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"The greatest pogrom of the middle class in world history"

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Submitted by Ianus (Poland), Jul 1, 2012 at 10:40

the Grand Infidel of Kaffiristan wrote:

>GIK: So the fact that Stalin blamed the Germans for his massacre of 20,000 Polish officers is inconsequential? .....<<

Ianus:" Indeed, he lived on it for a couple of weeks.The West has been living on it for a couple of decades now, and seems to be living on it for a couple of centuries yet."

My question was not about Nazis opinion or their use of propaganda - but what do Poles in general and you in particular think about a) the actual summary executions of the Polish officers by fellow Slavs and b) the following deception by Stalin in the service of his propaganda and aims.<

One way of circumventing inconvenient facts and insights is not to raise questions that might suggest what one wants to hide. The West just like the Moslem East has developed an amazing mastery in this respect . My guess is that the decline of the Western education system since the 70-ies has had much to do with solving this task, namely to make young people stop asking independent inconvenient questions and instead choose from pre-suggested questions.

As to the questions you ask let me note that the Russians have admitted they had done it. So what else do you want? $ 100 bln as our government ? When these corrupt lying bastards speak of morality and historical justice , it is obvious they mean cash . They anticipate how they will embezzle the money. The problem is how to find a way to get it.Hypocrites' morality, empty rituals and crocodiles' tears are an obvious option for them.

As to what you want to learn from me , I can tell you that my father served as a soldier on the Polish-Soviet frontier in 1929-1930 near Baranovichi – a major railway knot- and so he knew officers from his units who were later killed. And what did he think ? The same I do. War is war and soldiers are there to die. Compared to the ordeal the old Russian officer corps had undergone we were lucky enough. The Katyn affair is abused by the media to deflect out attention from other problems which are created by the dysfunctional and criminalized system imposed by them in 1989. So here is one the reality : not boasted about on Australian TV "One-in-three live in absolute poverty in Poland. One-in-five can't afford to adequately heat their homes ... two thirds of Poles cannot afford an annual holiday away from home and 21 percent are not able to have a meal with meat or fish every second day. As many as 17 percent of Poles cannot afford to own and run a car." More than 25% of school children in Poland grow up in poverty. ... But wait ! Why bother? We can show a film about Poland's prosperity in Australia or America to fool the Western audiences and or make use of Katyn to fool the local audience. Both audiences are conditioned not to ask inconvenient questions. It must work ! I have to say it does without being more specific.

As to Stalin's deception can you remind me of what stand at that time the Allied took on Katyn and what happened to the Polish Prime Minister in exile general W. Sikorski ? Somehow his plane crashed when it was most needed to do , didn't it?

> "You e.g. repeated anti-communist slogans I had read in Nazi literature without any pangs of conscience."

GIK : "You mean me personally - I have repeated anti-Communist slogans found in Nazi literature? Amazing, as I've never,ever read any Nazi anti-Communist propaganda in my entire life. I will admit to having more than a teaspoon of German blood in my veins - so perhaps it's a genetic thing then - the ability to spot a crock and say so? What was it I was alleged to have repeated that is so offensive to communists?<

"No, I didn't mean you personally , of course , nor did I suspect you of having read Nazi literature. It would be too heretical and dangerous for a Westerner to do it. "

??? We are free to research and 'read whatever we like - so you hold other incorrect assumptions.<

I doubt your statement is correct. It's too good to be true. Medieval hate speech laws and freedom of research and speech can hardly co-exist. Just disagree in public with the official view on race and we will see how long you will remain free and unharrassed.

Ianus :"I would call it "different perspectives" if they added also as detailed opinions of those who had the icons painted and hung in the church as their opponents'.But this would not be politically correct."

The different perspectives are diametrically opposed - and good on those Russians who found it obscene and made it known howthey really felt.<

Do you remember that in my uncle's home the portrait of Stalin was next to a holy icon? You find it obscene, I don't. Stalin did a lot of good things you not only have never heard of but refuse to hear of , as e.g. giving a journeyman(in the pre-14th century meaning ) like my uncle or my father some land and means of existence. I am afraid you're too much of an ideologue to even admit the fact. For you the fate of my uncle, my father and some 90% of Poles that benefited from the land reform are of no consequence. I have met too many Western "humanists" of that sort not to know what I am talking about. It's impossible to discuss anything with them that runs counter to their ideology-driven worldview.

"As to me on reading your well-meant comment I thought about your earlier statement that the communist system was a failure suggesting the present one isn't ."

> I will wager that 70 years under non-communism (and non-Islam) will have a better outcome for Poles than a further 70 years under communism.<

In the 80-ies we had some 4% of people living in poverty. As you see nowadays after 20 years of forcible capitalism we have some 60%. When 50 more years pass feudalism if not slave system will be most probably fully restored with some 2-5% controlling some 95-100% of the country's (if it will exist at all which I do doubt) wealth with a servile semi-literate population. This is the trend which all your dysfunctional, anti-social and dirty capitalism is working hard to prolong ad infinitum. First it rips off and destroys the middle class ( the book I referred to calls the results of the dirty social and economic experiments in the 90-ies "the greatest pogrom of the middle class in world history" ) creates mass poverty and debt traps from which nobody will ever able to get out and then it tells us how bad communism was and implicitly that Katyn is more important that 25% of school children growing up in poverty !

> Better than that drive up to Estonia, Latvia and next door Lithuania - and ask the people there what they think.<

Are you implying the people I have asked will give the same responses as are given on Western TV ? Imagine that in Lithuania with c. 3 mln inhabitants 500 000 have emigrated. Lithuanians must be enthusiastic about it. In Latvia - every third Latvian has emigrated. Estonia reserves its privileges to "die estnische Herrenrasse", so if anything bad happens like unemployment or sky rocketing health care or education costs the first ones hit by it are the so called "non-citizens". The Estonians must feel comfortable about it , don't they?Nobody blames them for their apartheid polity.

"The total estimated number of the poor in the eighteen countries has risen twelvefold from nearly 14 million before the transition or about 4 percent of the population, to 168 million in 1993-95, or approximately 45 percent of the population." (p. 67)"

"So first, you call the system that created 4% poverty a failure while the system that creates 45% poverty seems to you to be a "success"? "

>I don't recall saying any system was a 'success'. <

Any problems about with capitalist paradise? You didn't mean to say how bad communism was as contrasted by the wonder that is capitalism? Amazing! As far as I can remember it is this lie that was being hammered into our minds in the 1980-ies."In half a year we'll become another Japan" one prominent politician promised us in 1989. His income nowadays may be close to that of the Japanese emperor , so maybe in a special sense he kept his promise.

> I can say centrally controlled command economies are a failure -

So tell me why the US economy which is not a centrally controlled economy is such a failure? With debt surpassing its budget and yet 25% defense spending this is hardly a paragon of success or free economy , is it ?

> the only one left that is doing OK is China - simply because of the 700 million potential slaves they have - which they will use to invest in capital to control production (i.e. out and out capitalists) to sell cheaply made goods too capitalist countries. That is when they are not buying up resources around the world .<

The cheap labour is not all. Something deeper is involved. The difference between a Chinese capitalist and a US one is that the former is controlled by the policy-makers and has to work for a larger good while the latter controls the policy makers and sees the state as a cow to milk working for his own interests only. The other difference is that the Chinese capitalist doesn't spend his billions on buying chateaux in the Bahamas but on reinvesting them at home and his dreams are much more modest - to have a shrine of ancestors' cult where his image will be once worshipped while conspicuous consumption is all America's rich are obsessed with.

"Interesting. Well, for some clever speculators that got rich quick in those years it must have been a big time "success" looting income that had belonged previously to 168 mln people !"

Although I know about Khodorkovsky etc I have no first hand knowledge of these clever speculators in ex-Soviet countries apart from Estonia. I know there are Russian consortiums digging for diamonds and oil in Siberia - i.e. using capital to create new ventures to produce goods. I'm sure there are many, many others who bought disused factories to start new ventures.<

They plunder natural resources and place the $ billions they get on Western bank accounts. It is how it has been working since Yeltsin's days. The West gets richer , the Russians have c.4 mln homeless children and the second biggest number of billionaires.

>And I'm sure there are disused factories right now that are still sitting there derelict - because no one is inspired to do anything with them. In Estonia - I know that (5 years ago at least) that you could have bought a disused agricultural 'commune' relatively cheaply. Anyone could have bought them - local villagers did in many cases.<

And what happened to Estonian agriculture? Did it boom ?

Ianus: "Now given the incredible fact that objective reality does exist "

Of course it exists - but only in a relative sense. Where is the world of Russian peasants in 1917 - all that fervor and hope and belief for the system that was going to transform mankind?<

It is on Cuba where education and health care are free or in China that is going to surpass the US economy by 2016 ..if no war against it is organized.

> Nearly everything from that period has vanished, turned to dust. Same with the dreams and hopes, houses, horses, equipment and the people in the Californian Gold Rush . Where is that reality -that was so 'real' to them - as real to you as the room you are sitting in and the thoughts you are having right now?<

For those who believe that inequality, mass poverty and privileges based on wealth are a natural order of things this may seem to be the case.For others like me these things have never died and will never die and they are as real as the injustice and conempt for huamnism and equality that I am observing around me in this brutal and dirty system enforced upon us with lies and false promises. And before history ends for good don't be so sure this nasty world created by suicidal neoliberalism will last for ever. More and more people realize that if the neoliberal dogma that profit is the measure of all things is true, then some 80% of mankind is useless and need euthanasia. They understand that it is neoliberalism that needs euthanasia or a more violent treatment.

"It depends. This is a crucial element if the applied theory of chaos is to work with all its destructive energy. "

Freedom is freedom - people should be free to make the wrong choices. Otherwise you end up with straight-jacketed societies like Singapore - where conformity and self-censorship is encouraged. i.e.people don't connect with themselves properly.

What I see in the West is not freedom but an illusion of freedom behind which everything is controlled, organized and run in the interests of the real masters of the West -finance capitalists and monopolistic corporations. How they operate you may learn from someone who has worked for them and calls himself an economic hitman - John Perkins - a remarkable person and a remarkable story that reveals and debunks lots of things , including many a naive narrative of yours.

"A country with a healthy, nationally-minded, patriotic and morally and demographically sound population cannot be manipulated and exploited at all by outside forces, e.g. predatory finance capitalism."

Iceland and Ireland spring to mind here - both were indeed subject to those forces. And Germany pre WW2 was 'healthy, nationally-minded, patriotic and morally and demographically sound population' but able to be manipulated massively by Internal forces.

With the wounds of 1914-1918 and the trauma of Versailles Germany reacted in a way any country with a sense of dignity would and should react to being used for mopping the floor with.

"What you need therefore is undermine and desintegrate such a population with its pride, history, mentality and identity. How ? With a hostile immigration you will depict as a great luck and wisdom while in fact it will turn out to be a source of great and irreparable evil as all hostile immigration to the West clearly shows."

Ok, I can speak from a country where there has been a huge amount of immigration into a relatively stable and homogenous population since WW2. Large numbers of Italians, Poles, Greeks, Yugoslavs and Dutch migrated here immediately after WW2. Have they undermined 'such a population with its pride, history, mentality and identity. '? i.e Anglo-Saxon-Celtic population and culture . Not at all. Both parties have benefitted - and they have blended into the population. Not so with Islam - the followers of which set themselves apart (except for the nominal-only muslims). However - where their real loyalties lie is open to question.

We both agree that European immigration is a friendly immigration and Moslem immigration is a hostile immigration, don't we?

GIK: "I'm not sure how we go from my statement i.e. 'the past is unchanging' to 'nothing has consequences' .Can you explain your reasoning?<

Ianus: "And I was not talking about ALL the evil in the world. "

Good. I was almost beginning to picture you as a poster boy of 1950's Russia, praying to Saint Dzhugashvili of Gori for his help in the restoration of pan-Slavic glory.<

Will you question the statement that he saved Slavs from extermination , something which is going on now in all Slavic lands through degradation of education, drugs, poverty,demographic downfall and hostile immigration ?

> Cuique suum. I was talking about "the destroyed and desecrated churches of Northern Cyprus and Kosovo and Islamization of the Balkans" .

Blame the arrogant and bellicose Turks for Cyprus . And Clinton and the EU media for the unfair bias in the Balkans.<

There are two possible answers to that - one is harsh and one is mild. Let me choose the mild one. "The arrogant and bellicose Turks" were ready to invade Cyprus as early as 1965.What stopped them? A letter from president Johnson. You can't see any analogy to 1974 when no letter from America was written to Turkey and correspondingly the Turkish invasion went ahead? I think I have already answered you blaming Clinton. If he were to blame and not the system he stood for, then why haven't his various successors in the White House reversed his policy? And the EU media did just what they were told - reinforce what the US media were spreading. It's always so when a major crisis is to be covered. First silence, then a White House spokesman speaks and then all the mainstream media mob repeats with variations the original message.

> "Any alternative ideas based on quantum physics or any other science as to who is to blame for that ?A butterfly fluttering its sinister wings on a Russian military base in Kaliningrad ?"

It's Ok to make light of quantum physics - you sort of have to - because if you really understood it - as Neils Bohr said : "For those who are not shocked when they first come across quantum theory cannot possibly have understood it. ". '
Yet it is the substrate on which our 'real' world exists. You even depend on quantum phenomena in the IC's inside the PC you're reading this on. And as physicist John A. Wheeler said "Useful as it is under everyday circumstances to say that the world exists "out there" independent of us, that view can no longer be upheld. " An interesting thing to do is to read up on how photons can be either waves or particles - depending on whether they are being observed or not.

another of Wheeler's quotes: "We live on an island surrounded by a sea of ignorance. As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance. "

Brilliant but - alas- quite useless to explain what has happened to Northern Cyprus and the Balkans.

"According to you there should have been no Soviet troops on the territory that was the most likely direction of a NATO attack in an expected war against the USSR? "

> So NATO was going to withdraw its forces to the top of the Baltic Sea and attack Russia via Estonia and presumably Finland? I've never heard of that one.<

And have you heard any thing anything negative about NATO? Never heard of Operation "Dropshot", "Plan Totality", "Operation Unthinkable" , Operation "Cyclone" ...? Are you really such an ingénue or just working for finance capitalism you can't question its military leg , to speak figuratively ?

> I can write tonight and ask an Estonian who lived in those times and whose area of employment would have allowed him to know about such things - whether this was an expectation of the Russian military.<

Please do and ask him how many NATO planes are now stationed in Estonia and how long it will take them to reach and bomb St. Petersburg !

Ianus : "Are you sure? No locals work in the factory?Have the Americans already shifted to slave/coolie labour yet ?"

> The Americans ran the local business for the last ten years and complied with all our industrial laws. Imported slave labour , in fact any sort of slave labour is illegal in this country. The Americans made a bad business decision which has resulted in millions of dollars worth of materials and equipment no longer being used.<

You can have slave/coolie labor with a legal fiction they are no slaves/coolies at all.I saw it here. They laid off the locals whom they had to pay 4-5 zl per hour and hired some Philipinos or Chinese who got 1-2 zl and were treated respectively.

Ianus: "Where did you get those "80 000" from ? I..... 20,000 Estonians were forcibly deported either to labor camps or Siberia" . .... (estimates as many as 80,000) chose to either retreat with the Germans or flee to Finland or Sweden.Didn't you mix up figures to look more dramatic ?"

> If they are the real figures then I must have mixed them up - but never deliberately . Still, 20,000 people sent to gulags for not thinking nice things about the Georgian dictator , or thinking about things the Georgian dictator didn't like them thinking about - is pretty dramatic. 20,000. That would equate to probably everyone in your suburb.<

And now tell me how many Estonians were involved in collaboration with the Nazis? For what the Estonians did a Russian was shot dead on the spot and not sent to the gulag.

> In any case - population growth from X to X +dX does not indicate how happy they were with their lives. Poplation growth in muslim countries/enclaves exceeds the Estonian figures by a mile - I don't see them in ecstatic bliss.<

Moslem population growth is possible only because the surplus population emigrates to colonize the West. You would see what happens if all the doors to the West were closed to the demographic Moslem invasion. Islam would implode with cannibalism and internal wars to restore the fragile demographic balance.

By its suicidal demographic policy and promotion of hostile immigration the West is digging its own grave.

Ianus:"And internal immigration was necessary as Estonia under the Soviet regime changed from agrarian to industrialized economy. "

Da, tovarich. But if you asked most Estonians (or Latvians, or Lithuanians) in the 1950's or 60's - 'given the chance - with no strings attached - would you like Estonia to be a fully free and independent republic - who can freely trade with Europe and whose citizens are free to travel to anywhere in the world " - what reply do you think they would give you? 'Jah' or 'Ei'?

"Who could build factories and power plants in Estonia ? Estonian peasants ?"

> The shale oil plant at Narva? If they had been allowed to trade and communicate freely with Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Finland - any one of those countries could easily have invested in Estonian infrastructure - as they do now.<

Speaking of "freedom" no strings attached" and investments , how many Estonains to your mind know that c. 97% of their banking system is owned by Scandinavian banks and are not their property any longer? Were they really fighting for Swedbank ,SEB, Nordea and Danske Dank to possess Estonia or not for something else ? Or don't they know Rothschild's saying " Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes its laws"?

>You're not seriously suggesting only the Russians could are you? The Russians did - because the Russians were told to by their central planners.<

And now nobody is telling from the center in Brussels what to do and what not to do?The new bosses of Estonia care more than the old ones. Is it what you mean?

"Note also that Estonia's short-lived economic "rise" was a bubble that burst in 2009 making Estonia one of the hardest hit economies of Europe."

2009? Read a little further - they are quite happy to accept austerity measures - because they were totally used to them under Soviet rule! Let's look at more recent figures from Eesti Pank - people who are intimately involved with Estonian finance. And 3.1% growth in 2010? Not what I would call a hard hit economy. Poland is doing better then?<

You say 3,1% from what threshold? When Paul Krugmann mentioned this Estonians were enraged. They are happy with austerity perhaps because in the apartheid state of Estonia the costs are borne first of all by non-Estonian non-citizens.

A nd as to the reality of Poland don't even ask me because I am not going to tell you an economic fairy tale you would like to hear from me.

"Who in Europe needs Estonia's production "

Sweden, Finland - all the Nordic countries buy Estonian products - forest goods, tech products etc<

It seems that they produce what they did under the previous regime with one essential difference you didn't tell me. Estonia was a major agrarian land with some 60% of food exports going eastwards. What has happened to Estonia's agriculture since 1991? A country that produced milk and meat in excess has been flooded by cheap products from its more powerful EU bosses who routinely subsidize their ownagriculture that is ruining Estonian farmers. You ahve to pay a high price for having the new bosses, don't you?

"while for political reasons it closes its borders on its only natural market - Russia ?"

What is so 'natural' about the Russian market? It is a completely contrived market. Were Estonians - who also have very strong historic and genealogical links with Swedes , Danes ,Germans and Finns allowed to have traded frreely with those counjtries since WW2 - those markets would be as large as any markets with Russia. <

Those who told you so seem to have forgotten Estonia's agriculture and textile industry. And a belief that the neighbours are altruistic while the Soviets were predatory is also a very curious belief which no doubt reflects the official Estonian worldview nobody is supposed to doubt. Is there anything you don't believe your Estonians guides ?

"In your "most prosperous economy in Europe" it is more profitable to clean latrines in Australia or the UK than work in an Estonian office"

GIK >Why does the world seem so bleak to you - why do you always picture the worst outcome?<

Ianus "I don't care about 'bleak or bright" "the worst outcome or the best outcome". What I care about is truth."

Truth is infinite - so where do you actually stop? If you care about truth - then , whether you interpret it as bleak or bright - know that there are little to no Estonians cleaning toilets in Australia.<

Truth is the correspondence between words and reality- nothing more. So don't invent infinities where something different is involved.

Ianus: "Now why must the truth be identical with "bright" or "the best outcome" to your mind ?"

I never said it did. Why do you suggest that I would make that assertion. Truth is what is - but to us humans with our limited senses and miscomprehension of reality - we often settle for a good-looking approximation - and for many - it becomes truth when it coincides with their biases.<

Who at your hinting at? Me or you?

> A favourite quote ' The truth has never denied the seeker…only the seeker who has denied the truth."<

It sounds reasonable if applied rigorously. Otherwise you may abuse it to target anything and anybody you dislike. 'Oh, you hvae denied the truth, you know .Drop your numbers! I have seen a movie where they showed happy rich Poles. Your two-thirds living in poverty can't be true ! go around and look for my reality you will for sure find it somewhere in Poland!'

Submitting....

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