Had Hitler won, we would hear a Nazi version of yasemin assuring us : "There is no Jewish geoncide".
Submitted by Ianus (Poland), Apr 25, 2009 at 17:33
Some time ago you preached to us the 'virtues' of Islam , its "peacefulness" and "innocence". I replied to you showing how nonsensical your claims are. Instead of responding you jumped to another irrelevant topic. Didn't your Kemalist imam teach you a more intelligent trick to escape the unpleasant reality? Again, When confronted with Turkey's crimes you plagiarized a British website on war. I wonder what your point was? I pointed it out. You didn't deign to react either. I omit all your naive efforts of indicting my personal and moral qualities. I am perhaps not as excellent and morally outstanding a human being as you ,Moslem &Turk, are ...
> There isn't any Armenian geoncide.<
It doesn't look as a factual statement nor a theory to be discussed. A dogma to believe in ? Isn't it another plagiarism of yours?
> It was WW1.<
> Turkish Armenians united with Russian Army and betrayed tand killed their neighbours from behind and tbetrayed heir country.<
Oh, really? Who did it ? The able-bodied men had been conscripted and sent to labour batallions on the outbreak of the war. The women and children and the elderly therefore were responsible for the 'atrocities' against the Turks armed to the teeth and protected by the army stationed in the vicinity. These women children and eldrely had to be duly butchered by the armed Turks without a single trial taking place anywhere... What a splendid piece of Turkish logic and justice! My congratulations!
By the way, do you happen to know that Brusa lies circa 1000 km away from the then war zone and so the Armenians had no chance to see a single Russian. But still they were accused as well on the same trumped-up charges that they "united with the Russian Army" and were slaughtered just as the Armenians living close to the war zone , also without a single trial , a single evidence and a chance to have a fair hearing. Turkish "justice", you know.
So whom do you want to fool with that nauseating pro-Turkish BS ? ... I know ...you just quote your Turkish history textbook version, don't you? You are unable to critically think about it and prefer not even to try to. Not with the kind of 'education' you have received in Turkey where it's too dangerous to question the official versions of anything , what ? You Turks are born conformists. You are not allowed to verify the official pleasing lies and angrily forbid us to do so, you slaves of your corrupt and lying Oriental despotism.
> The only thing to do was to remove these Armenians away from Russians and from the battle ground to the interior lands.<
You are remarkably well informed ... How about one small detail again ? The deportations affected first the 6 Eastern vilayets in which or in the vicinity of which hostilities took place. The measure looks at first glance justified ... but they were soon expanded and affected the whole of Anatolia. What sense does it make to "remove" Armenians from Aidyn or Brusa which lie a thousand kilometres away from where the Russians were even in 1917 after all their successes in order to bring them in place also distant c. 1000 km from the Russians ? Tell me, Turkish logician !
> During the war it was dangerous ofcourse but also the only solution for our defense.<
What "solution" was it ? Turks suffered one disaster after another, whole armies were annihilated by the Russians whom the scenes of Turkish bestiality against the Armenian women and children they encountered only enraged and made pitiless towards the Turk ? They only made Turkey's case hopeless and eventually the committee leaders got funky the Russians would skin them for what they had done to the Christians. Long before the capitulation all of them fled in panic. Enver ended as a Soviet officer but defected his masters who punished him as he deserved. His alleged body has been solemnly unearthed re-buried in Constantinople.
> During this mass removal about 300.000 Armenian died.<
Is it again what your Turkish history books say or is your own invention, Turkish plagirizer ?
At the beginning of 1917 the German correspondent of "Kölnische Zeitung" Harry Stuermer , who had been an eye witness to the massacres and all their concommitant brutalities and curiosities described what he had seen as " a war of extermination in which half a million men, and according to some estimates many more, have perished, while the remaining one and a half million [...] see nothing but complete extinction staring them in the face through the rupture of family ties, the deprivation of their rights, and economic ruin." [Two years in Constantinople, London/New York 1917, p. 51 . It's freely available online.]
Dr. Stuermer was there as a representative of an allied nation. He saw , he inquired , he verified his sources. He estimated 500 000 people murdered within a year and half. You weren't there , you hardly ever check your sources, hardly investigate anything and give 300 000...? However, I realize it's a huge progress compared to the times where no dead Armenians were admitted at all by the Turks.
>Some were killed (and Armenians killed all their neighboıurs, cut womens organs, childs faces), some died from hunger . <
A Turk on this forum quoted one such case. But it turned to be trumped-up and -if true- belonged to a different epoch. What are your "Turkish genocide" sources beside those invented by the Turkish Ministry of Propaganda and Turks like the one I mean ?
In the meantime Stuermer observed that the extermination of the Armenians in Armenia was just the beginning. "The Turkish Government went farther, much farther. They aimed at the whole Armenian people, not only in Armenia itself, but also in the " Diaspora," in Anatolia Proper and in the capital. They were at that time some hundred thousand. In this case they could scarcely go on the principle of " evacuation of the war zone," for the inhabitants were hundreds of miles both from the Eastern front and from the Dardanelles, so they had to resort to other measures.
They suddenly and miraculously discovered a universal conspiracy among the Armenians of the Empire. It was only by a trick of this kind that they could succeed in carrying out their system of exterminating the entire Armenian race. The Turkish Government skilfully influenced public opinion throughout the whole world, and then discovered, nay, arranged for, local conspiracies. They then falsified all the details so that they might go on for months in peace and quiet with their campaign of extermination.
In a series of semi-official articles in the newspapers of the Committee of Young Turks it was made quite clear that all Armenians were dangerous conspirators who, in order to shake off the Ottoman yoke, had collected firearms and bombs and had arranged, with the help of English and Russian money, for a terrible slaughter of Turks on the day that the English fleet overcame the armies on the Dardanelles. [...] Here I can only give my final judgment on all these pros and cons, and say to the best of my knowledge and opinion, that after the first act in this drama of massacre and death — the brutal " evacuation of the war zone " in Armenia Proper — the meanest, the lowest, the most cynical, most criminal act of race- fanaticism that the history of mankind has to show was the extension of the system of deportation, with its wilful neglect and starvation of the victims, to further hundreds of thousands of Armenians in the Capital and and Interior. And these were people who, through their place of residence, their surroundings, their social status, their preoccupation in work and wage- earning, were quite incapable of taking any active part in politics.
Others of them, again, belonged to families of high social standing and culture, bound to the land by a thousand ties, coming of a well-to-do, old-established stock, and from traditional training and ordinary prudence holding themselves scrupulously apart from all revolutionary doings. All were surrounded by a far superior number of inhabitants belonging to other races.
This diabolical crime was committed solely and only because of the Turkish feeling of economic and intellectual inferiority to that non-Turkish element, for the set purpose of obtaining handsome compensation for themselves [...]
Of this long chain of crime I saw at least the beginning thousands of times with my own eyes." [ ibidem, p. 55-58]
Yes, Dr. Stuermer saw it. He saw also the nonsensicality of the Turkish assertions [ "Armenians killed all their neighboıurs, cut womens organs, childs faces ] :
" And yet I would willingly have gone so far for the benefit of the Turks, in spite of their terrible guilt towards this people, as perhaps to keep my own counsel on the subject, if it had merely been a case of the execution of some hundreds under martial law or the carrying out of other measures — such as deportation — against a couple of thousand Armenians and these strictly confined to men. It is even possible that Europe and America would have pardoned Turkey for taking even stronger steps in the nature of reprisals or measures of precaution against the male inhabitants of that part of Armenia Proper which was gradually becoming a war zone. But from the very beginning the persecutions were carried on against women and children as well as men, were extended to the hundred thousand inhabitants of the six eastern vilajets, and were characterised by such savage brutality that the methods of the slave-drivers of the African interior [...] are the only thing that can be compared with them.' [Ibidem, p.52-53]
>And everybody was starving.<
If you exterminate the most productive part of the population , let their fields, workshops , cattle, tools and houses be looted and ravaged by lousy surrounding Turks, and have a greedy criminal gang in power that amasses riches by speculating on food deficits and devaluated paper money, what else can you expect ? Famine and chronic deficits were a result of the Turkish misgovernment, of nothing else. Not even war time can be blamed for the scale of this traditional misgovernment. Germany had also a hard time during the war but nothing comparable to teh Turkish cesspool. And Anatolia is fertile enough and can feed more people than those living there ... on one conditions these people are not 'Turks'.
>Situation was the same for everyone, no food, no money, real poverty.<
As to food, there were bread tickets since 1915 favouring the Moslems. The Armenians were not entitled to them. Europeans and Greeks were also discriminated. So it wasn't "the same for everybody".
As to poverty and lack of money it was -as always in the Orient- all the work of the ruling clique which accumulated unheard-of riches and mountains of gold. This time the Turks can blame no "Armenians" that had been sent on death marches. Stuermer explains :
" What I do mean is the huge semi-official cornering of food, which must be regarded as typical of the Young Turks' idea of their official responsibility towards those for whom they exercised stewardship.
The " Bakal Clique " (" provision mer- chants," " grocers ") was known through the whole of Constantinople, and was keenly criticised by the much injured public. It was, first of all, under the official patronage of the city prefect, Ismet Bey, a creature of the Committee ; but later on, when they realised that dire necessity made a continuance of this system of cornering quite unthinkable, he was made the scapegoat, and his dismissal from office was freely commented on in the Committee newspapers as
Hundreds of thousands of Turkish pounds were turned into cash in the shortest possible time by this semi-official syndicate, at the expense of the starving population, and found their way into the pockets of the administrators. That was how the Young Turkish parvenus were able to fulfil their one desire and wriggle their way into the best clubs, where they gambled away huge sums of money.
The great stock of goods, however, was sold secretly at exorbitant prices by the creatures of the *' Bakal Clique," who simply cornered the market. That is how it hap- pened that in Constantinople, cut off as it was from the outer world and without imports, even at the end of 1916, with a population of well over a million, there were still unlimited stores of everything available for those who could pay fancy
> Our soldiers had no weapons, one for ten, no food, once a day, no shoes, fighting barefood. <
The same corrupt Turkish mismanagement prevailed in the military administration. Food and shoes were for those who could pay - at best with gold as paper money had little or rather value. No soldiers had money so they got nothing. Blame for their light your Turkish government whose worthy continuator was Ghazi Mustafa Kemal.
> Ottoman Empire had came to its end. When our war was over and we established our Turkish Republic, Turkey was left only 13 million, half of them ill because of the war and hunger.<
Turkey had always been a sick man of Europe. And 'sick' in the literal physical sense. One saw before 1914 - " the incredible destitution in Anatolia, the devastation wrought by syphilis, malaria, and other terrible dirt diseases, abortions as a result of hopeless poverty [...]" [ ibidem, p. 185]
> We had nothing left and had to establish everything from the begining.<
"Establish everything from the begining" is part of the offcial tale. You had inherited huge Armenian and Greek wealth. Ture, you wasted it. You inhertited the Moslem soul and megalomania. It's what Kemal built his jingoistic paradise on. He was a continuator of the Young Turks and put their program in practice.
> We were in debt and paid them all to European countries.
What did you pay to Germany , your main creditor , if I may ask ? And the Soviet debt , your next savior? ... I see. You didn't pay Germany . With Soviet gold your paid the Entente powers to appease and misuse them playing them off against Bolshevik Russia... In short, as always you, Turkish swindlers, cheated all and gloated over your bloody swag.
>There is nothing as Armenian Genocide.
If you say that there is, you may go to prison for three years on charges of denigrating Turkishness. I know it and you know it. Your local imam keeps telling it , doesn't he? So why all this comedy of arguments that have no value at all ? Tell us openly, dear readers on Daniel Pipes Forum, as a Turk I can't but deny the Armenian Genocide. Living in a police state like Turkey one has to be careful of what one writes and speaks. A day in a Turkish prison is a hell, let alone three years ...
> There was a war. And Armenians fought against Turkey.<
Russians also fought against Turkey. Why didn't you exterminate them ? ... I see ... You knew they would eventually fight for Turkey ? Besides, the one can exterminate only a defenceless nation.
> Tashnak Party, told the same those days, which can be read at Soviet Archives.<
You know the Soviet archives? ... Quote them !!! I enjoy reading Russian documents!
The Volunteer Armenian Corps that was fighting in the Russian Army was composed of Russian subjects of Armenian origin. The Turks mobilized all able-bodied Armenian men between 15-45 but sent them to labour batallions and on death marches instead.
Didn't you read about that in the Soviet archives or about the bestialities of the Kemalists against Dashnak Armenian during the war in September-December 1920 ? You should. Fine reading ! The Soviets were so nice to Kemal after all. The best they had - tsarist gold, tsarist weapons, bolshevik military and propaganda specialists - was given to Kemal who used all of it the same way Enver Pasha and Talaat Pasha had done with the German help. Talaat boasted " In a year I did more to solve the Armenian question than Abdul Ahmid in 30 years." Kemal boasted : "We finished them off at last".
> There is a very big chorus shouting about genocide, but being loud and crowded cannot change the truth.<
I wonder how many Nazis would shout today "There is no Jewish genocide" if Hitler had won the war ? 70 mln Turks are a huge horde. And they are shouting exactly the same nightmarish fairy tale about the good Turkish murderer killer and the bad Armenian victim you have shouted here, ...!
Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".
Reader comments (529) on this item
Comment on this item
You can help support Daniel Pipes' work by making a tax-deductible donation to the Middle East Forum. Daniel J. Pipes