For the Turk a 'pro-Turkish' absurdity is welcome, an 'anti-Turkish' fact is unacceptable .
Submitted by Ianus (Poland), Apr 19, 2009 at 18:03
Tugba wrote :
> First of all Turkey is ally of Western world even during the Ottoman Era.<
Are we to understand that Vienna was besieged in 1529 and 1683 by an Austrian ally ? And at Mohacs it was the same Western ally that imposed Islam upon Hungary - a Western country by all its culture - and was marching on to islamize the West as a good ally of the same West ? And in 1453 it was this ally doing a favor to France , Venice, the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, wasn't it ? ...
You Turks are ingenious as far pseudo-historical fairy tales are concerned. Just two generations ago you were 90-95% illiterate. Kemal taught you how to write and read . But he forgot to teach you how to use your brains to avoid absurdities. Hence for the Turk a pro-Turkish absurdity is welcome and preferable to an anti-Turkish fact. He feels happy glorifying Turkey and is infuriated when hears criticism. For both reactions no much intellectual effort and abstract thinking are required.
> Some of you have forgotten that when Spain executed those Jews because of their religion it was Turkey who welcomed them.<
They were rayas like all other non-Moslems, subject to the same discrimination and lawlessness at the hand of the Moslem master race. What made them different was that they had no recollections of lost state and fatherland and no political ambitions which was used by the ruling caste to play them off against the more restless Christian rayas with dangerous memories of their past freedom and statehood.
> Again some of you underestimate that Armenian people in Ottoman Empire came into very important offices, which was close to the emperor himself. But they betrayed the emperor in the end.<
The problem was that first the Armenians like the Greeks were mostly literate and educated while the Ottomans weren't. In the Ottoman language "Turk" was a synonym for an "illiterate barbarian". And it was as profitable as it was dangerous to hold an office at the sultan's court. These raya officials were the obvious scapegoats when things went wrong. They usually ended their careers being accused of treason and executed or banned, their property confiscated. And as Ottoman affairs went from bad to worse more and more scapegoats were needed. Rayas had no legal protection. And a sultan's or vizir's favour was as uncertain as a Turkish victory over the Russian army.
> Armenian citizens of Turkey found new allies in the West <
A while ago you praised Turkey that it was a Western ally. Now you blame the Armenians for the very thing that you have praised the Turks. Where is your consistency?
> with the promises of freedom after Greeks and Bulgarians. Russia in this case played major role along with England and France.<
All the Ottoman "reforms" turned out to be a farce. They didn't improve anything, just hid this or that abuse. Massacres and lawlessness against the rayas continued although the constitution and Western-oriented penal codes were introduced. The Ottoman empire was irreformable and incurably ill.
What should the Armenians have done according to you if they wanted to survive ? But, no! You Turks gave them no right to survive in this glorious Moslem paradise ruled by "the Shadow of Allah on Earth".
> After Russian Revolution, they were the same Western allies of Turkey who promised Ottomans to protect territorial integrity of the empire as well as dividing the Ottoman Empire by secret treaties. To whom Ottomans trust then? Of course Germany who has never betrayed Ottomans like the others did. Presence of these secret treaties subject to Ottoman Empire's division can be found every historic documentations. In the international relations this is called " balance of power" instead of treachery.<
Now tell us what the stipulations of the German-Turkish treaty were upon which Turkey entered the war in November 1914 ! Tell us about the great Pan-Turkic empire stretching from the Adriatic to Tien Shan! Tell us what Turkey gained at Brest Litovsk in March 1918! And what were the Turkish troops doing in September of the same year in Baku? Turkey provoked the Entente by allying herself with Germany. Her mad ambitions were the main cause of her demise. It was not the Russians that declared war on Turkey, but Turkey that declared fully-fledged jihad on Russia.
> When it comes to so called Armenian genocide issue, it is not true.<
What does Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code say? Admitting the genocide would get you 3 years in jail and other unpleasant consequences, Turkish "historian" , what ? In a country where freedom of speech and thought doesn't exist discussing things like the Armenian genocide with a Turk is like a tragicomic farce. The Turks mustn't admit anything because they will be terrorized by their police if they do. Can't you see what sort of monstrous things you are standing for, Turk ?
> Have you ever heard of a village called Hocali in Van? <
Aren't you mixing ( or rather making) up things? Hocali is in Karabakh far from Van and is famous from a different period (1992).
> This village once inhabited by the Muslim people of Ottoman Empire and destroyed totally by Armanian militia operated in the region during WW1. <
If there were cases of Armenian resitance they were acts of despair and self-defense. First , upon entering WWI all able-bodied Armenians were moblized and sent to labour batallions. Those who were left were mostly unfit for fighting. And the only rational tactics the Armenians could adopt was to wait for Russians to come and put an end to this Ottoman hell. The Russians were winning, were advancing. But alas they rarely managed to arrive on time.
Anyway, I am ready to admit that at first no massacres were planned by the Turk. A swift victory over the Russians in the Caucasus and the jihad in the Russian rear combined with brilliant German victories in Poland and East Prussia would finish off Russia. But after the Sarykamysh disaster of December 1914 (the whole Caucasian Army was annihilated by the Russians) Enver needed scapegoats for his failures. The disarmed, weak Armenians were the obvious victim. This is the principal reason why the genocide was so effective.
> In war time Ottoman Empire have to make a decision to solve Armanian militia issue in the East of the empire. So they decided to deport Armanian citizens to other provinces of the empire in the south. Some of the people deported were children and elders and they died during the journey. Some of them died because of the attacks even though they were given protection by limited and bad equiped Ottoman soldiers.<
"The German Consul from Mosul related, in my presence, at the German club at Aleppo that, in many places on the road from Mosul to Aleppo, he had seen children's hands lying hacked off in such numbers that one could have paved the road with them. In the German hospital at Ourfa there was a little girl who had had both her hands hacked off. [...] In many Christian houses in Aleppo I found Armenian girls hidden who by some chance had escaped death; either they had been left lying exhausted and had been taken for dead when their companions had been driven on, or, in other cases, Europeans had found an opportunity to buy the poor creatures for a few marks from the last Turkish soldier who had violated them. All these girls showed symptoms of mental derangement: many of them had had to watch the Turks cut their parents' throats. I know poor things who have not had a single word coaxed out of them for months, and not a smile to this moment."
It is what a German teacher - Dr. Martin Niepage -, loyal to Germany's wartime ally Turkey, witnessed. I think it's the best comment on the sweet pro-Turkish nonsense that you are trying to sell to us.
> In fact Armanians in Istanbul in 1915 continued their prosperious life without any interuption.<
And the 24.05.1915 arrests and deportations of Armenian intellectuals that started the genocide? Constantinople with a host of neutral and allied diplomats and journalists was a particular case. Here massacres couldn't be done secretly like in the mountains and valleys of Eastern Anatolia on the dester roads of Syria.
In Smyrna the Armenians were saved at first by the courageous intervention of the German consul von Spee. But they were all masscred by Kemal's hordes in September 1922, many burnt alive in their own churches. Kemal was a continuator of the Young Turks. He finished what they had started.
> In fact they still live as the richest families in Turkey, and practice their religions in their churces freely.<
They can practice their religion "freely" if they are lucky enough to escape Turkish patriots who plan to murder their patriarch.
> When we compared the position of Muslems in the West they are the freest people in the world. Nothing is one sided when you accuse someone of something, to be neutreal you must understand the other side as well. Please make some research before writing your accusations about so called Armenian genocide.
The other side happens to be the perpetrator's side, a very non-neutral side to start with. But just as a thought experiment, what genocide/massacre/murder/crime have your virtuous Turks ever committed? Constantinople 1453 ?... A great day of Ottoman glory, what? ... The Bulgarian horrors of 1876? A lie ? ...The massacres of the Armenians between 1894-1896 ? Another lie? ... We know about the Armenian genocide ... Smyrna 1922 ? ... I see Kemal said the Greeks/Armenians killed themselves and burned the city forgetting though to burn the Turkish quarters ...The atrocities gainst the Kurds ? Another lie? ... And the Turkish "truth" ? Turks have always been the "victims"...
It's so common today for every criminal to represent himself as the victim. But they usually blame the society. The Turks blame the victims they murdered.
> All can be found in Ottoman Archieves as well as Russian Archieves.<
Yes, there was even a trial of the Young Turks based on these archives after the Allies had occupied Constantinople. I read Russian documents and they are horrifying in details of the diabolical Ottoman cruelty. Anyway, wasn't it the reason that Russia acknowledged the Armenian genocide without any tricks and reservations like the US where few care to read anything for which they are not paid ? And Turks pay well their apologists and propagandists , don't they ?
A personal question I ask out of curiosity. Are you spreading this pro-Turkish rubbish for free or are you paid by some Turkish ministry or institution ?
> And please don't forget to check Armanian Archives too.<
You know that Armenia as a state didn't exist when the genocide was being most actively carried out. It was a Russian gouvernement. Its documents can be very useful on the Kemalist period of the genocide , especially the Kemaist atrocities commited during the Turkish-Armenian war of September-December 1920. Otherwise, all the documents from Armenia went to Moscow.
>I am telling this to the historians who wants to evoluate this neutreally. If it were true, none of the countries wouldn't hesitate to accept so called Armanian genocide for sure.<
Don't tell us more of your fairy tale, Turk. What you are after is whitewashing your dirty Kemalist Turkey at any price. You don't care about anything else, least of all the historical truth. Your Ataturkestan is built upon some fundamnetal myths which such things as the Armenian genocide debunk. Hence your frenetical obstinacy and rage when confronted with historical reality. This is all reinforced by your Moslem superiority feelings towards us us kafirs.
> President of the United States pushed the matter to Armania and Turkey instead of declaring the so called genocide.<
If Hitler had won the war the US president would be now consulting Nazi historians and organizing joint Jewish-Nazi committees to find out what 'really' happened. The US is a corrupt state and its silence on the genocide is a shameful chapter of its history. But things change and not all ready to serve the evil cause of Turkey and Islam.
> Turkey is the first and for a long time only country that recognized Israel after 15 May 1948.<
You are caught red-handed again manipulating facts to glorify your Ataturkestan. Turkey was the first MOSLEM country to recognize Israel and for a long time it was the the only MOSLEM country to do so. This makes things quite different, doesn't it?
Turkey recognized Israel on March 28, 1949. The first country to formally (de jure) recognize Israel was the USSR - May 17, 1948.
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