war(which ofcourse didnt happen)
Ianus : You must be clever and use them as cannon fodder to spare true Muslims' lives. Ever heard of the janissaries besides?
Tariq : ever seen this happening anywhere else?
Ianus : You mean tribalism ?…"
Tariq : I think you need to read Harrak's comments again. And Also read mine again and try to UNDERSTAND wot im saying.
Ianus : I'll do the moment he answers my last post to him. It's not so hard to understand you Muslims despite all your oriental prevarications and crookedness. It's only impossible to agree with you .
Ianus : A brillian metaphor for "the adobe of fire" or "hell"!"
Tariq : thts your opinion
Ianus : I know your Muslim twisted ways of saying things.
"Can I tell you in brief the story of Banu Quraisa "
Tariq : thts wot it was. a story. I story originating from the mind of a person who has no tolerance for other religions.
Ianus : Not at all. All based on Muslim sources as all the Jewish sources have been purosefully destroyed and vanished without trace.
"It was Muhammed who started robbing them. They defended themselves".
Tariq: To answer this lie of yours i'll just qoute you:
'Don't distort history with newly invented ‘facts'!
Ianus : "This lie of mine "?... Muslims talk of history? It's something new to me.
They know nothing but theology disguised as history. What happened after he fled to Medina? He had people and no income so he had to start a gangster's life to feed and clothe his discontented ‘mujahedeen' otherwise they would have rebelled against their penniless ‘prophet'. The Meccans were not interested in waging war. They relied on peace to conduct business with Byzantine and Persia. He was the trouble-maker.
Tariq : The command was not general but only refers to particular groups of the Makkan idolaters and used to harass the Muslims whenever they found them helpless and when overpowered prayed for amnesty by making treaties which they used to break before their ink was dried.
verse 9:29 does not say all non-muslims should be subdued only the non-muslims who have acted like these pagans of makkah did
Ianus : Explain that subtle difference to all the victims of Muslim terror and duplicity that have been subdued since the battle of Badr. But to put this verse in the context - at the time Muhammed relied on some non-Muslims as long he was not strong enough to get rid of them . So he just like Lenin distinguished carefully between the idiots that are "useful" and the idiots that were useful.
Tariq : Do u hav anything useful to say?
Ianus : Convert to kaffirism and you'll learn plenty of useful things from me!
Tariq : wot does your opinions about 'Muslim' terror, Muhammed(pbuh)relying on non-Muslims and lenin have to do with my comment.
Ianus : A lot.
Tariq : Just admit tht you were decieving the visitors of danielpipes.org by quoting the verses 9:29,9:5 and 9:123 out of context or you can quote some other verse to prove tht I am wrong.
Ianus : It's must be a common collective deception as I have seen these verses quoted many times even in this forum , not to speak of others.
Tariq : "Tell me one thing Ianus. Is paying tax evil? "
Ianus : No,
Tariq : so you agree with me? i dont think so. i think i qouted you out of context!
Ianus : Why? Am I a quran or a post-Islamic prophet?
"No, especially if the only option left for me is to have my throat cut or head smashed…'
In Islams case this is not an option. Islam gives the right to non-muslims to keep their faith in their religion(it you think im wrong, again prove it by quoting a verse from the Holy Quran.
"By the way, I am the kaffir from the "protected people".You are my Muslim master"
Tariq : is bush a master of all americans?
Ianus : Do they pay jizya already?
"But who do you want to protect me against?... "
Tariq : narrow-minded ppl take everything literally.
Ianus : When a Muslim talks to you you never know how to undestand him. One thing is sure – never trust a Muslim!
Tariq : Protected ppl doesnt mean you are protected, it has been used FIGURATIVELY to mean tht your rights are protected.
Ianus : Rights? Only Muslims have rights pleno sensu as all rights are given by Allah. We kaffirs exist illegally and have no rights in the proper sense of the word!!!!
Tariq : read my previous comment again:
And jizya should be paid by all Dhimmis. Literally Dhimmi means protected people. These people have SPECIAL rights e.g. they can EAT PORK, drink WINE, gamble, etc amongst themselves. They can even trade in these things.(even though all this is HARAM IN ISLAM) and they can fFREELY build their places of WORSHIP. Only the working dhimmis have to pay jizya, children, old ppl, disabled etc are exempt from. and jizya is very little money. Much less than wot muslims have to pay for Zakat.(another kind of tax).
"France , Spain, Britain, Denmark, Sweden , Norway, Germany, Austria, Italy,Ireland, Belgium, Holland, America, Canda, Australia. "
Tariq : living in non-muslim majority country, they have little knowledge about Islam
Ianus : So those who live in the Muslim-only country are too ignorant, illiterate to have a true grasp of Islam, while those "living in non-muslim majority country, they have little knowledge about Islam" too…Are there any Muslims in this world who have full knowledge about Islam?…
"Were it not to its inherent obscurity, puerility and contradictions that might be a reliable source."
Tariq : obscurity? it seems obscure to you because you cant even understand my comments.
Ianus : Isn't it because you formed your mind on the obscure irrational Quran ?
Tariq : i write something and you understand it completely differtently and reply back.
puerility? childish? Lol if it is chldish then please tel me. How come no1 has ever written a book with this much scientific accuracy and depth in meaning?
Ianus : What science and accuracy are you talking about? You just said "Quran is a book of SIGNS and not Science"and "The Quran is not an encyclopedia."…And now you praise its
"scientific accuracy" ? ..
Tariq : contradictions? like wot?
Ianus : The Qurans claims :
4.82 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy. (Yususf Ali)
" 1.1 In the name of Allah, the Beneficient, the Merciful".
Who wrote it , Allah? Is Allah talikng about himself "In the name of me , Allah…?"
6.115 " The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all." (Yusuf Ali)
(7.54) Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days …
Yes, six days!
Heaven and earth created in 6 days!!
(41.9) Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? (2)
(41.10) He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, (4)
(41.12) So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days. (2)
Another mathematical miracle of Allah 6=8 ?
Tariq : maybe you are amongst those ppl who think there are any contradictions in the Quran, but believe me, all these 'contradicitons' are a result of misrepresentation of the verses, or incomplete translations.
Ianus : I am quoting your favourite translator Yusuf Ali.
"Islam is not a religion like any other just like the dinosaur Tyrannosaurus Rex is not just an animal like any other"
Tariq : Just like i said. u dont understand my comments, and reply back with comments which have no meaning and have nothing to do with anything.
Ianus : On the contrary. I do understand you perfectly well. You want to make me believe what I find (can verify as) totally false and like what I find disgustful and barbarian. I understand you and that's why I oppose you.
"And its "holy script" differs a lot from all other Scriptures "
Tariq : Wot exactly are u trying to say? say it clearly. do you mean to say tht a holy script is not the most reliable source for a religion?!!
Ianus : A religion? Islam is a death and hate cult disguised as "religion of peace" and its so called holy script is a blashemy to mankind. Twist your holy script as you may , it will always show up its ugly satanic verses.
"Isn't it almost the same ? "
Tariq : Truly very intelligent comment!! Maybe in christianity it is the same. but no in Islam it ist.
In Islam there is a lot of difference in God and humans.
Ianus : God?…It's the Devil incarnate and He resembles closely His beloved Muslims , the 'angels' on the earth!
Ianus : But that was a bungled job "
Tariq : Read my comments carefully. i said:'fine tuned ecosystem and solar systems'
Science has proven
Ianus : …Allah is no God of Science as His "book" clearly reveals.
Tariq : tht the universe and all of natures systems are finetuned:
If gravity were stronger, excessive ammonia and methane would collect in the Earth's atmosphere, which would have a most damaging effect on life.
If it were weaker, the Earth's atmosphere would lose excessive quantities of water, making life impossible
If earths distance from the were any greater, the planet would grow very cold, the water cycle in the atmosphere would be affected, and the planet would enter an ice-age.
If the Earth were any closer to the Sun, plants would burn up, the water cycle in the Earth's atmosphere would be irreparably damaged, and life would become impossible
A smaller star than the Sun would mean the Earth would freeze and a larger star would lead to its burning up.
The Earth has a 23 degree angle of inclination to its orbit. It is this inclination that gives rise to the seasons. If this angle were any greater or any less than it is now, the temperature difference between the seasons would reach extreme dimensions, with unbearably hot summers and bitterly cold winters.
If proportion of Oxygen and Nitrogen in the Atmosphere were any greater, vital functions would be adversely accelerated
If it were any less, vital functions would adversely slow down.
Ianus : You'll soon prove that Newton was a Muslim, won't you ? ... and that quantum mechanics was invented by some Islamic scholars as a byproduct of their study of the Holy Quran?
Tariq : Now lets see wot the Quran has to say about Gods creations:-
Ianus : Why the Quran…you said above that the Quran is not a book of science! Did you forget it?...Don't ascribe to it virtues it doesn't possess.
Tariq : "He Who created the seven heavens in layers. You will not find any flaw in the creation of the All-Merciful. Look again-do you see any gaps? Then look again and again. Your sight will return to you dazzled and exhausted! "
"He to Whom the kingdom of the heavens and the earth belongs. He does not have a son and He has no partner in the Kingdom. He created everything and determined it most exactly."
Attention is drawn in the above verses to the measure and harmony in Allah's creation. The word "taqdeeran," meaning "to design, measure, create by measuring," is employed in Qur'anic verses such as Surat al-Furqan 2. The word "tibaqan," meaning "in harmony," is used in Surat al-Mulk 3 and Surah Nuh 15. Furthermore, Allah also reveals in Surat al-Mulk with the word "tafawutin," meaning "disagreement, violation, non-conformity, disorder, opposite," that those who seek disharmony will fail to find it.
Ianus : But perhaps you're right! Forget science! Study the Quran. All science is contained in it and you'll never discoever anything that has not been said in the Quran…That's why we owe all useful things to Muslim science …including Muslim geoscience…
Tariq : How can a human be compared to god?"
Ianus : He can if he is a good Muslim human! "
Tariq : Can u plz reply with facts? In Islam a person cannot be compared to godeven if he is a good muslim.
Ianus : In that case this person must be a bad Muslim.
"Are you referring to your Black-Stone worshippers?"
Tariq : Again you didnt try to understand wot im trying to say.
anyways if you mean the hajray-aswad, then you just showed how ignorant you are.
muslims dont WORSHIP the black stone.
Ianus : They only kiss this petrified angel that was parachuted from paradise together with Adam and on the Day of Judgement the angel-stone will defend all the kissers whatever sins they might have otherwise committed…Have you completed a hajj and kissed the angel-stone yet?
"Why didn't He deign to come here in person?..."
Tariq : because he is not a person. and you dont have the ability to see him.
Ianus : But you as a good Muslim do, don't you?
… By god?... No! It's Muslim maniacs that punish and intimidate and kill them. Your Allah is an idiot's dream. Your constant ravings of Allah is sheer nonsense. It's you Muslims that kill and destroy people and make the victims believe it is not your hordes that do it but "God"…No guilt complex !... You are little allahs on eearth , maniacs and mass murders…Everyone of you is a tiny megalomaniac allah that wants to be worshipped and adored despite your ugliness and monstrosity… "
Tariq : any reader would know how badly you need something solid to win this argument.
Ianus : One reader's comment : "All I need to know about Islam I learned on 9/11".(on a different forum)
Tariq : Even the bible says tht in hell ppl will burn in liquid sulfur
Ianus : Even?… You know as a Muslim that the Bible has been abrogated by the Quran. So why quote a false source?
Tariq : You sure have a lot of difficulty in understanding others comments. my suggestion to u is tht you read my coments atleast twice.
Ianus : It will not help unless you purify your style (= No Muslim can write clearly. So the first step to improve your style is to convert to another creed ,e.g. Buddhism.)
Tariq : i was not Quoting the source. I was not saying that ppl should be punished in hell because the bble says so. I was only trying to tell you tht christians also believe in hell.
Ianus : Are you sure the same hell as you Muslims do?
"Tariq: God has given humans something no other being has: intelligence and free will"
"Ianus : Credo quia absurdissimum"
Tariq : Maybe your an exception
Ianus…In the sense I know a little Latin?...To tell you the truth I do prefer it to Arabic.
Tariq : God has allowed humans to act as they want to."
Ianus : If so why does He demand Islam(submission)? Either slavery or free will. "
Tariq : y not both together? you have free will. God wants you to use it to either become a muslim or remain a non-muslim. its up to your free will.
Ianus : Don't twist the Quran . There is no free will in Islam. Allah set a seal on a kaffir's heart to have the sadistic pleasure of tormenting him for his alleged (Allh-induced) sin :
(2.6) As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe. (2.7) Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).
"If your only reality is the hereafter,"
Tariq : IF. a very important word. i didnt say tht this world is not REAL!!
Ianus : Real? The hereafter is "real " for you. This world is just a "test".
"Go to your only reality instead of changing this one into a nightmare with your gloomy preaching!"
Tariq : You really dont have any real arguments against me do you?
Ianus : How can a kaffir have ‘any real argument' against a Muslim? My very existence is illegal!...Your Islam is the best argument against you.
Don't thank me , thank Allah! "
Tariq : Thanks to god tht he showed Ianus, one of his signs throw me
make tht two!
Ianus : Allah, thanks o shookran! ... Thanks thee, Allah , that Thou hast taught me that thou Allah hate thy Muslims and art thyself an ardent atheist! Open the eyes of thy Muslims so that they can imagine what I and you we both mean.
Tariq : In this verse God is not asking Muslims to burn any1.
Ianus : In fact! This pleasure is his!...Muslims must be satisfied with blood shedding, hanging, throwing people from towers, crucifying …Burning people is Allah's pastime.
Tariq : It would be an Injustice on the muslims if non-muslims also go to heaven. NOW PLZ READ THIS PART OF THE COMMENT AGAIN AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND WOT I M TRYING TO SAY: muslims spend their life for the cause of Islam. and non--muslims against it. Muslims serve Allah. and non-muslims dont. some of them have even killed,abused or tormented the believers. dont you think it would an injustice on muslims if the non-muslims get to go to heaven?(even after harming the muslims?)
In Islam, muslims are not allowed to harm other creations of god, muslims or non-muslims, or even animals.without reason.
Muslims have only 3 valid reasons to attack:
1) to defend themselves
2) to defend Islam(the Islamic way of life
3) to fight oppression or tyranny.
Ianus : It's a longer and more twisty way to say I am right! Shookran, Tariq!
…"muslims who don't follow Islam"…I have always thought that "muslims who don't follow Islam" aren't Muslims at all…Thanks for correcting my poor logic "
Tariq : They are muslims as they believe in Allah and his Prophet.
Ianus : In this case they follow Islam, don't they?
Tariq : but they dont follow Islam and only misrepresent Islam to justify their beliefs
Ianus : …" only misrepresent"… Do you have the monopoly of not misrepresenting Isalm, Tariq?
"Ianus : Do you have children ? If you use to tell them fairy tales , so imagine I prefer the Grimms' collection to 1001 Nights"
Tariq : What does it have to do with anything?
Ianus : I saw a fairy tale under the cloak of a rational adult discourse…
Tariq : why cant you write a decent answer when it comes to THINKING?!!
Ianus : "Thinking"…Evidently Muslim thinking has almost nothing to do with logical (Aristotelian) thinking as I undertsand it.
Tariq : and answering you question, no i dont have children.
Ianus : I wish you had. You might brainwash them into becoming ‘true Muslims' withing a few days if not hours.
tariq:"HOW can a human 1400 years ago know tht at high degree burns, a humans pain receptors are destroyed, and even though they can still be poked hard and feel pain, in their muscles, tendons and bones, fire wont make them feel their skin burn?"
Inaus : Really, a man who was unable to learn how to write and read could have no idea of that. I am almsot sure he could not blieve other people were quite proficient both in writing and reading. Burning one's skin and its effects on senses is a common basic experience ever since the man found fire many thousands of years before the illeterate creator of Arabic literature appeared to proclaim man it had been unknown before…Anyway speaking of "pain receptors" how many times does the noble Quran mention Aristotle ?
Tariq : This does not answer my qestion. 1400 no human could have known the scientific facts about pain receptors in any otherway except thru a divine revelation.
Ianus : Otherwise you allegation would be false , which it evidently is. What do you as an Islamocentrist know about Greek science by the way ? … "Devine revelation"…1001 Nights story to lull human mind into blind submission…
Tariq : It was thought that the sense of feeling and pain was dependent only on the brain. Recent discoveries however prove that there are pain receptors present in the skin, without which a person would not be able to feel pain. When a doctor examines a patient suffering from
burn injuries, he verifies the degree of burns by a pinprick. If the patient feels pain, the doctor is
happy, because it indicates that the burns are superficial and the pain receptors are intact. On the other hand, if the patient does not feel any pain, it indicates that it is a deep burn and the pain receptors have been destroyed.
Prof. Tagatat Tejasen, Chairman of the Department of Anatomy at Chiang Mai University in Thailand, has spent a great amount of time on research of pain receptors. Initially he could not believe that the Qur'an mentioned this scientific fact 1,400 years ago. He later verified the translation of this particular Qur'anic verse. Prof. Tejasen was so impressed by the scientific accuracy of the Qur'anic verse, that at the 8th Saudi Medical Conference held in Riyadh on the Scientific Signs of Qur'an and Sunnah, he proudly proclaimed in public:
"There is no God but Allah and
Muhammad (pbuh) is His Messenger."
Ianus : ...And if I doubt the shahada I'll lose my professorship and my jhead...I know the story!...
Anyway, you said above that the Quran was not a book of science and now you again praise its ‘scientific accuracy'? …Non-Aristotelian logic?
How can a dead man feel anything? Have you ever seen anyone dead and yet needing a fresh skin to take a sunbath ? "A dead feeling pain" is an oxymoron ."
Tariq : ever heard the phrese hereafter?
Ianus : Never …How about you?...Don't you come from the hereafter?... A hot place to be in what?...Otherwise much better that this vale of jihad and insane accusations against Islam, what ?...Virgins, angels, wine without hangover...That's real life!!!...
… Really? … How many angels do you have and why are they needed if Allah is omnipotent and One?...You need a servant if aren't self-sufficient … "
monotheistic means believeing in one god. it has nothing to do with angels.(http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=monotheistic%20)
God does not need angels. Its us who do we are not capable to see God.
Ianus : Do you see angels ? …Don't they descend to you on the ‘Lailat al-Qadr'
Festivity to take your prayers to Allah, the Invisible ?
Tariq : It believes that God is one, and unique in His attributes.
Ianus : Why 99 names then for this unique One instead of one?
Tariq : Becasue he is unique in 99 different attitudes.(unique here means, he is the only one who can completely be described as his 99 names.)
Ianus – Why not 100 or 98 or 1001?
Tariq : Two types of plural: -
In several languages, there are two types of plurals, one is a plural of numbers to refer to something that occurs in a quantity of more than one. The other plural is a plural of respect.
a. In the English language, the Queen of England refers to herself as ‘We' instead of ‘I'. This is known as the ‘royal plural'.
Ianus : She represents and symbolizes all the English past, all the kings and queens before her so no wonder she does it."
Tariq : Yes but she is using the plural of respect, not the plural of quantity.
Ianus : Every one knows what she symbolizes . What does Allah symbolize anyway? …A bloody sword that is going to smite this world , what else?
Tariq : b. Rajiv Gandhi, the ex-Prime Minister of India used to say in Hindi "Hum dekhna chahte hain". "We want to see." ‘Hum' means ‘We' which is again a royal plural in Hindi.
Ianus : That would be a great job for Allah if He retires from his Throne one day…He can convert to Hinduism and use his plural of respect at will…He is omnipotent, you know.
Tariq : b. Rajiv Gandhi, the ex-Prime Minister of India used to say in Hindi "Hum dekhna chahte hain". "We want to see." ‘Hum' means ‘We' which is again a royal plural in Hindi.
Ianus : That would be a great job for Allah if He retires from his Throne one day…He can convert to Hinduism and use his plural of respect at will…He is omnipotent, you know.
Tariq : so you admit tht you have no arguments to support your previous claim?
Ianus : So you do say that Allah the Omnipotent can't become a Prime Minister of India?
Ianus : And still the hard fact on the ground is that "nahnu" is not "ana". Where is it stated in the Noble Quran that "nahnu" is a disguised singular?"
Tariq : 'ana' does not have plural of respect.
Ianus : Singular is not plural, is it? Or one more example of non-Arestotelian logic?
Tariq : Its not a DISGUISED singular, its just tht you have a little difficulty in understanding it(personally i think you understand me perfectly well, but as you dont have a valid argument against me, you have to write some crap)
Ianus : Thanks. Vice versa.
Tariq:"Say He is Allah the One and Only."
[Al-Qur'an 112: 1]"
Ianus : "Ianus : Who says this ? Muhammed , Gibrail or Allah?..."
Tariq : Allah thru the Quran says this.
Ianus:"If Allah does how can He speak of Himself in the third person singular?"
Tariq : Read the verse again will you? it says : "SAY(!)
Allah : "Say : …" (to whom ? )
Allah : "He …" ( who? Allah? ) "is Allah" … (= ALLAH : SAY ALLAH IS ALLAH !!!!) the One and Only" (emphasis and exclamation mark added).
How can Allah speak this way about Himself . It's bad logic, bad grammar, bad syntaxis.
I correct Allah : " O, Ye who believe! I say unto you "I am Allah, the One and Only'! Repeat it!" !
"Besides, if Allah is really omnipotent He doesn't care about the above because "Allah does what He wills." ( 2.253)"
Tariq : Allah does wot he wills? well he guides his beings to the truth.
Ianus : "His"…?...How about disbelievers and Iblis ...Are they also His?...If so we would have the following Allah "guides his beings to the truth". Disbelievers and Iblis are His beings. So Allah guides disbelievers and Iblis to the truth!!! ...Truly anti-Aristotelian and Islamic!
Tariq : thts wot he wills.
Ianus: Why care ‘about what he wills' if he omnipotent?
Tariq : and heres a translation Surah Al-Baqarah chapter 2verse 253:
"Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others:
Ianus : What? Some apostles were more clever than the others?Why? And which ones?
Tariq: To one of them God spoke;
Ianus: How so? You just said we can't see God? But we if we happen to be His apostles to hear him?...And what was Gibrail doing on that occasion?...Did he enjoy a day's holiday in a Yemeni resort centre or what?
Tariq : others He raised to degrees (of honour);
Ianus : They got the Extinguished Prophets Medal from Allah, didn't they ?
Tariq : to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs),
Ianus : No face to face speaking this time ?
Tariq : ‘and strengthened him with the holy spirit'.
Ianus : So this time it was no archnagel but the Holy Spirit, quite fascinating!!!
Tariq : If God had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other,
Ianus : Allah is a war criminal then. He instigated fratricidal warfare!!!
Tariq : after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle,
Ianus : No , it was Allah who chose to make them wrangle (2.6-7).
Tariq : some believing and others rejecting.If God had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but God Fulfilleth His plan."
(in context plz!)
Ianus : Allah's plan in context?...Allah , you war criminal, show us the context so that we could prove you're the Beneficient , the Merciful and not a sadistic monster as you describe yourself in the Mother of the Book!
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