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Reader comment on item: Uncovering Early Islam
in response to reader comment: "The greatest pogrom of the middle class in world history"

Submitted by the Grand Infidel of Kaffiristan (Australia), Jul 2, 2012 at 01:58

"One way of circumventing inconvenient facts and insights is not to raise questions that might suggest what one wants to hide. "

Like the rest of the world asking about Katyn you mean?

"The West just like the Moslem East has developed an amazing mastery in this respect . My guess is that the decline of the Western education system since the 70-ies has had much to do with solving this task, namely to make young people stop asking independent inconvenient questions and instead choose from pre-suggested questions."\

Well not having been brought up in the educational system in the West in the 70's - yours is just a guess. Young people then and now cetrtainly did ask inconvenient questions

"As to what you want to learn from me , I can tell you that my father served as a soldier on the Polish-Soviet frontier in 1929-1930 near Baranovichi – a major railway knot- and so he knew officers from his units who were later killed. And what did he think ? The same I do. War is war and soldiers are there to die. "

Pretty glib answer. So - can I use that as a response to all this bitching about communism vs capitalism. You could choose to see it as a type of war - and well, casualties, you know.....war is war...

"....As to the questions you ask let me note that the Russians have admitted they had done it."

Re Katyn - what I was getting at also was the fact that it took Russia how many years to admit it - hardly being up front and transparent is it? And WHY did they do it tofellow Slavs? What was Stalin's problem?

Ianus: "So here is one the reality : not boasted about on Australian TV "One-in-three live in absolute poverty in Poland. One-in-five can't afford to adequately heat their homes .."

What is absolute poverty? At least they HAVE homes.

Ianus: ". two thirds of Poles cannot afford an annual holiday away from home"

that has happened to me - and I'm sure many others - in western countries

Ianus "....and 21 percent are not able to have a meal with meat or fish every second day. "

I do that by choice. You don't HAVE to have meat every second day. Once a week is enough in fact it is actually good for you to not have meat more than 3 times a week as new studies show.

GIK "??? We are free to research and 'read whatever we like - so you hold other incorrect assumptions.<

Ianus: "I doubt your statement is correct. It's too good to be true. Medieval hate speech laws and freedom of research and speech can hardly co-exist.Just disagree in public with the official view on race and we will see how long you will remain free and unharrassed."

It is not illegal to hold and express viewpoints on anything where I live - as long as I don't incite actions which would harm any group of people on racial, religious or sexual orientation. But of course I can say that I think Mo was a child molesting thief for example. I can legally fly a Swastika in my backyard - or a Hammer and Sickle if I wished. Front yard - somebody would complain to the council . I could blare out 'Rossiya' on my stereo system at 7am each weekday morning and then the Horst Wessel Leid on Saturdays and Sundays and put a massive picture of Stalin in a front window and Hitler in another. The only thing stopping me is people would think I was a total nut job .Would they be right or simply misunderstand?

"Do you remember that in my uncle's home the portrait of Stalin was next to a holy icon? You find it obscene, I don't. Stalin did a lot of good things you not only have never heard of but refuse to hear of , "

You think Stalin was a nice guy ? It wasn't Stalin personally though - don't you get it? He was a paranoid, self serving tyrant,. If it made him look good to curry favour with Poles by signing a paper that ended up giving them property he took from other people - he would do just that. No skin off his nose. After all - he had 1/6th+ of the world's land surface at his disposal.

... I have met too many Western "humanists" of that sort not to know what I am talking about. It's impossible to discuss anything with them that runs counter to their ideology-driven worldview.

"As to me on reading your well-meant comment I thought about your earlier statement that the communist system was a failure suggesting the present one isn't ."

> I will wager that 70 years under non-communism (and non-Islam) will have a better outcome for Poles than a further 70 years under communism.<

"In the 80-ies we had some 4% of people living in poverty. As you see nowadays after 20 years of forcible capitalism we have some 60%. .....creates mass poverty and debt traps from which nobody will ever able to get out and then it tells us how bad communism was and implicitly that Katyn is more important that 25% of school children growing up in poverty !"

So everything the citizens were expecting the State to provide them from the cradle to the grave (apart from free health and education)n was taken away and they had to fend for themselves - just like every other Western country? You want me to cry?

Are you implying the people I have asked will give the same responses as are given on Western TV ? Imagine that in Lithuania with c. 3 mln inhabitants 500 000 have emigrated. Lithuanians must be enthusiastic about it. In Latvia - every third Latvian has emigrated. "

All those countries have a legacy of the Soviet system - which meant they had living standards below par with the rest of Europe. And how many Russians would migrate if they could?

"Estonia reserves its privileges to "die estnische Herrenrasse",

Oh, you mean the Baltic Germans?

"so if anything bad happens like unemployment or sky rocketing health care or education costs the first ones hit by it are the so called "non-citizens". The Estonians must feel comfortable about it , don't they?Nobody blames them for their apartheid polity."

The fact is that former Russians living in Estonia have as much right to healthcare there as do Estonian citizens.

>I don't recall saying any system was a 'success'. <

"Any problems about with capitalist paradise? You didn't mean to say how bad communism was as contrasted by the wonder that is capitalism? "

I did not say that - but now that you are - why isn't everybody embracing communism?

> I can say centrally controlled command economies are a failure -

"..So tell me why the US economy which is not a centrally controlled economy is such a failure? With debt surpassing its budget and yet 25% defense spending this is hardly a paragon of success or free economy , is it ?"

Yet you complain that America uses 40% of theworlds resources or something? And in any case - America is one country. Canada, Australia, Japan, Germany and now Russia are not centrally controlled economies.

"The other difference is that the Chinese capitalist doesn't spend his billions on buying chateaux in the Bahamas but on reinvesting them at home and his dreams are much more modest - to have a shrine of ancestors' cult where his image will be once worshipped "

Not true at all. Wealthy Chinese buy chateaux and expensive houses wherever they can - even here in Sydney. Let me assure you theyt can equal and exceed anything Americans do.

while conspicuous consumption is all America's rich are obsessed with.

"They plunder natural resources and place the $ billions they get on Western bank accounts. It is how it has been working since Yeltsin's days."

So there are some greedy, ruthless Russians who could care less for the country and system they were brought up in?

"The West gets richer , the Russians have c.4 mln homeless children and the second biggest number of billionaires."

You can't blame the West for having the system it does -it's inherently Western. Well, you can, but that's pretty pointless. I haven't seen a cent of any Russian billionaire's money - unless you mean it goes into taxes in the West and then into consolidated revenue of whichever country they launder their money in .And China has the most billionaires - or is it still the US?

"And what happened to Estonian agriculture? Did it boom ?"

No - other sectors in its economy have instead. But it does serve the needs of its people perfectly well. It's not told to send the meat and milk to Moscow any more.

It is on Cuba where education and health care are free or in China that is going to surpass the US economy by 2016 ..if no war against it is organized.

Education and health are free in Australia. We do not have a communist government. Not that 'we' are perfect but my country and others in the group you love to dislike do generate money and equipment to donate overseas when disasters strike. Do Cuba and China figure prominently on the ground when these things inevitably occur? I've noticed since 1991 - even Russia turns up these days to help.

"For those who believe that inequality, mass poverty and privileges based on wealth are a natural order of things this may seem to be the case."

I don't know anybody who believes those things - nor do I know anybody who thinks individual's natures and circumstances are identical.

"...For others like me these things have never died and will never die and they are as real as the injustice and conempt for huamnism and equality that I am observing around me in this brutal and dirty system enforced upon us with lies and false promises. "

So you';re a freedom fighter? What do you personally actually do in a practical way to help the poor starving people around you lift themselves out of their misery? Set up any communal greenhouses maybe? Maybe a freshwater fishfarm? These are cheap to set up and operate.

Ianus "And before history ends for good don't be so sure this nasty world created by suicidal neoliberalism will last for ever. "

Why would I think that - any more than Pax Romana or the Reformation or Communism or any other system (or individual) lasted.?

"They understand that it is neoliberalism that needs euthanasia or a more violent treatment."

hey , how about a repeat of Russia, October 1917? Greed is greed - and the pigs with their snouts fully immersed in the trough ALWAYS pay for it somewhere along the line.

"....What I see in the West is not freedom but an illusion of freedom behind which everything is controlled, organized and run in the interests of the real masters of the West -finance capitalists and monopolistic corporations. "

You should get out more and see what's really going on.

"How they operate you may learn from someone who has worked for them and calls himself an economic hitman - John Perkins - a remarkable person and a remarkable story that reveals and debunks lots of things , including many a naive narrative of yours."

Such as?

Ianus: "With the wounds of 1914-1918 and the trauma of Versailles Germany reacted in a way any country with a sense of dignity would and should react to being used for mopping the floor with."

So you're OK with September 1939?

"...We both agree that European immigration is a friendly immigration and Moslem immigration is a hostile immigration, don't we?"


"Will you question the statement that he saved Slavs from extermination , something which is going on now in all Slavic lands through degradation of education, drugs, poverty,demographic downfall and hostile immigration ?"

I don't know that Saint Dzhugashvili did do that at all. But if you think he did - anhd that's what matters isn't it - do you want another Stalin (who wasn't even a Slav) ? And just to make it a little more complex if you want to bring ethnicity into it - as you would know - many Russians aren't Slavs at all - many being descendants of Finno-ugric and Scandinavian people.

Russia now has plenty of money coming in they could divert to education and health now. No one is stopping them.

GIK: "another of Wheeler's quotes: "We live on an island surrounded by a sea of ignorance. As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance. "

Brilliant but - alas- quite useless to explain what has happened to Northern Cyprus and the Balkans.

Politics is dealing with and influencing minds. I am not attempting to explain Balkans or Cyprus - but in the end it all boils down to faulty human perceptions.

"And have you heard any thing anything negative about NATO? Never heard of Operation "Dropshot", "Plan Totality", "Operation Unthinkable" , Operation "Cyclone" ...? Are you really such an ingénue or just working for finance capitalism you can't question its military leg , to speak figuratively ?"

Because I've said I've worked in the finance industry - I therefore can't question any military/political action anywhere in the world? I don't think you lack the intelligence to answer your own question.

"....Please do and ask him how many NATO planes are now stationed in Estonia and how long it will take them to reach and bomb St. Petersburg !"

In terms of numbers of Nato planes - very few - no more than in Finland. And do you seriously think they want to??

You can have slave/coolie labor with a legal fiction they are no slaves/coolies at all.I saw it here. They laid off the locals whom they had to pay 4-5 zl per hour and hired some Philipinos or Chinese who got 1-2 zl and were treated respectively.

Maybe in Poland - but not in Australia.

Ianus: "And now tell me how many Estonians were involved in collaboration with the Nazis? For what the Estonians did a Russian was shot dead on the spot and not sent to the gulag."

I imagine a percentage similar to how many Finns were fighting against the Red Army post WW2 .And how many Estonians fought with the Red Army? Doesn't that prove to you that at least they weren't all bad?

> In any case - population growth from X to X +dX does not indicate how happy they were with their lives. Population growth in muslim countries/enclaves exceeds the Estonian figures by a mile - I don't see them in ecstatic bliss.<

Moslem population growth is possible only because the surplus population emigrates to colonize the West. You would see what happens if all the doors to the West were closed to the demographic Moslem invasion. Islam would implode with cannibalism and internal wars to restore the fragile demographic balance.

Let it - see if I care.

"By its suicidal demographic policy and promotion of hostile immigration the West is digging its own grave."

We do have limits.

"Speaking of "freedom" no strings attached" and investments , how many Estonains to your mind know that c. 97% of their banking system is owned by Scandinavian banks and are not their property any longer? Were they really fighting for Swedbank ,SEB, Nordea and Danske Dank to possess Estonia or not for something else ? Or don't they know Rothschild's saying " Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes its laws"?

Well, I'm still sure that if you ask current Estonians - they are quite happy to have more of something - rather than more of nothing. In their free and democratic elections - they do not vote for heavily socialist or communist parties. If you believe they have the right to decide for themselves - how can you complain about their decisions?

"And now nobody is telling from the center in Brussels what to do and what not to do?"

the whole point of the EU was to stop or curtail duplication and waste - not to create a command and control economy. To do so - they have had to draw up certain rules however I don't agree with them all personally. I do not believe the political systems of all the member states should be swept aside to be subsumed by a central authority. It sounds like a backlash to Statist policies from Brussels is happening and I hope it continues.

"They are happy with austerity perhaps because in the apartheid state of Estonia the costs are borne first of all by non-Estonian non-citizens."

What apartheid? I was not treated unfairly when I was there (apart from being abused by some drunk Russians on a bus once - for no other crime than not understanding what they were saying). Are you talking about those Russian citizens who have not taken up freely offered Estonian passports? And as for language - should Chinese wh move to Australia start demanding that things be taught in Chinese in our schools? Should Germans or Zulus who migrate to demand that German or Swahili be used in Polish schools? Another example of why you should go up to Estonia and see for yourself rather than talking through your current prejudices. If you're going to have prejudices - at least keep them well-informed and up to date - and not from 1941 or even 1991.

"A nd as to the reality of Poland don't even ask me because I am not going to tell you an economic fairy tale you would like to hear from me."

Once again you are labouring under the illusion that I am a neo-liberal economic rationalist. It's good that you've taken the small step in realising I'm not American though.

"It seems that they produce what they did under the previous regime with one essential difference you didn't tell me. Estonia was a major agrarian land with some 60% of food exports going eastwards. What has happened to Estonia's agriculture since 1991? "

Let me guess - the food exports don't go eastwards any more?

Ianus: "A country that produced milk and meat in excess has been flooded by cheap products from its more powerful EU bosses who routinely subsidize their own agriculture that is ruining Estonian farmers. You ahve to pay a high price for having the new bosses, don't you?"

Rather than live in fantasy - maybe just read what the Estonians themselves know about their agricultural sector. The country no longer now needs to produce meat and milk to excess - other countries possibly do that more efficiently. One of the small benefits of the EU system (which should have progessed no further than free trade between states and not have power hungry but otherwise weak and insipid individuals like Van Rompuy trying to make it more than it is) - are that you can buy fresh tomatoes in Helsinki in the middle of winter. One small thing sure but it is a better use of resources. Why waste fuel trying to heat greenhouses in Finland when you can truck in fresh Spanish tomatoes overnight?

Ianus:"while for political reasons it closes it s borders on its only natural market - Russia ?"

gik : "What is so 'natural' about the Russian market? It is a completely contrived market. Were Estonians - who also have very strong historic and genealogical links with Swedes , Danes ,Germans and Finns allowed to have traded frreely with those counjtries since WW2 - those markets would be as large as any markets with Russia. <

Ianus: "Those who told you so seem to have forgotten Estonia's agriculture and textile industry. And a belief that the neighbours are altruistic while the Soviets were predatory is also a very curious belief which no doubt reflects the official Estonian worldview nobody is supposed to doubt. Is there anything you don't believe your Estonians guides ?"

I have no Estonian 'guides'. I've taken the step of actually going there and seeing the place for myself, meeting people, making my own judgements. One instance I recall on my first trip in 2002 - was meeting a German tour operator who was taking a coach of German tourists up through Lithuania,Belorussia , St Petersburg and then to Tallinn. He had not been to Estonia since 1986. He said he could not believe he change in the country and the people - from drab and colourless and dispirited - to bright and vibrant. Better roads, brighter colours, a feeling of optimism etc etc.

So rather than sit there and bitch on about the evil, deluded Estonians - why not take the relatively short drive (by Australian standards) up there and actually see for yourself? I did and I'm 17,000kms away. You're just down the road .

"In your "most prosperous economy in Europe" it is more profitable to clean latrines in Australia or the UK than work in an Estonian office"

GIK >Why does the world seem so bleak to you - why do you always picture the worst outcome?<

Ianus "I don't care about 'bleak or bright" "the worst outcome or the best outcome". What I care about is truth."

GIK - Truth is infinite - so where do you actually stop? If you care about truth - then , whether you interpret it as bleak or bright - know that there are little to no Estonians cleaning toilets in Australia.<

Ianus - Truth is the correspondence between words and reality- nothing more. So don't invent infinities where something different is involved.

I don't have to invent 'infinities'. Your reality , the one you live in and judge and criticise and object to and fight against , in a very basic way is the invention of your own mind. Just pretend for a second that everything you know is 'wrong' - and the world you see is not the one that exists. And everything you think you know - just exists in your head alone.

Ianus: "Now why must the truth be identical with "bright" or "the best outcome" to your mind ?"

GIK: I never said it did. Why do you suggest that I would make that assertion. Truth is what is - but to us humans with our limited senses and miscomprehension of reality - we often settle for a good-looking approximation - and for many - it becomes truth when it coincides with their biases.<

Ianua>>Who at your hinting at? Me or you?

You don't see it applies to everyone?

"I have seen a movie where they showed happy rich Poles. Your two-thirds living in poverty can't be true ! go around and look for my reality you will for sure find it somewhere in Poland!'

You can find poverty in Australia if you look hard enough - there are always outliers on any bell curve. So has Poland ever been wealthy at any stage? When did it start to go downhill - before 1939?

Let's just wind this subject up here - though if you insist on having the last word because yours is the only true and valid viewpoint on this everchanging and plastic reality we live in and it must be expressed - I will probably read it - and try to resist replying again.

As for me - I am far more apolitical than yourself and realise that whatever opinions I hold - they won't matter much in 200 years. In the end - it's better to be happy in oneself than 'right'.

I get your viewpoint; Simplified - Capitalism and using one's own initiative = bad. Communism and Soviet heroes (and heroes in general) = good. Estonians = bad. Russians = good. Part of the world as you imagine it once was = good. Current world = bad. But these are all just learnt perspectives aren't they? Does the 6 month old girl in the house down your street know or care about any of it? What has she and you and I got in common? Life and our present and our future of course. Let's focus on that and work towards improving them.


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