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Nura: Question time again: Why did Allah create people He would end up hating? And other minor questions.

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in response to reader comment: Take a history course:Plato

Submitted by Plato (India), Oct 21, 2008 at 06:48

Nura, you wrote:

>>And…your point? I guess that a loving God should love everybody? Let's put this into tangible terms, since you only believe in what you see.<<

The point, Nura, is that God, Allah, claims to have created everything in creation including humans. Why did He create people whom He would end up hating because they would refuse to believe in Him.? Now let us examine what you put into "tangible terms".

>>Imagine that you have a child who you took care of all his life. You gave him everything he needed, but when asked who gave it to him he would say his father and he would show a picture of someone else.

He would praise him and love him and devote his life to pleasing him when he did not exist. He would remember the time he narrowly escaped death. He would cry…etc etc……..You, who have saved his life and helped him when he didn't realize it, yet he devotes his life and thanks a being that does not exist calling him father.<<

Now imagine a very "tabgible" situation. Go to a third world country and visit a children's cancer ward. You see a 10-year-old girl in the last throes of a painful death. Her parents are so poor they cannot afford to pay for the expensive medicines that will at least relieve her of some pain.

You now explain to the girl writhing in pain that she has a loving father who created her out of His love for girls like her. You tell her that this loving Father is so powerful that He knows even before she was born that she would die a slow painful death brought on by a disease He created out of His unfathomable love for humans. You further tell her that this loving father can, if He wished, cure her and relieve her of her misery. He has only to say, ‘Cancer, Cancer go away' and away it goes.

When she asks you why this loving Father chooses to inflict so much pain on her despite never having done anyone any harm you tell her that He had sent her a letter via strange being called an angel and had it delivered to you from the mouth of an illiterate Arab, who styled himself as God's prophet.

That letter told you in no uncertain words that whatever horrible things that this loving Allah chooses to inflict on her she must continue to love, respect and fear this Almighty being. Otherwise He will visit even more horrible pain and torture on her for all eternity when the soul this prophet says she has reaches Him when she dies. If she even dares to question this voice mail of Allah's the punishment gets worse. Having known the nature of this Father's love the little girl looks at you with horror and expires immediately at the prospect that such a Being could even begin to exist.

>>I think you would be furious and would call this son most unjust and ungrateful.<<

If I remained hidden while he suffered, as Allah does, and then claims through some intermediaries of doubtful provenance, that I the one taking care of him I would understand if my son turned away from me and worshipped a picture of a statue as his saviour.

>>Allah The supreme is much more than the father in the example above. He is the creator. The one who has created the air that you breathe. The heart that has not stopped beating from the first months of your conception to now. He has provided food, love, family, livelihood, and some knowledge. Who do you thank? You thank other's besides him.<<

Allah the Supreme is surely more than the father in your example. He claims to be all powerful and full of mercy. Yet He created physical and mental diseases to torture mankind, he created famines, floods, tsunamis and pitted one nation against another causing the death of millions. Should I thank Him and why?? I would rather thank a harmless idol which I know is incapable of doing me any harm unlike the so-merciful Allah who I know and have observed does enormous harm to the world which He claims to have created.

>>All your life you have thanked other's beside him despite his letters to you. <<

He never sent me any letters. An illiterate Arabian claimed Allah had messaged him through a winged being no one except he could see. You expect men to believe this man?

>>His invitation to acknowledge your true creator.<<

I am not aware of any such invitation to me. If He had talked to me directly, well, that would be a different story.

>> You have been instead ungrateful while your heart beats of his permission. <<

Why should I be grateful for a heart that I know can give way any moment, without as much as a by your leave.

>>You have slandered him and his servants.<<

This all-powerful Being needs servants to do his bidding! Allah needs servants in heaven to do tasks He is incapable of despite claiming to be all-powerful. And you think He is all-powerful, how naïve can one be!

As to slandering His servant(s) can pointing out that this servant of His was prone to raiding inoffensive caravans, taking booty from neighbouring tribes, enslaving their women and children, and having his critics assassinated be considered slader?

>> You mock and blaspheme his name. You became an open enemy while you eat the food that he provides for you, while your shadow prostrates before him. <<

I mock the Phantom and Tarzan of the African jungles too. I am not their enemy, nor am I an enemy of Allah. But unlike the fans of the Phantom and Tarzan, Allah's fans get apoplexy when He is mocked.

I have no proof that He provides me or for any body else. In fact I know He does no such thing as millions go to sleep hungry and cold despite Allah's claim that He is the most Benevolent and most Merciful.

I have yet to see my shadow prostrating unless I myself do so. Not even Allah can make it prostrate if I do not. And if it did it would be some kind of pyrrhic victory for Allah because it would mean He is incapable of making me do the prostration and has to make do with my shadow (recall Satan did not prostrate before Adam despite Allah's orders?)

>>Allah the supreme will allow your insolence for a time. But you will be called to account and will then wish that you could prostrate before your lord. This message is not new? <<

This message is not new and is what all purveyors of religion, especially monotheistic ones, when unable to account for the fact that the ‘insolence' of unbelievers does not prevent them from enjoying the best of what life has to offer. So the believers take great vicarious pleasure in assuming that we will have our comeuppance when we stand before this Allah of theirs.

>>How would Allah be just if he rewarded people who did not believe in him while there are others who believe?<<

What makes you think Allah is just. Recall the ‘tangible' story of the girl suffering from cancer I narrated above.

>>Other's who sacrifice day and night seeking his glory and love, while you seek the love of one who does not exist.<<

Allah needs to be glorified?? Is He some kind of tin-pot dictator who needs to have his ego massaged by constant glorification by his subjects?? LOL what kind of an Almighty god is this you believe in, Nura?

>> Are these two people the same? This is the reason why God has always ,since the beginning, warn man of the punishments of associating Gods with him.<<

No they are not the same. One lives in a make-believe world full of angels, jinns, a heaven and a hell, miracles and such other fabulous stuff. And the other lives in the real world where there is injustice, pestilence, suffering and human greed tempered by human ingenuity, love, compassion and the knowledge that life is an adventure full of possibilities, good and bad.

>>If Allah did not warn us of the punishment for not believing in him, would it be just to punish those people? Allah warns as way of Justice. Humanity has had fair warning in what is to come for disbelief.<<

Nura, did Allah warn you? He did not warn me. You just believe what an Arab claimed 1400 years ago without any proof except his own claims. Wake up.

>> If you don't like his punishment, take it up with him.<<

If He had the nerve to come before me I would tell Him that torturing people for eternity for merely not believing in Him does not become someone who claims to be the most merciful and benevolent.

>>Allah says that the Quran has come as a barer of glad tiding, and a Warner.

009.038
YUSUFALI: ………… Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter

Allah gave the order for Muslim to fight their enemies.<<

Who were these enemies that Allah wanted Muslims to fight? The peaceful Qureish caravans passing many hours march away? Or the hapless Jewish tribes of Arabia who were either driven out and their wealth appropriated or who were massacred without mercy.

>>He said this because many did not want to fight.<<

Who would want to fight for Allah who claims to be all-powerful and on the side of Muslims yet Muslims also lost life and limb in battles? This also means that Allah was encouraging peace-loving Arabs to fight and kill.

>>They feared death. But Allah is telling them that seeking the hereafter is more important. It was necessary for them to fight in order to survive. Only the ignorant would dispute that.<<

Nura, Islamic logic is again exposed by what you have said. To the poor Muslim who fears death Allah is giving encouragement to die and gain the hereafter which is more important than clinging to life. Next you tell us that it is necessary for them to fight in order to survive. What happened to death being more important than survival? What level of intelligence does it require to see how ridiculous this statement is?

>>YUSUFALI: ……. Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers:….

This order from Allah means that you cannot be friends with unbelievers. ……………………Nura, you love a religion that asks you to be unfriendly with anyone who is not a Muslim. Prove to me I am wrong.

I would gladly prove that you are wrong. Firstly, you have interpreted this verse partly. This verse came in a time when everyone Jews, Christians, and Pagans, were adverse to Islam. …......You miss the important part of the ayah, it says RATHER than the believer.<<

How about this verse? 005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

This verse does not have ‘rather'.

This verse tells you that you will invite Allah's wrath if you befriend an infidel:

5:80 Thou seest many of them turning in friendship to the unbelievers. Evil indeed are (the works) which their souls have sent forward before them (with the result), that Allah's wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide.

>>Your primary friendships or people who you trust your life with should be Muslims first for the following reasons:

…. I have had non- Muslim friends before and they never understood why I didn't date and would encourage me. If I was a weak person I could have been influenced. ….I have had to cut Muslim friends because I have felt that they were a bad influence……. If you don't want to compromise your religion, you should hang around people who believe what you believe. Either they will change you, or you will change them.<<

You have now told us that Muslims are really very unfriendly people. Their faith is so weak that they are afraid to associate with infidels in case they are tempted to leave their religion. I pity the kind of faith you have.

>>Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) had many interrelationships among his tribe. Did he leave his uncle who a pagan until he died? He loved his uncle, he actually wanted to pray for him. It is because of him that his uncle will have the lowest punishment in the fire.<<

We know that your prophet had great partiality towards his blood relations. He loved his mother too and his faith prevented him from praying for her.

What about his other uncle, Abu Lahab? He had Allah send him a surat describing the punishment in store for him. It is interesting to know that Allah can turn down the heat or turn it up in hell depending on who He/Mohammed is partial to.

>>Does not Islam teach to keep close relations with family? No, I'm sorry. There is no evidence that Muslims were instructed to shun their family because of their beliefs.<<

Now read this evidence: 009.023
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.

Nura, now bring on your context weapon to demolish this surat and consign it to the waste basket.

>>……... How can that be if the West dictates the faith of people. They cannot even dictate the faith of people in their own territories. Where in the world do they dictate who believes what? Show us.

Well let's look at France who has outlawed the Hijab. Let's look and Germany who is seeking to do the same thing. Let's look at how people are attempting tell Muslims that our religion needs a reformation.<<

Well Nura, where have you been? Islam has already been reformed in many areas. Slavery for instance. The world forced Muslims countries to ban it though your Koran has no problem with it. Very big reform indeed. Several Muslim countries give equal rights to women in many areas including being made equal in witnessing. The Koran says women are worth half a man as a witness.

Perhaps in your lifetime you will see other reforms too and you will be able to experience more freedoms.

>>Where have you been, sleep for the last decade? Let's talk about how a Muslim student in the U.S had to fight to be able to wear her scarf at school.<<

You have informed us Muslims can fight for their rights in the US. Can infidels like me even protest some of the inhuman Islamic laws in Muslim countries? The blood money I get is half that of a Muslim if you apply the Islamic law.

>> A Muslim professional football player was criticized for not standing up for the pledge of allegiance which is Haram for Muslims to pledge to ANY flag.<<

You have told us nothing new. We knew all along Muslims have no loyalty to their country of birth or residence. They are fixated on things Islamic, including countries that are enemies to their own motherland.

>>I had to go through hell to have a passport picture with my scarf on.<<

Big deal. Will I be allowed to quench my thirst during Ramadan in Saudi Arabia?

>>Don't tell me people are not deciding what Muslims should believe.<<

How come there are 1.5 billion Muslims, then?

>>You hear it everyday. There is a significant group in Holland who calls for the ban of the Quran entirely. More is coming. <<

What would you do with a book that encourages people to murder, enslave and take booty? Read 9:111, and 8:69. Care to demolish them with the context weapon?

>> Yes, we have freedom of religion, but they make sure that people make you feel uncomfortable about practicing it. Too me, that is dictation.<<

Oh really? Despite the discomfort you feel you build mosques, madrassas and attend regular prayers and have pressure groups lobbying for sharia. Try to smuggle in an idol or hold prayer meetings in the privacy of your homes in Saudi Arabia and see where it gets you (if you worship idols, that is)

>> When a person comes to me and say "honey, you are in America now, you don't have to wear that anymore", that is dictation. When someone said to me that "Muslims women don't have to wear the Hijab," that is dictation. The argument that the Quran needs to be updated, that is dictation. Where are you, I'm out here.<<

When in Saudi Arabia or Iran the virtue police come and tell you ‘honey a bit of your hair is showing and driving pure hearted Muslims males nuts' and drags you off to jail, what would that be?

>>In how many Arab countries can a Hindu install his idols. In the country you live in there are plenty of Hindu temples and also mosques. So tell us again Nura which religion outlaws other religions.

For the record, the only religion that was outlawed in Muslim society was Paganism. <<

Great. So if Islam is the only religion banned in Hindu India would you have any complaints?

>>Secondly, so the hell what.<<

So the hell what?? If France outlaws the hijab, if the US insists on Muslims pledging allegiance to their motherland, so the hell what?

>>Islam came to dispel idol worship from the people, why would it then bring it back?<<

None of the Muslims who have posted here are able to explain what is wrong with idol worship. Can you Nura? What is special about monotheism. A god who speaks through an illiterate warlord about His supposed mercy and greatness is a preposterous idea that should be dispelled. The idol worshippers of the world were and are far less intolerant and so much more peaceful than followers pf an angry, jealous Allah Who cannot tolerate even an idol made of dead wood.

>>You are asking as if Allah is being unreasonable.<<

Yes, I am not just asking but proving to you from the Koran that Allah is unreasonable. Let me state the obvious first: a person who says you are barred form questioning his actions is an unreasonable person. I hope you agree to this definition. Allah does not allow you to question his actions. He tells you:

005.101
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.

005.102
YUSUFALI: Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.

010.019
YUSUFALI: Mankind was but one nation, but differed (later). Had it not been for a word that went forth before from thy Lord, their differences would have been settled between them.

This last verse (10:19) is saying that mankind was one nation and because of the word of Allah differences have arisen among them. What a merciful being is your Allah.

If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance (32:13)

Reading the above verses Allah comes across as a schizophrenic deity intent on causing harm by misguiding people and at the same time claiming to be benevolent and merciful. And you claim Allah is a reasonable being!

>>You are asking as if Islam is the only religion that does not warn pagans that they are going straight to Hell. It's actually a very old message.<<

I ask no such thing. The message about pagans going straight to hell may be ancient but what truth is there in it? That is the belief of monotheistic religions. But if there were a hell it will be populated by people who condemn people who worship differently from them. Worship of God in all or any of His manifestations like the pagans do cannot be a sin in any REASONABLE god's eyes.

Nura, while replying to you I saw ariana's post and nothing more needs to be said about caste system. Read the two posts and be enlightened about India and its Hindus. (Noora: if some needs history lessons here it is you and Second part of my Rebuttal to Nura ...!)

>>Why do you bring in Judaism? They suffered violence under both the Christians and Muslims. Six million Jews are witness to that in modern times. And the Banu Quraiza are witness for Muslim ethnic cleansing of Jews.

Violence against African blacks in the form of the slave trade continued until the twentieth century and continues to this day in the violence against the negroes of Darfur.

I guess you should read the Old Testament. Are you really this ignorant? <<

I have read the OT and Islam is mostly a rehash of it with some garnish added. As to my ignorance the readers and you will have to come to their/your own conclusions based or our debate.

>>Jews have wagged wars upon wars on their enemies in history and present. They were ordered by the God of Yisrael to exterminate the Canaanites, man, woman, children, and livestock for their paganism. There were many other battles that were waged against pagans solely for their beliefs. They were slaughtered. Come on, you bought the innocent sheep story? Still care about their suffering when they slaughtered your pagan brother's lol. The armies of Yisrael were known!<<

Does not your Koran say the torat was Allah's gift to the Jews. Is not the god of Israel Allah? So what are you complaining about?

>>Banu Quraiza was ethnic cleansing? It was one incident against one tribe who happened to be Jews and you call that ethnic cleansing? What an idiotic statement.<<

How many incidents against how many tribes make for ethnic cleansing? Can you point us to any descendant of this tribe?

By your logic the Serbs should not be accused of trying to clean up Bosnia ethnically. There are more than a billion Muslims still surviving so what are a few thousands dead.

Do have anything to say about the manner in which more six hundred Jews lost their lives?

>>If Muslims wanted to exterminate the Jews in their lands, they could have a LONG, LONG time ago. Jews still live in Arabs lands today so what are you talking about? <<

So where are the Jews of the Arabian peninsula? The prophet wanted them cleaned of these ‘najis', deaf, dumb and blind people from his beloved Arabia and his followers obliged.

>>I think that Christians were the notorious perpetrators of the slave trade. You really need to take a world history course.<<

So they were. Does that make Muslim slave-holding smell of roses? Show me one verse in the Koran that denounces slavery. It denounces alcohol, usury and fornication. Are these greater crimes that enslaving men, women and children??

>>The violence in Darfur is a tribal and political conflict of is likeness has not been an occurrence in Islam.<<

Really? What about the Sunnis and Shias slaughtering each other in Pakistan, and Iraq. What about what is happening to the Kurds. What about what Saddam did to the marsh Arabs.

>>P.S. Black people are no-longer called NEGROES, it's kind of OFFENSIVE.<<

Here is the meaning of Negros: A person with dark skin who comes from Africa (or whose ancestors came from Africa) [courtesy Wordweb]. What do you find offensive in it? Only to those who think it has a pejorative meaning is it offensive. I have known black people who proudly call themselves negros.

>>Who does this spilling of Muslim civilian blood? Check out what is happening in Darfur. More Muslims have been killed in just a few years by other Muslims in Sudan than perhaps all the Palestinians killed by Israel during this past sixty years.

Wow, so you admit that the conflict in not religious? Darfur is a crises, however, it does not support your argument. There is a civil war going on in Sudan as there are in many areas in Africa and the world. What is your point?<<

You had asked who does the spilling of Muslim blood, implying that the West and Christians were doing it. I am showing you that Muslims are as guilty of shedding Muslim blood as the others. You turn that around and claim that I am admitting that Darfur conflict is not religious. My point, Nura, is that Muslims are as guilty of killing Muslims in large numbers as are Christians. (Iran-Iraq war, the Iraqi civil war between Sunnis and Shias, the Muslims killing each other in Pakistan and Afghanistan and so on.

>>So, you don't think that U.S. forces, British forces, Nato, have not killed a large number of civilians? I'm wasting my time on you.<<

Where did I say I did not think that?? I have plenty of time to waste on you if you respond to this.

Regards

Plato

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Mark my comment as a response to Nura: Question time again: Why did Allah create people He would end up hating? And other minor questions. by Plato

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