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again, apostasy does not equal treason

Reader comment on item: Counting Islamists
in response to reader comment: Historical Examples of Apostasy and Treason

Submitted by the Grand Infidel of Kaffiristan (Australia), Nov 3, 2008 at 05:16

Keith Williams tries to explain that apostasy in religion is the same as treason

"... These apostates committed treason. Just like the south in the U.S. Do you follow me now??? "

Keith, you are very easy to follow. However, your reasoning is twisted. We were talking initially how Apostates in Islam are (up to this day) are subjected to severe punishments up to and inclding death in Islamic states. We both know we were were not talking about the American Civil war or what happened in Arabia in the 7th Century.

I'll reiterate: Apostates may be seen as traitors to their religion - but that is definitely not treason. Treason is a political offence against a state.

"........When you look in non-Muslims countries you see more crimes and bad things happening than in Muslim countries. I don't see you blaming it on the religion of those countries."
So which countries and religions are we talking about ?? I've never heard of the Republic of the Christian United States of America, or Republic of the Buddhist United States of America, or Republic of the Atheist United States of America or the Republic of the Pagan United States of America or the Republic of the Hindu United States of America. Have you? As you'll know you'll find America is a colourful tapestry of every school of belief and philosophy.

No doubt you'd like that colourful tapestry to become a monotonous brown rug. As Dhimmi said quite rightly - one of his best quotes - 'Islam is no good for America - but America is good for any religion'. The erroneous and false in any philosophy/religion is held up to examination in the West, the crap is exposed. The good is seen and noted. If you don't like the cut and thrust of this - then that's too bad. You can't have a special magic ring thrown around Muslims and say 'our beliefs are sacred - you can't examine us or criticise us or point out the many and sundry absurd beliefs ad practices . We're special.'

Of course I've said things against Muslims and Islam. I could have said much, much more. But which bit didn't you like ?

I wrote

"Islam has NOTHING that hasn't already been covered by major world religions."
Also:
"There are many reasons why not, one being the bias (rightly or wrongly) against muslim culture - largely brought about by the actions of Muslims themselves in their own countries. Historically we have precedents in Spain and the attempted Ottoman invasion of Europe. More recently we see the actions of Muslim governments and complicit Imams in Iran supplying arms and support for Hezbollah in lebanon and other places.We saw the Mujahadeen in Chechnya and the Serbian/Bosnian(Albanian) war (if you get a chance see Yugoslavia - the Avoidable War).

We saw British born Muslims caught in training camps in Afghanistan, people celebrating in the streets across the Muslim world when 9/11 occurred and again in Iraq when the bodies of slain US troops were dragged through a town, stripped naked, hoisted on a bridge and set on fire to the delight of screaming crowd.

We see public executions that pass as entertainment for the masses - people jeering as unfortunate victims take their last breath on the end of a rope. People who either would not be charged with a crime or commit crimes that deserve merely a fine or a short-term incarceration

activistchat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=31505

and watch the video on

http://www.rottengods.com/2007/07/death-by-strangulation-allah-is-great.html

We saw and continue to see women stoned to death for having affairs!

We hear them trying to justify the aberrant sex life of its 'prophet'.
We saw the screaming masses in near apoplexy, setting fire to buildings and with a rampant uncontrolled hatred toward the West and its people after a cartoonist pens a drawing showing an imaginary Mohammed, whose face no Muslim alive now would ever recognise.

We wonder - what kind of people are these? What sort of religion allows these things to happen and does not speak out vociferously against it?"

So which bit did you react to? Pity you can't put the Special Magic Muslim protection Ring around the news media isn't it ?

This process is going to be the same in most Western countries which have a vibrant political system and social freedom.

But it is not the same for straightjacketed religio/politico monocultures which do not progress - as they do not allow the psychological freedom to their citizens to make other choices, have other beliefs - or even allow them the freedom to do the wrong thing.

Your reference to the pdf file showing "Total recorded crime per 100,000 population" proves nothing. The definition of 'crime' was not given. For example most Muslimcountries are quite backward in many ways. There aren't many shopping malls in Pakistan for example (btw, Pakistan was not even on the list in the pdf file) . So there's not going to be too many heavy duty shopstealing charges when most of the goods are low value for example. And it's hard to rob banks in countries where banks are few and far between. Also, many Islamic countries, as you know, have far different criteria for what constitues a crime - just this weekend a13 year old girl was stoned to death in Somalia for her 'crime' of sleeping with some guy. And murder as we saw is not a capital crime under Sharia law - it's something that can be worked out amongst the relatives apparently - so how do you know the figures are accurately recorded?

And severe deterrents such as cutting off hands for shopstealing or getting whipped for drinking alcohol or imprisoned for kissing a girl late at night on a beach in Saudi Arabia or listening to music (in the case of Afghanistan under the Taliban ) is going to cower the populace from certain actions - for sure.

But it does nothing for reducing psychological tensions in society generally - or thinking you're living in a safe , humane world does it?

".... I don't here you saying, man, Christianity or other religions suck!!!"

Is that what you'd like me to say? Ignorance sucks and enforced ignorance under the guise of a religion sucks even more.

The west allows a multiplicity of religions - that is one of its strengths.

Submitting....

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Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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