2 readers online now  |  69 million page views

Under the spreading chestnut tree I sold you and you sold me

Reader comment on item: Turkey: An Ally No More
in response to reader comment: soviet etc

Submitted by Ianus (Poland), Nov 10, 2009 at 18:52

Hi, my friend from Kaffiristan!

> Glad to be of help - it was too obvious a point not to make.

Thanks for your help again. I'd say that disagreeing is a much better way to find out the truth than agreeing too easily. Nothing harms Truth more than conformism.

"But this mistake of detail doesn't invalidate the general point at all. If you replace "St. Petersburg" with -say- "Pskov" , then you'll get the distance or even less to the Estonian border guarded by NATO bombs. And Pskov is also an attractive target to bomb if NATO happy-makers decide one day to bring more 'democracy' to Russia "

> Interesting that you picked Pskov. You might know that parts and towns of the Pskov Oblast .e.g Petseri, and much of the land south of Lake Peipsi formerly belonged to Estonia - and now are in Russian hands due to its reneging on the Treaty of Tartu . So you can look at it from the Estonian side - you'll get a different perspective - Russia encroaching on its territory. <

It's remarkable that you repeatedly refer to the Treaty of Tartu presumably without being aware of how and why it came into being. And its story is most revealing and worth knowing , indeed.

Before the chaos concomitant the end of WWI Estonia - just like Latvia and Finland – had never existed as states in history. They were direct products of Kaiser German policy of occupation in 1917-1918. Pressed in the West the Germans had not enough forces to administer the conquered Eastern provinces themselves and so they encouraged and relied on the local assistance, including both the Baltic Germans and the Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians. They established local self-administration that took over the country as Germany was defeated in the West and forced to abandon all she had conquered in the East.

With the outbreak of the Revolution in Russia fighting spread quickly from Petersburg to adjacent Estonia where Bolsheviks could mobilize considerable forces. Not being able to deal with them the Estonians asked for British and white Zarist assistance to push back the Reds out of the province. The White Russians decisively contributed to the victory and so Estonians could also intervene against the Latvians (you may well imagine that no love or deep solidarity existed between the three Baltic 'brothers').

Now in late 1919 the Whites under general Yudenich who had saved Estonia from Bolsheviks prepared for a counterattack to capture Petrograd from the Estonian territory. The offensive made considerable progress and moved forward to the cradle of the October Revolution as suddenly the Estonians made a secret arrangement with Lenin. In exchange for diplomatic recognition and a peace treaty they sold Yudenich and his troops. They betrayed their saviours, withdrew from fighting and so exposed the left flank of Yudenich's army and at the same time they blocked the way of retreat for him. Thus the Estonians relieved and probably saved Lenin who could throw all the Red forces against Kolchak and Denikin in the East and South. What they got for their treason was the Treaty of Tartu.

Simultaneously, those Whites and refugees who somehow managed to enter Estonia were mistreated and exposed to all possible hardships and forced labour or pushed back, probably to please Estonia's new friend - Leninist Russia which was the first country to diplomatically recognize Estonia. This fact the self-righteous Russian-hating Estonian jingoists prefer to keep in silence though.

So much for the 'sanctity' of the 1920 Treaty of Tartu.

> Indeed ,completely subsuming it during the Soviet period. Similarly with the Karelian region - formerly parts of Finland. It is interesting to note all the Finnish town names in Karelia and on the Russian Baltic coast - Vyborg etc<

Finland is another curious case. Before the German intervention in 1917-1918 there had never existed such a state as Finland. It was an autonomous Grand Duchy within the Russian Empire. Historically Finland had been longer under Russian rule (1809-1917) than it's been an independent state (1917-2009). What was before is part of Swedish history. Finns were peasants and the political class was all Swedish . The large Swedish minority in Finland today is a remnant of the remote glorious history. The city name you quote is purely Swedish "Vyborg" (=Viewcastle). In the course of the Great Northern War (1700-1721) the Russian conquered Swedish territories after all, not Finnish.

".....Estonia is part of NATO and has NATO war planes on its territory."

>Also part of the EU - much to the relief of most non-Russian Estonians.

Who in "democracies" cares about what every third non-citizen feels?Russians have been openly discriminated in Estonia and the EU didn't mind prefering to express concern for the rights of the Chechen bandits storming maternity wards and primary schools.

I'd be cautious about your implied enthusiasm as to belonging to Eurabia. The EU is a bureaucratic monster which is slowly spreading its tentacles destroying nation states, national identities and implementing its nasty agendas. No good news for anyone except bureaucrats and lobbyists and Moslem immigrants.

".....You may have noticed that since 1991 NATO have made a great leap eastwards disrespecting all agreements and promises given to Gorbachov (who remembers Gorbchov nowadays or yesteryear's promises ?) that it would never do it."

> See 'Treaty of Tartu'.

Yes, this Treaty of Tartu ...I have seen it. See above!

Anyway, Gorbachov deserves more than quoting the fraudulent treaty signed by Estonian opportunists to dump the incovenient Whites on the march to overthrow Lenin. Gorbachov is the only politician I have ever respected and even loved. Imagine that he was both a communist and a Russian. I am grateful to him for the only moments of freedom I have enjoyed during my life.The old monster was dying while the new monster of today's oligarchy and its lies was not born yet.

"....Thus the US/NATO forces under different pretexts have pursued a systematic and perfidious policy of encircling Russia,"

> Because the EU does not have a united military force - the next best thing is NATO.

Eurabia seems to fit well into America's calculus. An empire without an army will necessarily depend on the empire with an army stationed on its territory.

> . The Baltic states had no real choice - either be part of the EU - or flounder along as independent tiny countries with tiny economies.

Isn't it hubris that makes you tell us we had no other choice? Finland did have a choice and still prefers neutrality, although now NATO fascists want to absorb it too, but we East Europeans didn't deserve a try of being without self-proclaimed protectors ?

Frankly, after getting rid of the Soviet soldiers on our military bases, we don't need to fill them with black US soldiers and foreign flags. Our oligarchs sold our freedom and US oligarchs bought it. No choice or even a fair discussion was allowed. The new monster has come of age.

> So , naturally because they share a border with Russia - Rusia appears to become encircled.

"appears"...? Imagine for a moment the US breaks up into 15 sovereign states and Russian troops are stationed in Texas and Alaska while New England is guarded by Russian planes and the Oregon military armed to the teeth with Russian weapons attacks California to get a few square miles of disputed land ... And then under these conditions imagine someone saying "America appears to become encircled..."

A dirty game is being played nowadays to impose under different pretexts a NATO protectorate upon Russia to exploit its resources. Yet, after Gorbachov the Russians didn't deserve to be treated the way they were by the West. But who remembers him and his ideas ? Who would like to come back to his era?

> I don't want to fly off on too much of a tangent - but it's not as though Russia - apart from the Serbs , has too many allies. Even the Ukrainains can't really be counted as natural Russian allies these day.<

Depending what part of Ukraine you are talking about. Russia has many supporters in Eastern Ukraine while Ukrainian jingoism is worst in the West of the country, i.e. in former Polish Ukraine.

As to allies, the staunchest allies of the US seem to be those who haven't enjoyed yet the less advertised strings attached to US alliances. We Poles are said to be US best ally. I don't know who spreads the news. We have learnt now it's a very costly alliance, sort of a luxury few –like the Saudis perhaps - can afford. E.g. they sell us old weaponry and planes which often fail. The funny thing is that the parts that do fail are made only in the US and cost almost as much as the plane itself...Or if a US soldier happens to beat up a Polish taxi driver, then the police instead of arresting the rogue retreats and the US ambassador- now the most powerful person in Poland – is contacked and consulted and arranges for the disappearance of the rogue...

You quote Russia like being without allies. I myself don't know if having as allies the Saudis, the Turks or the Pakis isn't much more dangerous than being without them?

"........humiliating and defeating militarily her allies (as was the case during the NATO-led jihad on the Balkans),"

> I agree Nato was not acting even-handedly in that conflict - was not an 'honest broker'.

Call it as you wish, my friend. The fact is that NATO (i.e. America&Eurabia) wilfully established two jihadist states in the heart of Europe. They have faithfully continued Hitler's and the Ottomans' Balkan policy of discriminating the Christians in favour of the Moslem populations. This is enough to justify disbanding NATO and putting all those responsible for this neo-fascist policy before a firing squad.

> And since then far too little has been done to bring thousands of Albanian-backed Bosnian and Kosovo muslim war criminals to justice. <

Don't be naive! They can't be brought to justice at all as they know too much and would reveal a number of inconvenient secrets which the semi-gods and ex-semi-gods in Washington and Brussels are eager to keep as far from the public eye as possible. "Manus manum lavat" –"One hand washes the other". >

> The blame can be directed basically to narcisism of one man:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation-world/sns-ap-eu-kosovo-bill-clinton,0,1343412.story

No! I disagree. It's not narcissism of one man. It's a result of a long -term consistent policy of befriending and promoting Islam and jihad by America since Roosevelt's memorable meeting with ibn Saud in 1945 ! America supported Islamic Pakistan against India; Islamic Turkey against Greece in 1974 and directly engineered the invasion and occupation of Cyprus; supported the worst jihadists in Afghanistan; had double-dealings with mullahs in Iran (Iran-contra scandal); became the best friend and accomplice of the medieval Saudi regime. Even its support to Israel is not without stains and abberrations.

In this broader context sending troops to enlarge dar al-Islam in the Balkans was a perfectly logical step and had nothing to do with Clinton's stupidity or vanity. If it had had, then why nobody has repudiated and canceled his decisions? Why the Albanians have not been officially accused of committing a genocide against the Serbs as they have done it and keep doing it ?

But no! Instead after 9/11 what I could hear was "Why did they do that to us? We were so kind to them. We created two Moslem states for them after all, didn't we? "

Frankly, I have not trusted America and its phoney war on terror was just a joke for me. I wouldn't be surprised if this pseudo-war ends with creation by the US of some new Moslem states here and there ... e.g. in Western Thrace to regain Turkey's 'love' or on the West Bank ...

"...... As to US strategy in Estonia, the latter has been taken under the NATO umbrella and so on her territory some NATO fighter and other aircraft are permanently stationed carrying out the so called NATO Baltic Air Policing mission....To quote one piece of NATO self-glorifying propaganda : "The presence of NATO fighter planes in the skies above the Baltic States is a very clear and visible demonstration of Alliance solidarity, resolve and determination. In October last year, this commitment was further enhanced by the introduction of a one-day live flying training event involving the inplace Quick Reaction Alert (QRA) aircraft and external contributions from neighbouring NATO nations. This event was extremely successful and widely appreciated by the indigenous populations."

> But note this is at the invitation of the democratically elected leaders of Estonia.

What sort of "democracy" is it that overnight declares some 30% of its population non-citizens, discriminates them, expels them with heavy-handed or subtle administrative tricks (e.g. a Russian after 1991 could travel abroad freely but could no longer return to his home. No visas had been given to him), makes their life impossible, gives them no right to work and if work is available, then pay is always lower than with the full citizens of pure Estonian descent. Sorry, but my idea of democracy has few common points with this fascist parody.

>In fact only last week the Estonian foreign minister Urmas Paets renewed calls that more specific plans be drawn up to defend the Baltic region form attack.<

You speak much here of the Estonian perspective, my friend. Let me recall in this bellicose context some of the exploits of the Estonian SS in WWII. Now with the joy to humiliate the former 'occupiers' and play the favourite Western card of the holy underdog, the Estonians have had the cheek to erect monumets to glorify their SS men and desecrate monuments to the Soviets that had died fighting these Estonian fascists.

Once upon a time the Estonians asked Hitler to defend them. Now they are asking the continuators of Hitler's Balkan policy to do the same. Strange analogies.

> Of course they are talking about an attack from Russia - the events in Georgia make that a serious possibility for them.

http://www.estemb.org/news/aid-2174

http://www.rferl.org/content/NATO_Commander_Seeks_Defense_Plans_For_Baltic_States/1294790.html

I beg your pardon? The events in South Osetia clearly show that it is NATO that by arming and training and giving blanket political support to pseudo-democrats and militarists like Saakashvili created this war. It is Georgia that attacked South Osetia and it is US/NATO arsenals that had been captured in Tshkivali by the Russians. So instead of speaking of the attack of Russia let's call a spade a spade and speak of the NATO plans to attack Russia. All this 'danse macabre' of NATO pushing frantically eastwards would make no sense if this ultimate scenario weren't elaborated in detail in NATO conference rooms.

" As to myself, after the NATO jihadist war against Serbia, I have lost any respect and illusions about this anti-European, mendacious and criminal organization. "
Serbs have been the guard dogs of Europe for more than 500 years - and Europe owes them a debt of gratitude.

Gratitude in a world ruled by arrant cynics and traitors is the most improbable commodity. The NATO jihad was conducted - as I presume – in order to replace the old guard dogs with Moslem robbers and bandits. NATO has hired a new team in view of a larger task ahead. It doesn't want Europe to be guarded any longer. It wants it to become aggressive.

"..... I wish it had been dissolved together with the collapse of the USSR ! "

>At least you don't see the collapse of the USSR as Putin does - i.e. the greatest tragedy of the 20thCentury.<

To make a long story short, with the USSR it was a bad world but without the USSR it's a much worse world. During a short civil war in Tajikistan more Tajiks were killed than during the whole WWII. But you'd feel offended if I called it a tragedy, wouldn't you ?

Submitting....

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

Comment on this item

Mark my comment as a response to Under the spreading chestnut tree I sold you and you sold me by Ianus

Email me if someone replies to my comment

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

See recent outstanding comments.

Follow Daniel Pipes

Facebook   Twitter   RSS   Join Mailing List
eXTReMe Tracker

All materials by Daniel Pipes on this site: © 1968-2021 Daniel Pipes. daniel.pipes@gmail.com and @DanielPipes

Support Daniel Pipes' work with a tax-deductible donation to the Middle East Forum.Daniel J. Pipes

(The MEF is a publicly supported, nonprofit organization under section 501(c)3 of the Internal Revenue Code.

Contributions are tax deductible to the full extent allowed by law. Tax-ID 23-774-9796, approved Apr. 27, 1998.

For more information, view our IRS letter of determination.)