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to Ianus and Vindogupt

Reader comment on item: Pope Benedict XVI and the Koran
in response to reader comment: Replies to Ianus

Submitted by tariq (United Arab Emirates), Jan 25, 2006 at 09:00

Before I remove the misunderstandings u have about Islam, let me Thank you both.

By Quoting some verses from the Quran u have made my work easier and only proved that all the negative beliefs ppl have about Islam are actually a result of mistranslations, lies and the Quoting of the Holy Quran without looking at the history of Islam, when and why the verses were revealed, and what verses come before and after that verse, in other words, qouting the Quran out of Context.
So Thank you Ianus
Thank you Vinodgupt

Answers to Ianus' comment titled:"To Tariq the Rightly-Guided Muslim"

" Hm... A Muslim as a Muslim is ALWAYS right..."
I didn't say that. In Fact I have said in my previous comments tht some Muslims act against Islamic laws and think that what they are doing will get them a place in heaven.

"...if he says something he makes it into a "fact"... "
It is a fact tht according to Islamic principles, what Osama and Saddam have done will sent them straight to hell.

"If so then "Muslim" must mean a "peacemaker" !"
So now you're trying to change the rules of Arabic? If so, what are u implying? That Muslim means peacemaker or that the word Islam DOES NOT come from the word salam meaning peace?
it doesn't matter what ur implying. ur wrong and Muslim means one who submits.

" The word "salam"(as 'peace', 'greeting') is used 42 times in the Quran without any connection with Islam. What is true is only the fact that both words belong to the same root (S-L-M)..."
The salam as peace has been used in the Quran 53 times. And all of them have a connection to Islam as Quran is the primary source for Islam. Therefore ur comment was totally illogical and absurd

" What is true is only the fact that both words belong to the same root (S-L-M) "
Wrong Islam is derived from Salam itself and not just sharing the same root slm.

"Having a very good idea about something without knowing what it means sounds like 'I understand you but I don't know what you mean'."
u said "Credo quia absurdum." to my comment: "and moderate muslims are the true muslims."
Obviously u don't agree with me therefore i have a good idea what u were trying to say. Perhaps you meant that my statement is totally false? Its not false because:
Moderate Muslims ARE the true Muslims because you don't just become a true Muslim by saying tht you're a Muslim. You have to do wot the Quran says.

"Ianus : Let's say a paraphrase of 9.029 ("Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "

Read my comment from the start: "...all the negative beliefs ppl have about Islam are actually a result of mistranslations, lies and the Quoting of the Holy Quran without looking at the history of Islam, when and why the verses were revealed, and wot verses come before and after tht verse, in other words, quoting the Quran out of Context."

The most famous verse tht non-muslims use to prove their lies is verse 9:5 which says:

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. "
sura 9 was revealed during a war. wot do u do in a war? kill your attackers. So verse 9:5 commands Muslims to kill people attacking them and 9:6 tells them to escort their enemy to safety if they want asylum. ever seen this happening anywhere else? ESCORT your mortal enemy to SAFETY?
Verse 9:6
"If one amongst the Pagans asks thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge."

Just like verse 9:5, verse 9:29 does not refer to non-muslims in general but the pagans of makkah who persistently violated the treaties and tried to destroy peace. The command was not general but only refers to particular groups of the Makkan idolaters and used to harass the Muslims whenever they found them helpless and when overpowered prayed for amnesty by making treaties which they used to break before their ink was dried.
verse 9:29 does not say all non-muslims should be subdued only the non-muslims who have acted like these pagans of makkah did.

And jizya should be paid by all Dhimmis. Literally Dhimmi means protected people. These people have special rights e.g. they can eat pork, drink wine, gamble, etc amongst themselves. They can even trade in these things.(even though all this is haram in Islam) and they can freely build their places of worship. Only the working dhimmis have to pay jizya, children, old ppl, disabled etc are exempt from. and jizya is very little money. Much less than wot muslims have to pay for Zakat.(another kind of tax)

Tell me one thing Ianus. Is paying tax evil?

"otherwise a small bland talk heard in a provincial Pakistani town"
have u been to pakistan? if so, than u should know one thing; just like christians who dont know christianity, and hindus who dont know hinduism, there are muslims who dont know Islam. These muslims are mostly found in poor countries like india and pakistan.

"I see ... the overwhelming 'facts' are against me"
thts true. only u dont know all these facts.

"I dare make this "fact" debatable"
Which fact? I was only saying that when it comes to Islamic laws, Quran is the most reliable source. This is because it is the primary source which all Muslims should study.
Only a fool will disagree with the fact that a holy script is not the most reliable source for a religion.

"The curse of Allah is on disbelievers."--2:89 Truly moderate and merciful "
Seems like u two(Ianus and Vinodgupt) are confusing with wot god will do with wot god wants muslims to do. God is the creater of this world. the universe the planets, stars and the fine tuned ecosystem and solar systems.
How can a human be compared to god? How can an idol be ur god when u urself make it, pray to it and then throw it away? God has sent man guidance thru his books, his messengers and followers. And if they still continue to disobey him and commit shirk (equal someone else with Him) they will be punished by god.
Even the bible says tht in hell ppl will burn in liquid sulfur.

"Allah might simply have prevented the disbelievers from coming into being! ..."
God has given humans something no other being has: intelligence and free will. God has allowed humans to act as they want to. This life is a test. The important thing is the life hereafter. God has allowed humans to think for themselves and to decide. Therefore no 2 humans think completely alike and have many different opinions and beliefs. In order to guide them God has revealed books like the Quran and Bible.

"Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment.""

Thank you again Ianus. Thank you for writing this verse. Oh and thank you to you too(Vinodgupt)for quoting this verse.

In this verse God is not asking Muslims to burn any1. He will place ppl in hell (christians also believe in hell) this hell is for non-muslims as well muslims who don't follow Islam e.g. Osama binladen.
Read this verse again. Read slowly and think. Think and tell me how can a human 1400 years ago have thought up this sentence? Its impossible isn't?
Wondering y?
Can u think y it's impossible?
Well i wont keep u in suspense for long. Read the last part again. it says:
"As often as their skins are Consumed We shall EXCHANGE them for FRESH skins THAT they may TASTE the torment"
HOW can a human 1400 years ago know tht at high degree burns, a humans pain receptors are destroyed, and even though they can still be poked hard and feel pain, in their muscles, tendons and bones, fire wont make them feel their skin burn? In hell humans are already dead so they won't die again, but they will need another skin to feel pain.

"Tell me why although Allah is only One and without a companion He constantly uses "we" in His monologues?"

Perhaps the best answer is given by the IRF:-

"Islam is a strictly monotheistic religion. It believes in and adheres to uncompromising monotheism. It believes that God is one, and unique in His attributes. In the Qur'an, God often refers to Himself using the word ‘We'. But this does not mean that Islam believes in the existence of more than one God.

Two types of plural: -

In several languages, there are two types of plurals, one is a plural of numbers to refer to something that occurs in a quantity of more than one. The other plural is a plural of respect.

a. In the English language, the Queen of England refers to herself as ‘We' instead of ‘I'. This is known as the ‘royal plural'.
b. Rajiv Gandhi, the ex-Prime Minister of India used to say in Hindi "Hum dekhna chahte hain". "We want to see." ‘Hum' means ‘We' which is again a royal plural in Hindi.
c. Similarly in Arabic, when Allah refers to Himself in the Qur'an, He often uses Arabic word 'Nahnu' meaning ‘We'. It does not indicate plural of number but plural of respect.
Tawheed or monotheism is one of the pillars of Islam. The existence and uniqueness of one and only one God is mentioned several times in the Qur'an. For instance in Surah Ikhlas, it says :

"Say He is Allah the One and Only."
[Al-Qur'an 112: 1]"

To Vinodgupt:

Ir is not easy to translate the Quran or understand it. You can't just take any verse's literal meaning and follow it blindly. u have to see the Ayats before it or after it. u also have to see y, when, and where it was revealed.(you have to quote it in context)

"Allah is constantly asking His Believers to "make war upon the infidels that dwell around you" (9:123) and exhorting them "when the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them…. (9:5)"

Both the above verses were quoted out of context. Verse 9:5 is the most often quoted verse.
Anyways. Here is the verse 9:120(of course it comes before 9:123):
"It was not fitting for the people of Medina and the Bedouin Arabs of the neighbourhood, to refuse to follow God's Apostle, nor to prefer their own lives to his: because nothing could they suffer or do, but was reckoned to their credit as a deed of righteousness,- whether they(Muslims) suffered thirst, or fatigue, or hunger, in the cause of God, or trod paths to raise the ire of the Unbelievers, or received any injury whatever from an enemy: for God suffereth not the reward to be lost of those who do good"

"It was not fitting for the people of Medina and the Bedouin Arabs of the neighbourhood, to refuse to follow God's Apostle, nor to prefer their own lives to his"

Holy Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) taught the message of Justice, equality and belief in 1 God. This did not go well with the proud and arrogant ppl(most of whom were makkans) and for more than a decade they abused, tortured and made the life of Holy Prophet(PBUH) and his companions a living hell. In Islam all humans have the right to live, and believe in wot they want to. Islam only commands the muslims to tell others about their beliefs and then its up to them if they want to accept Islam or not.
Therefore it was not fitting for his few enemys in madina and the Bedouin Arabs (‘infidels that dwell around him') to kill him just because he is preaching all humans are equal whether man or woman, black or white, girl or boy.
Explanation for 9:5, I have already given.

"Allah Himself has no mercy for the unbelievers. Throughout the Koran he throws them in the fires of Hell and says no sooner their skins are burnt He shall give home new skins so that they may taste His scourge (4:56)."

So what? The pagans lower the level of the creater to the level of humans, animals and idols. The pagans of makkah killed, tormented and tortured his creations; muslims as welll as non muslims. For this and many other things, they will go to hell. And as I have said before, hell is for some kinds of muslims as well.

Verse 4:146:
"Except for those who repent, mend (their lives) hold fast to God, and purify their religion as in God's sight: if so they will be (numbered) with the believers. And soon will God grant to the believers a reward of immense value."
Y do you have a problem with this verse?

Verse 3:116-117 3:116-117:
Those who reject Faith,- neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against God: They will be companions of the Fire,- dwelling therein (for ever).

What they spend in the life of this (material) world May be likened to a wind which brings a nipping frost: It strikes and destroys the harvest of men who have wronged their own souls: it is not God that hath wronged them, but they wrong themselves.

I still don't understand y you have a problem with these verses. I asked Ianus to quote a verse which commands muslims to kill non-muslims or forcibily convert them. Instead you cite verses which speak of punishments that will be received for not doing wot god says: believing in him, speaking the truth, living in peace, being just and treating every1 equally (among many other things)

Verse 3:149:
O ye who believe! If ye obey the Unbelievers, they will drive you back on your heels, and ye will turn back (from Faith) to your own loss.

Before citing the verses you said ‘Allah Himself has no mercy for the unbelievers'
Verse 3:149 has nothing to do with mercy, converting any1 or killing any1.
It only says that Holy Prophet and his followers in Medina shouldn't listen to the pagans otherwise they will be split amongst themselves [back on your heels, and ye will turn back (from Faith)] and it will be their own loss.

Verses 5:10, 10:4, 13: 35, 14:2, and 17:97 all speak about what people who do good will get in heaven and what the people who don't obey god (don't believe in him, lie, are unjust and don't treat every1 equally.
Why it is that Christians believe I hell? How can a religion be a true religion without believing that it IS the true religion? How can a religion be a true religion without having confidence in itself that it is truly the right path?

Next time plz quote a verse which COMMANDS muslims to kill innocent people or to forcibly convert kafirs.

"For Him unbelievers are like beasts ((2:171)"
Where did you get this translation? Your interpretation of the Quran is not as right as it could get.
Here is a translation by Yusuf Ali:
"The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat- herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom."(2:171)

The Quran here is explaining that pagans are misguided like a goat.
What do you call a person who makes an idol, prays to it and then throws it away.
Hazrat Umer(R.A), before converting into a muslim was sitting near an idol looking at it and praying when a dog came near tht idol pi - - ed on it and ran away!
The Makkans at that time used to think that they are more intelligent than the rest of the world just because they were better at poetry.
They used to burn their daughters alive and their sons used to inherit their mothers.
These are only some of the things tht they used to do.
Tell me. Aren't people like them like goats; ‘Deaf, dumb, and blind, (aren't) they are void of wisdom'?

Yusuf Ali's whole translation of the Holy Quran can be accessed at:
The Islamic Computing Centre, 73 St. Thomas's Road, London N4 2QJ U.K. Tel:(071) 359 6233, Fax:(071) 226 2024.

"…prohibits a believer to take either Jews or Christians as their friends (5:51) and not to seek the friendship of the infidels and those who were given the Book before you (5: 56-57"
Islam does not deny Muslims friendship with non-muslims in general. Not in every day life. But only in politics when there are tensions. When this verse was revealed, the Jews and the Christians had much in common, and therefore readily formed an alliance against Islam. Islam prohibits Muslims to leave other Muslims as their friends and befriend those non-muslims who are hostile to them. Otherwise it is ok to have non-muslim friends.

"Please enlighten us as to exactly where, even once, does the holy Book say all religions are good and equal and a believer should respect all religions."

I'm not a hafiz-e-Quran. And I shouldn't be quoting any verses. You should quote the verse which commands forceful conversion of religion. Its not guilty until proven innocent, it should be innocent until proven guilty.

Verse 2:256:
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand- hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things."

"This is only part of the verse and it goes on to say "true guidance is now distinct from error …… It rejects other religions as being equal to Islam. Islam is the only true guidance."
Muslims really believe that Islam is the real religion. How can a religion be a true religion if it leaves a doubt that others could be as good?

"The Ayat 109 saying "I do not worship what you worship…. " This also does not accept equality of all religions. It seems to be a statement in despair as it continues to say "I shall NEVER worship what you worship.""

Which chapter is this from?

" This also does not accept equality of all religions" seems like you are making your own conclusions again.

"It seems to be a statement in despair as it continues to say "I shall NEVER worship what you worship"

Obviously, you would never revert to the path which you believe is wrong. Its just another characteristic of a true religion.

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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