The Islamic captivity of the Church
Submitted by Ianus (Poland), May 13, 2009 at 17:56
Hi, TruthWFree !
Thanks a lot for your thoughts and remarks. I really respect your beliefs and have no intention to offend you or change them.
Let me say a few things by way of commenting to you.
> To give you a little more info, I myself am a 65 year old Catholic Christian. I have studied the Gospels thoroughly, plus read Acts and St. Paul's letters and Revelations several times, and have read the Old Testament through one time.<
I have also read the Bible , partly even in Greek, and found many parts of it quite interesting and historically very valuable. Yet, I am far from being convinced it can be used to explain things in this world , let alone help predict the future.
> I have also read the Quran in its entirety and many books on what the Quran says (mostly by authors Robert Spencer, Bat Yeor, Walid Shoebat, Ibn Warraq, Emir and Ergun Caner, Mark Gabriel, Robin Wright (islam apologist) and others). Spencer is very good because he uses statements by Islamic imans and the Hadiths to support his conclusions.<
These are very important and good authors and their opinions weigh in gold , as one says here. I think we will not have much disagreement on what Islam stands for and what it is after.
> I have been completely puzzled by this Pope especially since his quote of Manuel II Paleologus relative to Muhammad's bringing "things only evil and inhuman". The statement was correct, but when the Pope then backed down in face of Islamic outrage, I felt he gave credibility to Islam and he should never have made the statement.<
I had also some hopes after his predecessor's erratic fawning on Islam and dhimmitude bordering on high treason. But what I saw in Benedict XVI was a weak scared worshipper of martyrs for the right cause not ready in the least to play the role of a martyr although he must known that right was on his side and one mustn't betray the right cause. Another thing I reproach him with in this respect is what I'd call 'the infallibility trap'. The pope's office is unhappily tied to the dogma of papal infallibility. What John Paul II did and said was mad and anti-Christian. But the pope is "infallible". Not to imperil that harmful dogma the next pope can't reject his powerful predecessor's position. If he did, the question would arise at once : "How so? The other pope kissed the Quran and this one quotes good sources to show the evil and inhuman in this very book ? Is the infallible pope quite fallible? " I wish the popery recalled the ancient proverb "Errare human est" = "It's human to err" instead of sticking to the ancient error that makes rejecting wrong things almost impossible.
> Surely he knew he would put Christians at risk to Islamic violence and that should have been part of his evaluation before making the statement.
The Moslems will find hundreds of other excuses to put Chrsitians in danger. What was at stake was right vs. wrong , freedom vs. slave mentality , truth vs. lie and the pope as usually made his choice guided by opportunistic considerations and apologized to the forces of evil and obscurantism instead of resisting them. And now with his fawning upon evil Islam he is sinking deeper and deeper in this dreadful quagmire dragging more than 1 bln credulous people behind him into the Islamic captivity of the Church.
> As a person of faith in Jesus Christ, I look at this differently than you do as I believe you indicated you are atheist, <
I'd call myself rather an agnostic.
> but you probably have some understanding of my view through knowledge of your father's faith basis.<
Sure, I was brought up as a Catholic and formally have never left it although spiritually I cound't stand further from it. But on the practical level I don't mind going to church at Easter or Christmas. I am happy people here are never violent when Catholicism is criticized for its daily abuses. They may be angry from time but they live and let live. I don't need more and find it great enough.
> Christ in the Gospels leaves no doubt for me that He said he was God's Son and that "no one comes to the Father (and eternal life) except through Him". Also supported by the statements, "the Father and I are one" and "you have seen me, you have seen the Father". There was no violence in His teachings, only commands to "love one another" and to "forgive seven times seventy".<
Agreed. The message is peaceful and not in the inverted Moslem sense : "War is peace".
> Muhammad come along 600 years later and said Jesus (Isa) never said he was allah's son and gives no credence to Jesus teachings of love and forgiveness, basically saying the Gospels are a lie (unless of course, Allah is really Satan). Jesus said that Satan was the father of all lies and that is my feel or theory about Muhammad's revelations; that Muhammad did have a supernatural revelation, but it was the devil rather than the angel Gabriel. Muhammad first though he was possessed by a demon but his wife convinced him it was Gabriel. I personally believe he did have a supernatural vision (from Satan) because of the intensity that he pursued his religion and the blindness (to logic) and rabid rage of many of his Muslim followers. Not saying he didn't make some stuff up on his own.<
I am not sure about the metaphysical part of your explanation. The fact is that Muhammad's was a disturbed and epileptic mind. To think that such a psychopath founded such a powerful religion makes one despise mankind.
> I am beginning to think that the anti-christ will come from Islam and that we are approaching the end as prophesized in Revelations, Ezekial and Daniel, but then I am sure that that same thought came to mind with many Christians during the Roman persecutions of the first three centuries AD, the reign of the Ottoman Empire, WWI and WWII, and possibly the Soviet Empire.<
Leaving apart the historical realities and their Christian version, it's unquestionable that Islam is the most demonic force at present and its historic record of crime is unsurpassed by any other force - including fascism and communism. Fascism lasted 12 years, bolshevism 70 , Islam has been raging for 1400 years and there is no end of the nightmare in sight. Quite the contrary. The final rage and blood orgy of "the religion of peace" seems to be approaching.
> I do feel we have a fairly large scale degeneration of moral values in the west (measured against Christ's teachings as a moral base) and if you read the history of the Bible, Israel's defeat and exile to Assyria and Babylon were both considered by the Old Testament writers to be God's punishment for the error of their ways.<
I find the Biblical explanation quite unsatisfactory and historically false. The cause of the fall of the ancient Jewish state was political in nature - the rise of the neighbouring powers after their decline in the 12-10 centuries - Egypt, Assyria, Babylon grew in power and expanded and against them the small Jewish state couldn't resist in the field. But what this state did accelarated the final disaster. False external alliances were concluded aggravated by ever increasing internal strife within the Jewish community - the divisions and conflicts between central power and provinces led to the disruption of the unity under Salomon's heirs and the emergence of two hostile states of Judea and Israel. Furthermore, the despotic power of the Levites' priesthood and opposition to the royal power meant weakening the state's military capabilities and political efficiency. Stringent monotheism imposed with force by the Levites at the expense of local and foreign cults estranged and antagonized all neighourng states againt teh Jews including potential allies threatened by common enemies -be their Egyptians or Assyrians or Babylonians. And the power struggles within the priesthood itself for the office of high priest and the offices at the Temple and at the Court diverted attention and resources needed to cope with external challanges. All of that undermined and eroded the Jewish state from within. And when the enemies appeared under the walls of Jerusalem it was too late to save the old independence , nay the very presence of Jews in Jehova's land.
> I believe that our western morals values are basically Christian based (and Old Testament Ten Commandments) and we are forgetting where they originated and many believe we came by them via human logic and reason.<
I disagree. Our morals are as much of Hellenic origin as they are Christian. I myself prefer Aristotle to St. Paul or St. Augustin and Homer to the Gospels.
> I would have to argue against that just by looking at some of the old non Biblical and pre Christian societies where child sacrifice, temple prostitution, Roman gladiator games, Mayan virgin sacrifice, and such do not exist in contemporary society because of Bible (Christian) teachings. You probably disagree with me on this thought.<
Yes, I do without willing to undermine our unity and friendship in the fight against Islam.
Somehow the introduction of Christian morals and laws led to highly questionable results which I have briefly outilned in another comment of mine.
> At any rate, the Pope's respect of Islam gives me great cause for alarm, unless of course as one writer in USAToday indicated, that maybe he has the same respect that I have for a cobra or a nuclear device.<
Can one reasonably speak of "respect" refering to "snakes" and "nuclear divices" at all, hear friend ? Let's not mix up "fear" and "respect"! I respect and admire my ancient history professor for he is such a fascinating , wise and warm fellow. Can I say "I respect this bearded cut-thoart because I have seen him cut off the head of a neighbour of ours on a video put on the net recently by the Muslim brotherhood operating in the neighbourhood " ?
Anyway, doesn't your alarm tell you your pope might betray you one day ? I just pose a question as a thought experiment . Every time I hear a politician talk about respect for Muslims and mouthe eulogies of Islam I have the impression I am seeing a traitor of all that near and dear to me and a prospective renegade.
> By the way, Google Mark Gabriel. He was an Islamic teacher (iman) at Egypt's Al Azhar University and he converted to Christianity. His father tried to kill him. He wrote Jesus and Muhammad, comparison of the two founders. He found truth in Christ.<
Thanks for the link. I respect deeply this brave man who abandoned the evil death cult at such a risk. Definitely , we desperately need more ex-Moslems and fewer Moslems.
> I would ask you to reconsider Christianity. You can't look at the errors of the humans who claim they follow him, you have to look at the founder, the writings of the Gospels and Acts, His miracles, and how something so profound could be a hoax.<
Nietzsche remarked on Jesus whom he respected as an exceptionally noble human being : "Had he lived longer he would have recanted his doctrine. he was noble enough to see and accept his mistakes."
> I myself look to Peter's statement when many left Christ because of his statements about "eating his flesh and drinking his blood". Peter said, "where shall we go Lord, you have the words of eternal life".<
I myself think of His last words " Father, why hast thou forsaken me?" as supporting Niezsche's thought best. Jesus understood he was wrong but it was too late to explain it to the world around him hungry for miracles, heavenly kingdoms and a good father to take care of the children with unloving parents. I suspect it was the most tragic moment in his whole career.
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