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Turkish victimization comedy

Reader comment on item: Turkey: An Ally No More
in response to reader comment: Let historians decide

Submitted by Ianus (Poland), Nov 2, 2009 at 14:23

Aybike ,

Let me ask you one rhetorical question "Are you a historian"? I call it a rhetrcal question as what you ahve written is the most eloquent answer to it.

> Just talking talking,..
Where is the proof genocide? <

I understand that as a Turk you can't even imagine sucha thing as 'the Armenian genocide'. You would get jailed or killed instantly if you committed such a thought crime in Turkey. Not a single library in your country has any books worth mentioning -and freely available- on the genocide perpetrated by the Turks. So I understand your question perfectly well. I udnerstand also that you haven't frequented any foreign library to be able to make comparisons. And I guess that downloading and studying freely available sources - let say the neutral German or Austrian evidence of Turkish atrocities ( both countries were close allies and friends of Turkey b etween 1914-1918 ) - is too dangerous to do in a notorious police state like Islamo-Kemalist Turkey. Freedom of thought is unthinkable in that despotic country whose brainwashed citizens feel no need of freedom. They mistake conformism for 'freedom'.

Anyway, you may well never heard of the trials organized by the Allied of the main perpatrators of the Armenian genocide before allied military tribunals in 1919. Why bother you with details, proofs and verdicts then?

> We open freely Ottoman archives, but you do not even talk about it.<

You "open" them just as the Young Turks opened them after purging them all. The Allied found just ashes of the Youn Turkish documents in the ovens and bonfires close to the archives. It is what Turks do "freely" - l'histoire à la turque.

> Turks and Amenians had a civil war after Armenian betrayal.

You may call massacring and burning alive defenceless Armenians 'civil war'. The fact is the Turks betrayed and exterminated their subjects. The Turks had their civil war in 1920, when the Caliph issued a death fatwa and sent an irregular army (the Caliphès Army) to kill Mustafa Kemal Pasha. Kemal himself ha Armenians burnt alive in their churches.

> That is it. Other wise proove it, OK.

It's up to you to prove why no German WWI archives have any mentions of the "Armenian uprisings" you Turks love lying about while they do mention repeated Moslem uprsings in the Russian territory, atatcks on irregular Turkish jihadist on Baturmi ? Technically the Turkish Army was led by teh German Supreme Command and the Germans had detailed almost daily reports on what was going on in Eastern Anatolia. They knew about Enver's disastrous campaign "to liberate the Caucasus". Yet no German officer had ever seen anything that you call "Armenian betrayal", although they all saw the Turkish bestialities committed against the Armenains. Were the Germans also "liars" because they didn't confirm official Turkish lies?

> Enough words listened about your lies.

You have repeated the official Turkish lies to teh best of your Moslem abilities. The Turkish Ministry of Propaganda will be prouder of you if you manage to disprove the German/Austrian reports on the Turkish atrocities and mass murders of the Armenians? It's your great chance , Turk ! We are waiting for your Allah-inspired Kemalistically impeccable reply!

> We want historians research the archives of both countries, armenians and their diaspora says no.<

You Turks have no historians worth the name. They are part of the official state-sponsored propaganda machine. Conformist stooges of the ruling militarist jingoistic sect. Anone who disagrees is jailed or assassinated in Turkey. What sort of historians can you expect from Turkish fascists ? I have to repeat my comparison. Talking with a Turkish historian about the genocides perpetrated by teh Turks between 1915-1922 is like talking to a Nazi historian about the holocaust.

>Who killed 1000 innocent defensless people -mostly older, women and children, not even soldiers- in Hodjali, Azerbaijan 17 years ago ? This is the real GENOCIDE, not your fantasies...
Time to hammer huh? <

What a sudden change of tone and subject! From the perpetrators of second-worst genocides in history now the Turk turns into an innocent howling victim of Armenians. But OK. Hodjali is an interesting case too.

The town some 10 km from Stepanakert , with the only airport in Nagorno-Karabakh , on a strategic road could be easily expected to come under fire if an armed conflict erupted. yet soon on the eve of it -between 1988 to 1991 - the town tripled its size : from some 2000 inhabitants it grew up to c. 6300, due mainly to Azeri and Turkish (from the Ferghana valley) refugees. So who cared about security ?

What is more importannt, the town was attacked and its storming took place exactly 4 years after the brutal Armenian pogroms carried out by the Azeris in Sumgait. The Azeris tortured and burnt alive many Armenians in the town. Some thrity of them are known to be brutally killed, hundreds were maimed , wounded, raped . About 200 Armenian apartments, houses and shops and workshops were wantonly devastated by the Azeri mob. Thousands of Armenian refugees from this newly created Azeri 'paradise' triggered the first wave of wrath and resistance that staretd the vicious circle of war which in effect ruined those who had started the pogroms - the Azeris themselves. They lost c. 14% of their territory, got some half a million refugees, ruined their economy. As it is said they sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind. Not even the massive Turkish military aid could avert the disaster. How many Turkish volunteers, including high ranking generals (in retirement) and officers joined and led the Azeri army that failed so dismally.

We have a number of studies on what happened. The Human Rights Organization "Memorial" published the results of its investigation as has Human Right Watch. They show that what you call 'a genocide' was first of all the storm of a fortified and defended town from which the Azeris had wilfully refused to evacuate before the civilians either hoping to beat the Armenians back with Turkey's or Allah's help or cynically exposing them to danger to blame the Armenians for expected casualties among them. You could well foresee that intense shelling of the town would cause not only material damage to teh buildings and trenches.

What you leave unmentioned -or are unaware of - is that the Armenians left two exit routes for the refugees and when they saw that these routes were used by the Azeris who hid among civilians they opened fire. In the ensuing combat many people were killed, including women and children. But most death was due to frost and hunger when the survivors -mostly women and children - were erring in the surrounding mountains in full Transcaucasian winter. "Memorial" points out in its conclusion "In Agdam the ( Azeri ) State Forensic investigation of 181 bodies found in Hodjali took place - 130 males , 51 women and 13 children. It has been found out that 151 people died as a result of wounds from bullets, 20 people of bomb splitters, 10 people died hit by blunt objects." It seems to confirm the above mentioned events.

And what sense would it make to intentionally kill Azeri women and children when they were needed to exchange them for Armenians captured by the Azeris ? In this war the living were ofen more important than the dead. And in fact "Memorial" confirms , relying on both Azeri and Armenian sources, that up to 28.03.92 the Armenains handed over to the Azeris c. 700 women and children and some men captured in Hodjali. If this was "a genocide", then it belongs to the strangest "genocides" I know. Unfortunately, Turks are notorious for perpetrating only conventional types of genocides.

Submitting....

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Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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