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Nura: Are we getting anywhere despite time well spent: Part II

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in response to reader comment: Time well spent? Re:Plato I

Submitted by Plato (India), Oct 28, 2008 at 06:43

Nura, You wrote:

>>Aisha, the Prophet's wife (Pbuh), quotes him as saying: "For any adversity a Muslim suffers, Allah erases some of his sins, even though it may be no more than a thorn pricking him". (Related by Al-Bukhari).<<

"You Muslims have it made with Allah. Keep walking over thorny bushes and all your sins will disappear from Allah's book of accounts.

>>Abu Saeed asked: "Messenger of Allah, which people have the greatest affliction?" He replied: "The Prophets (Pbuh), and then the most pious and righteous. ……."

Narrated 'Ata bin Abi Rabah:….., 'Shall I show you a woman of the people of Paradise?' I said, 'Yes.' He said, 'This black woman came to the Prophet and said, 'I get attacks of epilepsy and my body becomes uncovered; please invoke Allaah for me.' The Prophet said (to her), 'If you wish, be patient and you will have (enter) Paradise; ……[al-Bukhari]

Adversity is necessary in this life for many reasons. One, being that it is through adversity that the righteous become the best of creation, Allah's Masterpiece of which Satan disagreed.<<

Why is Allah so fond of suffering humans? Is He some kind of sadist? Does Allah hate to see happy people? Your Allah is really a very weird Being.

>>>"He said, "Seest Thou? This is the one whom Thou hast honoured above me! If Thou wilt but respite me to the Day of Judgement, I will surely bring his descendants under my sway…. As for My servants, no authority shalt thou have over them: Enough is thy Lord for a Disposer of affairs." (17: 62–65)<<

This conversation between the almighty Allah and his servant Satan must surely rank among the most comical of dialogues in Heaven. Allah lets loose Satan to do mischief among unbelieving men and women but does not give authority to him to do the same with his servants (believers). Why did Allah create Satan? To make unbelievers even worse unbelievers so that Allah can turn up the heat in Hell to the max? LOL

>>This is a very important story. Shaytan has vowed to lead man astray in his attempt to prove that he is better than man.<<

Yes very important story as it tells us about Allah's confused mind. Allah is the disposer of affairs so how can Shaytan lead man astray without His leave? When Allah gives leave it should mean He has no objection to Satan's works.

>>Allah tells him, that although he will assault his creation, he will never be able to take his servants! This teaches us that the superiority of the creation of man relies on his belief and obedience to god regardless of adversity.<<

Verses 17:62-65 tell you that believers cannot be affected by Satan and unbelievers will remain unbelievers as the Lord is the disposer of affairs. What then is Allah's complaint against unbelievers and Satan?

>> It is not easy to believe when everything is perfect? The bravest soldiers are those who remain steadfast during a furious battle, not the ones who never enter the battle field!<<

The Muslim world when compared to the unbelieving world is full of poverty, disease and conflict. It seems these afflictions make for strong faith. People who live better lives have less or no faith in Allah. Conclusion: Islam thrives on illiteracy, poverty, disease and hunger. Open your eyes and you will see it is true.

>>There are a few problems with your example; one it is assumed that poverty is the result of an un-giving God. This is a gross misrepresentation of the truth. Would you deny that this world contains enough wealth, food, and provisions so that everyone in it would be well taken care? Allah has provided this.<<

Allah has a curious way of providing wealth. He gives more of it to people who do not believe in Him than to Muslims and to redress the imbalance He authorised them to conquer and acquire booty, for we read in the Koran:

008.069
YUSUFALI: But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good: but fear Allah: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

008.041
YUSUFALI: And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to Allah,- and to the Messenger, and to near relatives, orphans, the needy, and the wayfarer,- ……For Allah hath power over all things

If being an orphan or being needy is a test of faith as you claim why then does Allah ask Muslims to distribute booty taken from those unfortunates you conquer to the orphans and needy. Should Muslims not do them a favour by leaving them in their poverty so that they can increase their faith and swell the credits added to their account?

>>Why then does poverty and hunger exists.<<

A question all believers in god should ask and answer. If you answer it honestly god will cease to exist in your mind.

>> Who created it?<<

Does a believer need to ask this question? You KNOW everything is by the leave of Allah for as 8:41 says ‘Allah has power over all things.' If poverty is evil then it is a creation of Allah for He says in 113:1-2 SHAKIR: Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of the dawn, From the evil of what He has created,

>> It is man who hoards the provisions of Allah that creates these social problems. This is why in Islam it is a great sin to hoard wealth, and it is an obligation to give charity.<<

Hoarding of wealth is rampant in Muslim countries. You have a few filthily rich Muslims and millions who go hungry day and night and suffer the most severe privations (to increase their faith, no doubt?). In infidel countries income is much more evenly distributed, hoarding is not a disease in them.

Giving charity is an act of condescension. People have a right to a decent life. It is the duty of all of us to ensure that and not make the defeatist claim, as you do Nura, that privations are Allah's way of teaching us to increase our faith in this unseen phantom of a deity.

>>We have free will, and the choice to accept Allah's Guidance.<<

You call yourself a Muslim. You seem not to have read the Koran and what it tells you about Allah's guidance:

10:99 SHAKIR: And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?

32:13 SHAKIR: And if We had pleased We would certainly have given to every soul its guidance, but the word (which had gone forth) from Me was just: I will certainly fill hell with the jinn and men together.

Nura, Allah is telling you He it is not His pleasure to guide everyone. What use is free will against Allah's will??

>>It is the responsibility of man, through God's guidance to act justly.<<

Read this and understand what Allah is telling His faithful:

6:125 SHAKIR: Therefore (for) whomsoever Allah intends that He would guide him aright, He expands his breast for Islam, and (for) whomsoever He intends that He should cause him to err, He makes his breast strait and narrow as though he were ascending upwards; thus does Allah lay uncleanness on those who do not believe.

Nura, Allah tells you in this verse that it is not man's responsibility to act justly as ‘whomsoever Allah intends that He would guide him aright' and ‘whomsoever He intends that He should cause him to err . Do you want to dispute the Koran (or have I taken the verse out of context as usual?)

>>Unfortunately, man is greedy. This is why there are poor and oppressed people. It is the result of the evil that man's hand creates. <<

Man, Allah has told us several times is not responsible for his actions and He has also informed us that He is the creator of evil: 113:1-2 SHAKIR: Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of the dawn, From the evil of what He has created,

>>I guess you would absolve humanity of all wrong doing?<<

I surely would if Allah exists as He claims to create evil in 113:1-2.

>>Furthermore, your question only reiterates the understanding of Allah's Final judgment of man.

Draws near for mankind their reckoning, while they turn away in heedlessness." ( Surat Al-'Anbia', Verse 1)<<

Gobbledygook. Isn't it Allah who refuses to guide us and adds insult to injury by throwing evil in our path (113:1-2)?

>>The Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) said, "The first thing adjudicated between people on the Day of Judgment will be murder." (Agreed upon)<<

What about people who instigate others to murder like the Prophet did when he wanted his critics assassinated like Asma bint Marwar, or Kaf bin Ashraf? When will they be adjudicated?

>>The Prophet ……said, "'whoever kills a sparrow without fulfilling its due rights will be questioned by Allah regarding such killing.' ……., ‘Oh Messenger of Allah, what are its due rights?' The Prophet said, ‘That you slaughter it properly and eat it, not that you cut its head off and discard it (as a whole).'" (Nasa'i, Ahmad, Darimi)<<

Were the rights of Asma Bint Marwarn and Kaf bin Ashraf fulfilled or that Kinana bin Rafi who was tortured and killed to get at the Banu nadir treasure? Will Muhammad be questioned about these killings?

Were these people slaughtered properly??

>>These sources prove that Allah did not leave anything unanswered. He has promised those who have been wronged will receive justice.<<

What is Allah's promise worth when He Himself encourages injustice. Some instances of Allah's justice are given below:

Allah encourages Muslims to take booty when they go conquering, including women and children taken as slaves(8:69).

He encourages Muslim men to take concubines from among their women slaves whether they like it or not: 33:50 SHAKIR: O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, …..; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you...

He tells Muslim men to thrash their wives if they think they will be disobedient. 4:34 SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women ……. the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; …..

>>Imam Bukhari reported that the prophet (S.A.W.) said: "If any Muslims has oppressed his brother concerning his honor or anything else, let him obtain his pardon today (in this world) ……<<

Allah does not consider unbelievers to be friends, let alone brothers, of Muslims. Muslims therefore need not ask their pardon for offending unbelievers. Nura, am I wrong in concluding thus?

>>In another hadith narrated by Imam Muslim…….. The Prophet (S.A.W.) elucidated the point said: 'a pauper from among my followers (ummah) is one who will come on the day of judgment with a good record of salah (prayers) and seiam (fasting) and zakat (Obligatory charity) but also he had abused somebody: Slandered against someone: Stole the wealth of another person, had killed someone or beaten yet another person. Then all the oppressed persons will receive a part of the aggressors' good deeds. Should they fall short of his aggression, then the aggrieved person's sins and defaults, will be transferred from them to him, and he will be thrown into the Fire (Hell)!"<<

A great hadith spoiled by limiting it to the ummah. If the oppressed person is an infidel this surely cannot apply as there is no way he/she can enter Heaven.

>>What is interesting is that Man expects justice for injustices, but what about the injustices that the law of society does not fulfill?<<

Yes man does expect justice for injustices especially if the injustice comes from someone who claims to be all-powerful and most merciful. Social laws cannot give justice for the injustices imposed by Allah on millions who are born destitute, suffer incurable and painful diseases or natural disasters that are brought upon them for little reason.

>>What about the dead bodies in mass graves that are nameless? What about the corruption of governments that has oppressed people bust are never held to account? Do people get away with evil? It seems that way, but Allah has promised that all issue/claims will be weighed in TRUE justice. Everyone will have their day in court.<<

More gobbledygook. Allah is quick to promise booty for Muslims to enjoy in this world itself. 8:69 SHAKIR: Eat then of the lawful and good (things) which you have acquired in war, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Is this all-powerful being incapable of giving justice in this world? Allah's justice is just so much pie in the sky.

>>Is this a response to people who suffer? I don't think that your response to the letter represents everyone. Allot of people as God for help in their suffering. I guess you would deny his existence in your suffering, but how will this ease it.<<

If you cannot reach the person who is the cause of your suffering (Allah in this case) even if it does not ease my pain it would give me some satisfaction to curse him. There are some weak minds, especially people with a masochistic nature, who will beg for more suffering to please this sadistic being.

>>Regardless of what you believe, you will suffer, so why not do it with humility? With the hope that Allah will give you a great reward for your patience. This is the hope of martyrs. Why do you only focus on the punishment?<<

Suffer with humility for no fault of mine? And for the pie in Allah's sky? Your joke is sickening. When you are being punished your mind is naturally focused on it and not on Allah's pie.

>>"This is a reminder. Verily, for the righteous is a beautiful place of final return – garden of eternity, whose doors will always be open to them."
[Surah Saad, 38: 49-50]

"And those who feared their Lord will be led to the Garden in crowds until behold, they arrive there. Its gates will be opened, and its keepers will say, ‘Peace be upon you! Well have you done, so enter it, abiding in it eternally.'"
[Surah Al Zumar, 39: 73]<<

Allah offering more of His pie in the sky.

>>Sahl bin Sa'd (radiAllahu anhu) ……."Paradise has eight gates, and one of them is called ar-Rayyaan, through which none will enter but those who observe fasting."
[Sahih al-Bukhari]

.........

"The gates of Paradise will be opened on Mondays and on Thursdays, and every servant of Allah who associates noting with Allah will be forgiven,……...'"
[Muslim, Malik and abu Dawud]<<

LOL. There are days of the week in paradise? I thought paradise was special it had not need for a sun and moon to keep time

>>Paradise - Never imagined by a Human-being<<

The verses and hadith you have quoted leaves nothing for human imagination.

>>The Rivers of Paradise

[Surah Muhammad, 47:15][Surah al-Qamar, 54: 54-55][Surah Muhammad, 47: 12]……..

The Fountains of Paradise

[Surah al-Hijr, 15: 45-47][Surah al-Mutaffifeen, 83: 25-28] [Surah al-Insan, 76: 18][Surah al-Ghashiyah, 88: 12][Surah al-Rahman, 55: 50][Surah al-Insan, 76: 5-6]

The Gardens and Trees of Paradise

[Naba, 78: 31-32][Rahman, 55: 52][Rahman, 55: 54-55][Rahman, 55: 68][Waqiah, 56: 27-33] [al-Insan, 76: 14] [Mursalat, 77: 41-44][Insan, 76: 14][Waqi'ah, 56: 28-33] [Nisa, 4: 57]

The Atmosphere of Paradise

[Al Insan, 76: 13][al-Ghashiyah 88: 8-11] [Fatir, 35: 34-35]

The Market of Paradise

[Maryam, 19: 59-63][Ghafir, 40: 40][al-Baqarah, 2: 25][Safat, 37: 40-43][Saad, 38: 53-54]

The Food and Drink of Paradise

[Zukhruf, 43: 72-73][Tur, 52: 22-23][Dukhan, 44: 51-55][Ya-Sin, 36: 57][Haqqah, 69: 19-24][Insan, 76: 15-22][Waqi'ah, 56: 27-34][Mursalat, 77: 41-44] [Insaan, 76: 5][Saad, 38: 51][Tur, 52: 17-19]

The Vessels and Plates of Paradise
[Waqi'ah, 56: 17-19][al-Zukhruf, 43: 71][al-Insan, 76: 15-16][Naba, 78: 31-34]

The Dwellings of the People of Paradise

[Tawbah, 9: 72] [Rahman, 55: 72]

The Thrones of the People of Paradise
[Ghashiyah, 88: 31-36][Mutaffifeen, 83: 22-24][Tur, 52: 20] [Insaan, 76: 13]Ya-Sin, 36: 56][Waqi'ah, 56: 15-16][Rahman, 55: 54][Mutaffifeen, 83: 34-36]

The Reception of the People of Paradise
[Zumar, 39: 73][Ra'd, 13: 23-24]<<

These verses give us ample evidence that the Koran is a book of bribes for belief in an unseen, unproven deity combined with threats of horrible punishments for disbelief. Nura, you have done a good job of filtering, from the jumble that is the Koran, and enumerating these inducements and threats that Allah is offering humankind.

Regards

Plato

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