A dialogue between a kaffir (Ianus) and and a "moderate" Muslim (Tariq)
Submitted by Ianus (Poland), Jan 26, 2006 at 12:51Ianus : What a fecund collection of Islamic wisdom! All for the "noble" cause of proving that we two kaffirs are wrong and you the Rightly-Guided Muslim are right…I wonder if you're not the imam in your local mosque?
Tariq - By Quoting some verses from the Quran u have made my work easier and only proved that all the negative beliefs ppl have about Islam are actually a result of mistranslations, lies … So Thank you Ianus
Ianus: Don't thank me so quickly… "Mistranslations" and "lies" ? …Examples , please, to prove the "facts"!
Tariq - " the Quoting of the Holy Quran without looking at the history of Islam, when and why the verses were revealed, and what verses come before and after that verse, in other words, qouting the Quran out of Context.
Ianus : How can "the last Book of Allah", the "eternal book," "the eternal miracle", the "imperishable tablet," the "Mother of the Book, the "universal book", "all the guidance that humanity needs" , "the book addressing all peoples in the world irrespective of where they live or lived , valid for all times from the very beginning of the universe untli after the Day of Judgement "- to name just a few current description of the Heavenly Quran - be grossly and sacrilegeously reduced to "when and why the verses were revealed, and what verses come before and after that verse, in other words, qouting the Quran out of Context"? You can do this trick with a human book not with the Mother of the Book if you're not one of the munafiqun ! That book is valid out of context , independent of where and when and why this or that ayat was revealed! If you relativise it and deny, you're making a clumsy human fogery out of the Quran! And this is a dangerous heresy and an inacceptable bidah! Remember the fate of Al-Ustazh Mahmud Muhammad Taha!
" Hm... A Muslim as a Muslim is ALWAYS right..."
Tariq : I didn't say that. In Fact I have said in my previous comments tht some Muslims act against Islamic laws and think that what they are doing will get them a place in heaven.
Ianus : If a Muslim disagrees on something with a kaffir, the Muslim must be ALWAYS right and the kaffir is ALWAYS wrong. This is Allah's will because Allah is the enemy of the kaffirs (2.98). Some kaffirs are unaware of this theonomical fact and try to argue with Muslims in a futile hope that a better , more reasonable argument will win. But of course it wins as long as a Muslim uses it.
"...if he says something he makes it into a "fact"...
Tariq : It is a fact tht according to Islamic principles, what Osama and Saddam have done will sent them straight to hell.
Ianus : It's your private opinion . The fact is that most Muslims have a different opinion on that and "who casts doubts on their faith leaves no doubt about his"…as I once read in one fatwa.
"If so then "Muslim" must mean a "peacemaker" !"
Tariq : So now you're trying to change the rules of Arabic?
Ianus : It's not me it's you with your folklore etymology.
Tariq : If so, what are u implying? That Muslim means peacemaker or that the word Islam DOES NOT come from the word salam meaning peace?
it doesn't matter what ur implying. ur wrong and Muslim means one who submits.
Ianus : Surely , it does. It has nothing to do with peace at all . Most Muslims's ancestors (even the Arabs) were forced at the point of the sword to embrace "submission" and "slavery" to avoid a violent death.
" The word "salam"(as 'peace', 'greeting') is used 42 times in the Quran without any connection with Islam. What is true is only the fact that both words belong to the same root (S-L-M)..."
Tariq : The salam as peace has been used in the Quran 53 times. And all of them have a connection to Islam as Quran is the primary source for Islam. Therefore ur comment was totally illogical and absurd
Ianus : My reference if you happen to care about German is below . I don't have at present the book where I read about it :
What is yours?
Besides is as-salāmu alaikum" Islam ?
[ Probably only to the extent that if a kaffir greets you this way you reply
instinctively: wa-s-sāmu 'alaikum" . Example :
A kaffir - As-salāmu alaikum, Tariq! (Peace be with you, Tariq).
A Muslim - Wa-s-sāmu 'alaikum, kaffir! (And a quick death (sam) with you, kaffir.) ]
" What is true is only the fact that both words belong to the same root (S-L-M) "
Tariq : Wrong Islam is derived from Salam itself and not just sharing the same root slm.
Ianus : Give me a quote from a solid Arabic etymological dictionary – if you can find any because I far as I know Arabic is the only language that doesn't care about its own etymology … for good reasons !!! - with author , publishing house, year , volume and page. I'll treat it as a fact. For the time being I must treat it as a pseudoscientic assertion which I can only counter by saying that Islam must derive from another meaning of the infinitive of "salama" "the stinging of a snake". There is an astonishing resemblence between how Islam and how a mamba behaves.
"Having a very good idea about something without knowing what it means sounds like 'I understand you but I don't know what you mean'."
Tariq : u said "Credo quia absurdum." to my comment: "and moderate muslims are the true muslims."
Obviously u don't agree with me therefore i have a good idea what u were trying to say. Perhaps you meant that my statement is totally false? Its not false because:
Moderate Muslims ARE the true Muslims because you don't just become a true Muslim by saying tht you're a Muslim. You have to do wot the Quran says.
Ianus : They evidently do. You don't.
Tariq : The most famous verse tht non-muslims use to prove their lies is verse 9:5 which says:
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. "
sura 9 was revealed during a war. wot do u do in a war?
Ianus : I loot, maim, kill, burn, maraud, shout "Allahu akbar" …
Tariq : kill your attackers.
Ianus : But what if I am the attacker?... It was Muhammad who started looting the caravans even during Ramadan, not the Meccans…He was the attacker at first…
Tariq : So verse 9:5 commands Muslims to kill people attacking them
Ianus : …How can any attacker find me if I "and lie in wait for them in every stratagem"?...and if I "beleaguer", I am the attacker again…so I kill the defenders…
Tariq : and 9:6 tells them to escort their enemy to safety if they want asylum.
Ianus : But what safety are you talking about? I robbed my enemy, enslaved his children and his wife , took possession of his house …The only option is either – kill him or sell him on the nearest slave market…or allow him a day or two to convert to Islam and join my marauding troops as I desperately need to replace the wounded and the killed from my own army.
Tariq : ever seen this happening anywhere else?
Ianus : You mean tribalism ?…Look around you at your Muslim brothers and you'll see it again…All tribal warfare, hatred and revengefulness even if they call each other " Islamic brothers"…
Tariq : ESCORT your mortal enemy to SAFETY?
Ianus : A brillian metaphor for "the adobe of fire" or "hell"!
Tariq : Verse 9:6
"If one amongst the Pagans asks thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge."
Ianus : Can I tell you in brief the story of Banu Quraisa ? You are a Jew , you wait for a prophet. I hear there is a prophet in the nearby town of Mecca. You invite him. He turns out not to able to write or read. He covets your women and your wealth. He turns against you and when you try to defend all things dear to you you're confronted with a mob of gangsters around him and are ESCORTED to SAFETY of the abobe of fire.
Tariq : Just like verse 9:5, verse 9:29 does not refer to non-muslims in general but the pagans of makkah who persistently violated the treaties and tried to destroy peace.
Ianus : Where is it said expressis verbis ? It was Muhammed who started robbing them. They defended themselves. Don't distort history with newly invented ‘facts'!
Tariq : The command was not general but only refers to particular groups of the Makkan idolaters and used to harass the Muslims whenever they found them helpless and when overpowered prayed for amnesty by making treaties which they used to break before their ink was dried.
verse 9:29 does not say all non-muslims should be subdued only the non-muslims who have acted like these pagans of makkah did.
Ianus : Explain that subtle difference to all the victims of Muslim terror and duplicity that have been subdued since the battle of Badr. But to put this verse in the context - at the time Muhammed relied on some non-Muslims as long he was not strong enough to get rid of them . So he just like Lenin distinguished carefully between the idiots that are "useful" and the idiots that were useful.
Tariq : And jizya should be paid by all Dhimmis. Literally Dhimmi means protected people. These people have special rights e.g. they can eat pork, drink wine, gamble, etc amongst themselves. They can even trade in these things.(even though all this is haram in Islam) and they can freely build their places of worship. Only the working dhimmis have to pay jizya, children, old ppl, disabled etc are exempt from. and jizya is very little money. Much less than wot muslims have to pay for Zakat.(another kind of tax)
Tell me one thing Ianus. Is paying tax evil?
Ianus : No, especially if the only option left for me is to have my throat cut or head smashed…By the way, I am the kaffir from the "protected people".You are my Muslim master … But who do you want to protect me against?... Against other protected and disarmed kaffirs or other armed and angry Muslims?...
"otherwise a small bland talk heard in a provincial Pakistani town"
Tariq : .have u been to pakistan? if so, than u should know one thing; just like christians who dont know christianity, and hindus who dont know hinduism, there are muslims who dont know Islam. These muslims are mostly found in poor countries like india and pakistan.
Ianus: There not so few also in the rich West like France , Spain, Britain, Denmark, Sweden , Norway, Germany, Austria, Italy,Ireland, Belgium, Holland, America, Canda, Australia.
"I see ... the overwhelming 'facts' are against me"
Tariq : thts true. only u dont know all these facts.
Ianus: How can I? I am a kaffir and as such live in total djakhilya (age of ignorance of "the facts")
"I dare make this "fact" debatable"
Tariq : Which fact? I was only saying that when it comes to Islamic laws, Quran is the most reliable source. This is because it is the primary source which all Muslims should study.
Ianus : Were it not to its inherent obscurity, puerility and contradictions that might be a reliable source.
Tariq : Only a fool will disagree with the fact that a holy script is not the most reliable source for a religion.
Ianus : Islam is not a religion like any other just like the dinosaur Tyrannosaurus Rex is not just an animal like any other. And its "holy script" differs a lot from all other Scriptures .
"The curse of Allah is on disbelievers."--2:89 Truly moderate and merciful "
Tariq : Seems like u two(Ianus and Vinodgupt) are confusing with wot god will do with wot god wants muslims to do.
Ianus : Isn't it almost the same ? Allah wants to enjoy the sadistic pleasure of eternally tormenting and molesting the kaffirs in his private hell. The Muslims want to accelerate that pleasure for Allah themselves having a good time now.
Tariq : God is the creater of this world. the universe the planets, stars and the fine tuned ecosystem and solar systems.
Ianus : But that was a bungled job ! But His Muslims !!!…that was a masterpiece of His !!! Damn, like master like servant!
Tariq : How can a human be compared to god?
Ianus : He can if he is a good Muslim human!
Tariq : How can an idol be ur god when u urself make it, pray to it and then throw it away?
Ianus : Are you referring to your Black-Stone worshippers?
Tariq : God has sent man guidance thru his books, his messengers and followers.
Ianus : Why didn't He deign to come here in person?...Old age , arthritis, poor sight …? …Busy counting kaffirs' amputed ankles, wrists and heads?... Why this childish hide-and -seek game of prophets on a fool's errand?
Tariq : And if they still continue to disobey him and commit shirk (equal someone else with Him) they will be punished by god.
Ianus: By god?... No! It's Muslim maniacs that punish and intimidate and kill them. Your Allah is an idiot's dream. Your constant ravings of Allah is sheer nonsense. It's you Muslims that kill and destroy people and make the victims believe it is not your hordes that do it but "God"…No guilt complex !... You are little allahs on eearth , maniacs and mass murders…Everyone of you is a tiny megalomaniac allah that wants to be worshipped and adored despite your ugliness and monstrosity…
Tariq : Even the bible says tht in hell ppl will burn in liquid sulfur.
Ianus : Even?… You know as a Muslim that the Bible has been abrogated by the Quran. So why quote a false source?
"Allah might simply have prevented the disbelievers from coming into being! ..."
Tariq: God has given humans something no other being has: intelligence and free will.
Ianus : Credo quia absurdissimum!
Tariq : God has allowed humans to act as they want to.
Ianus : If so why does He demand Islam(submission)? Either slavery or free will.
Tariq: This life is a test. The important thing is the life hereafter. God has allowed humans to think for themselves and to decide. Therefore no 2 humans think completely alike and have many different opinions and beliefs. In order to guide them God has revealed books like the Quran and Bible.
Ianus: If your only reality is the hereafter, what are you doing here, you ghost Moslem? Go to your only reality instead of changing this one into a nightmare with your gloomy preaching!
"Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment.""
Tariq : Thank you again Ianus. Thank you for writing this verse. Oh and thank you to you too(Vinodgupt)for quoting this verse.
Ianus: Don't thank me , thank Allah!
Tariq : In this verse God is not asking Muslims to burn any1.
Ianus : In fact! This pleasure is his!...Muslims must be satisfied with blood shedding, hanging, throwing people from towers, crucifying …Burning people is Allah's pastime.
Tariq : He will place ppl in hell (christians also believe in hell)
Ianus : Why doesn't he go to hell himself?…He's all-powerful after all, isn't he?...Allah , go to hell! Show us you can burn there too and feel what it means to be burning alive!
Tariq : this hell is for non-muslims as well muslims who don't follow Islam e.g. Osama binladen.
Ianus : …"muslims who don't follow Islam"…I have always thought that "muslims who don't follow Islam" aren't Muslims at all…Thanks for correcting my poor logic
Tariq : Read this verse again. Read slowly and think. Think and tell me how can a human 1400 years ago have thought up this sentence?
Ianus - It is no doubt one more Satanic verse like 53, 19-20 …
Tariq : Its impossible isn't?
Can u think y it's impossible?
Well i wont keep u in suspense for long.
Ianus : Do you have children ? If you use to tell them fairy tales , so imagine I prefer the Grimms' collection to 1001 Nights.
Tariq : Read the last part again. it says:
: "As often as their skins are Consumed We shall EXCHANGE them for FRESH skins THAT they may TASTE the torment"
HOW can a human 1400 years ago know tht at high degree burns, a humans pain receptors are destroyed, and even though they can still be poked hard and feel pain, in their muscles, tendons and bones, fire wont make them feel their skin burn?
Inaus : Really , a man who was unable to learn how to write and read could have no idea of that. I am almsot sure he could not blieve other people were quite proficient both in writing and reading. Burning one's skin and its effects on senses is a common basic experience ever since the man found fire many thousands of years before the illeterate creator of Arabic literature appeared to proclaim man it had been unknown before…Anyway speaking of "pain receptors" how many times does the noble Quran mention Aristotle ?
Tariq : In hell humans are already dead so they won't die again, but they will need another skin to feel pain.
Ianus : How can a dead man feel anything? Have you ever seen anyone dead and yet needing a fresh skin to take a sunbath ? "A dead feeling pain" is an oxymoron .
"Tell me why although Allah is only One and without a companion He constantly uses "we" in His monologues?"
Tariq : Perhaps the best answer is given by the IRF:-
"Islam is a strictly monotheistic religion.
Ianus : Really? … How many angels do you have and why are they needed if Allah is omnipotent and One?...You need a servant if aren't self-sufficient …
Tariq : It believes in and adheres to uncompromising monotheism.
Ianus : "Uncompromising monotheism" spares a lot of thinking, doesn't it?
Tariq : It believes that God is one, and unique in His attributes.
Ianus : Why 99 names then for this unique One instead of one?
Tariq : In the Qur'an, God often refers to Himself using the word ‘We'. But this does not mean that Islam believes in the existence of more than one God.
Ianus : It doesn't mean Allah must necessarily share Islam's view on Himself… He is omnipotent, isn't he? So He can disagree.
Tariq : Two types of plural: -
In several languages, there are two types of plurals, one is a plural of numbers to refer to something that occurs in a quantity of more than one. The other plural is a plural of respect.
a. In the English language, the Queen of England refers to herself as ‘We' instead of ‘I'. This is known as the ‘royal plural'.
Ianus : She represents and symbolizes all the English past, all the kings and queens before her so no wonder she does it. How many past dead allahs does this Quranic Allah represent?
Tariq : b. Rajiv Gandhi, the ex-Prime Minister of India used to say in Hindi "Hum dekhna chahte hain". "We want to see." ‘Hum' means ‘We' which is again a royal plural in Hindi.
Ianus : That would be a great job for Allah if He retires from his Throne one day…He can convert to Hinduism and use his plural of respect at will…He is omnipotent, you know.
Tariq : c. Similarly in Arabic, when Allah refers to Himself in the Qur'an, He often uses Arabic word 'Nahnu' meaning ‘We'. It does not indicate plural of number but plural of respect.
Ianus : And still the hard fact on the ground is that "nahnu" is not "ana". Where is it stated in the Noble Quran that "nahnu" is a disguised singular?
Tariq : Tawheed or monotheism is one of the pillars of Islam.
Ianus : One of the five clay feet on which this giant monster is standing.
Tariq : The existence and uniqueness of one and only one God is mentioned several times in the Qur'an. For instance in Surah Ikhlas, it says :
"Say He is Allah the One and Only."
[Al-Qur'an 112: 1]"
Ianus : Who says this ? Muhammed , Gibrail or Allah?...If Allah does how can He speak of Himself in the third person singular?...Does He have a split personality or what? ...Or speaks of some Superallah whose slave He himself (Allah) is?
Besides, if Allah is really omnipotent He doesn't care about the above because "Allah does what He wills." ( 2.253)
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