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To Rayes: Why do you avoid answering the questions Oliver has directed at you? Part I

Reader comment on item: Ban Islam?
in response to reader comment: Reply for Mr. Oliver

Submitted by Plato (India), Nov 11, 2007 at 05:29

Rayes Oliver raised some points to which you have responded with some material which sounds suspiciously like Harun Yahya's work. Specifically, what you as a Muslim should have responded in your defence of Islam are these three points he has raised.

1.>>When I read an English translation of the quran (of which I have 7 - all translated by muslims) I come away with a lack of any understanding of context but a full understanding of the author's message of hatred toward 1] poly-theists, 2] unbelievers, 3] Jews and 4] Christians. Based on the clear teachings of the quran - islam is tolerant ONLY of islam - all other 'beliefs' must be at worst elliminated or at best subjurgated. I do not hear MY GOD communicating to me in the quran.<<

Oliver mentions having 7 translations of the Koran. You ask that Pickthall and Yusuf Ali give the true picture of Islam with their translations (the seven probably include these two). In your answer you have not touched upon the 4 points he has mentioned i.e Allah's hatred towards all of humanity except Muslims. Please take out your Yusuf Ali or Pickthall and read the following hate verses: 2:89, 2:65, 2:161, 4:46, 4:47, 9:30. These are just a random selection of the Almighty Allah exposing his helplessness by cursing people who do not believe in Him. Only a helpless being is reduced to cursing. If He had the power He would have either destroyed them or changed their hearts and minds.

>>You quoted the first few ayat of the 2nd sura - it begins with 'Alif Lam Mim' - a quranic 'miracle' - PLEASE!!!!!<<

Twenty nine surahs have alphabets of Arabic. Some have Alif, Lam , Ra. The very fact that interpreters of the Koran vary in their assessment of what these letters mean these surah's start with something ununderstandable.

My copy of Pickthall has this to say about them: "Three letters of the Arabic alphabet. Many surah's begin thus with letters of the alphabet. Opinions differ as to their significance. The prevalent view being that they indicate some mystic words. Some have opined that they are merely the initials of the scribe. They are always included in the text and recited as part of it."

Here is Pickthall saying that opinions differ on their significance. He is reluctant to admit that no one has a clue to what they mean. Importantly, what this means is that many surahs begin with letters whose meaning is disputed. So Muslims to this day have no idea of what the first verse of many surahs they recite mean.

If they are initials of the scribe it means that Muslims have been reciting not just the Koran but material that has been interpolated by the scribes at the very beginning of the verses!

The conclusion that is forced upon us is that the Koran despite claiming to be a clear book is opaque in several places or that scribes have managed to put in verses that do not exist in the unadulterated Koran kept in paradise.

Interestingly, a translation by Maulvi Muhammad Ali, translates Alif, Lam, Mim as ‘I am Allah the best Knower.' His reason being Alif, Lam, and Mim are the first, middle and last letters of the words: ana, Allah and a'llamu (I, Allah and knower). This is an example of interpreters of the Koran huffing and puffing to read meaning into meaningless verses in the Koran.

3.>>May I suggest that submission is not an act of the 'Heart' but of the 'Mind'. Submission, particularly as it relates to islam, is the response of the mind in fear of some present or future action by the feared party. For instance; one might submit to allah in order to escape future suffering at the hands of allah in hell-fire (it is interesting that from a Christian perspective, it is Satan and his minions that dispense suffering in hell-fire), or one may submit to muslem subjugation and pay the extortion tax to escape the threat of future punishment at the hands of your friendly muslem subjugators, or one could resist ..<<

Rayes, Oliver is right in saying that submission should be an act of the ‘heart'and not of the ‘mind' (though I am personally against any submission to these almighty gods). Your Koran insists on instilling fear into people to make them submit to Allah.

The very second verse of Surah 2, after the meaningless alif, lam, mim which you quoted in a previous post says: This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;

Allah asks you to fear Him, not love Him. Allah emphasizes this need to fear Him in innumerable verses. 22:19-22, 44:44-48 give us horrifying descriptions of what happens to unbelievers in Hell. This is like a dictator threatening you with torture if you do not give him your allegiance (Saddam, Hitler, Stalin…). And like all dictators Allah takes pleasure in telling you of his power to destroy and terrorise in 7:4.


22:35 YUSUFALI: To those whose hearts when Allah is mentioned, are filled with fear, who show patient perseverance over their afflictions, keep up regular prayer, and spend (in charity) out of what We have bestowed upon them.

In this verse Allah wants peoples' hearts to be filled with fear when His name is mentioned.

Allah terrorizes and fills people with fear to induce belief in Him. Rayes, can you respect and love such a Being??

3. Please respond with a cited ayat from the quran that expresses how mohammad would have islam spread.

Rayes, you have not responded to this request. If you are a good Muslim and have studied the Koran you will be aware of what it tells Mohammed to do to spread Islam. In some places Allah is all reasonableness and charm when He tells the Prophet:

050.045 YUSUFALI: We know best what they say; and thou art not one to overawe them by force. So admonish with the Qur'an such as fear My Warning!

015.085 YUSUFALI: We created not the heavens, the earth, and all between them, but for just ends. And the Hour is surely coming (when this will be manifest). So overlook (any human faults) with gracious forgiveness.

109.006 YUSUFALI: To you be your Way, and to me mine.

But Allah has changes of mood and He says He will not accept any other religion than Islam and He also wants His previous favoured people to be subdued and made to pay a humiliation tax. Left unsaid is what happens if they cannot pay such tax or what happens to infidels. It is an easy guess as to what happens to them. Those who cannot pay up will be either killed or exiled and the pagans who do not become Muslims will be killed as happened in the lands conquered by Muslims.

3:85 YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

009.029 YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

regards Plato

Submitting....

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