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Agreed - we do want the facts

Reader comment on item: Is Turkey Going Rogue?
in response to reader comment: Facts basic and no more stupid discussion

Submitted by the Grand Infidel of Kaffiristan (Australia), Oct 2, 2011 at 22:33

Mr 'Tim Lock' of Saudi Arabia, trying to justify his contention that the IDF boarded the Marmara with the intention of murdering civilians , still fails to answer two very simple questions:

"does someone who is faced with being beaten to death savagely with metal bars etc - and has access to his service pistol - have a right to use that weapon to defend himself?'

i.e. would 'Tim Lock' of Saudi Arabia do the same thing if he was one of those IDF troops in that or a similar situation?

If the IDF were intent on murdering 'civilians' - why did they not shoot at the 'peaceful demonstrators' from the safety of their helicopters rather than risk their own lives by rapelling down into a crowd of hostile armed muslims? Surely even 'Tim Lock' would consider that the IDF troops were not expecting the welcome they received.

2) The ship was not slightly off your demarcation zone but 72 miles off the blockade zone

Nevertheless the Marmara had fully declared its intention to breach Israeli waters.

4) The intention of the ısraili navy etc. was not to inspect (why would they inspect a ship which would never bne allowed in ısrael) but to halt and divert the ship.

The ship Marmara was warned well in advance by IDF that they were sailing into an area of conflict. They were warned very clearly that they would not be permitted to travel further and should head for the Israeli port of Ashdod. The Marmara deliberately chose to ignore it. They have themselves to blame.

5) Since this is the case, even if this was illegal (to divert and stop) there were several other external means, than boarding with fully armed men. (like ramming or jamming the engine etc)

'Fully armed men ?' - even the Coast Guards and Customs personnel of most countries carry service pistols when intercepting vessels containing contraband. Of course military troops are going to be armed.

6) I dont think you udnerstand the right of a home owner to defend his house and familiy by any means avalibale against an intruder. It was international waters 72 long miles off the blockade zone (your ametour demarcation zone)

'Ametour' ?? The Marmara had declared its intent to sail into an area they were not permitted to. It was suspected of carrying illegal arms. The fact that it did not in this case carry an arms cache does not negate Israels' right to inspect.

7) Assume for a second in case theres a reasonable doubt for a country that a ship is sailing full of weapons and explosives heading towards your land and you had a riggt to preempt (thats even not establihes in law)

That 'reasonable doubt' had been proven correct many times before with the capture of some serious weaponry being supplied by Iran to Hamas. Countries do have a right to pre-empt a strike against their populations. Consider the North Atlantic in WW2. Did the UK and the US not strike against Axis ships whenever they could? Israel is at war with the victims of a sinister ideology

"And 10 persons are killed and no ısraili soldier is seriously wounded. "

If a policeman, member of the military or indeed any civilian - is being attacked by a person or group of people capable of and intent upon killing them - they are legally permitted to take lethal action in order to defend themselves. 4 Israeli soldiers WERE seriously injured.

"......This is pure and cold blooded murder."

Self-defence is not cold-blooded murder.



Some more background on the events from people who were actually there. (as distinct from armchair critics using this event to justify their biases.) :

The statement of an officer aboard the Mavi Marmara

MAVI MARMARA Chief Officer Gökkıran Gökhan

1. The main points of a Mavi Marmara officer's statement:

A. The cargo, which was loaded in Istanbul, consisted of drugs and basic merchandise (which could be seen by the lettering on the packages).

C. The other passengers boarded in Antalya according to a list held by IHH and Turkish Customs. From Antalya they sailed to Cyprus where the other ships were waiting for them.

D. Before the passengers boarded, the captain instructed the crew to make sure there were no weapons or anything that might be considered a weapon.

E. When the IHH operatives boarded the ship they were given walkie-talkies to help them control the ship. Guards posted in the passageways prevented the ordinary passengers from reaching the upper decks. The movements of the crew were also limited and they needed permission from the IHH operatives to go from one place to another.

F. Instructions were given to the passengers by the IHH operatives via the ship's closed circuit television. In addition, a kind of communications situation room was set up for IHH's correspondents.

G. The IHH operatives used disks to saw the ship's railing into metal rods. They also had steel rods they took from the lifeboats. After hearing the sound of the disks, the captain sent two officers to find out where it was coming from. They saw that the IHH operatives had brought disks on deck, contrary to the captain's orders, and were using them to saw the ship's railings into metal rods. They found three disks and confiscated them."

GG: Chief Officer

Preparations on the ship before it was taken over by the Israeli Navy

INT: Interviewer
TR: Translator

GG: While I was on the bridge after dark, before anything happened, the captain called me and the chief engineer; and sent us towards the lifeboats.
GG: There was a crowd in the lifeboat area and some noises coming from there.
The captain told me, "Look, something is happening, there are noises, go and see what's going on."
There were a lot of people there. I said to the chief engineer, "Your authority is higher than mine, come with me."
TR: When did this happen, more or less?
GG: More or less?
TR: Yes, what time was it ?
REC: It's probably the truth.
GG: Nine, eight.
INT: Eight, nine?
GG: Around 8-9 hrs. It wasn't 9 yet. It was maybe 8, I don't know when exactly, but around that time.
TR: OK, yes?
GG: The chief engineer and I went down the stairs together. I don't know that guy's name, the one I told you about.
TR: OK, never mind.
GG: We found him.
REC: Great, he wasted two hours of our time!
GG: He, he was one of the people who had clout.
TR: Just a minute, who did you find?
GG: That guy, the chief engineer would know his name.
REC: He knows his job!
TR: Which guy, from the IHH?
TR: The chief engineer - the one who cut? I mean did he know the IHH guy who cut the iron bars?
GG: No, no, the chief engineer's name is Ekrem Çetin.
TR: Yes, that's another matter.
GG: We went together.
TR: Yes.
GG: There was a crowd.
TR: Yes.
GG: We asked what was going on, what they were doing.
TR: Yes. Did you see them while they were cutting the poles?
GG: The iron poles were already cut. It was all over when we came.
TR: Who cut them?
GG: We didn't see who cut them.
TR: Who was holding the disk?
GG: The disks were on the corner of the stairs and that man was standing next to them. That man that I told you about.
TR: Yes, he was next to it?
GG: Yes.
TR: You mean the IHH person?
GG: Yes.
TR: Who did the equipment belong to?
GG: I don't know. Not to the ship, the ship doesn't have that kind of equipment. There are iron poles on deck, you connect them with chains. They are for the crew, guests or rather passengers while walking on the deck. You take the chain, they pass and then you throw the chain. They were already cut. I saw them cut. I remember now.
TR: This is before it got dark, right?
GG: It was dark. It wasn't yet pitch dark. We had switched the lights on.
TR: You saw them already cut?
GG: I saw them cut. I grabbed one of the guys and asked him who cut the poles. He answered that he didn't know.
TR: Who was it? Crew? A passenger? Someone from IHH?
GG: No, he wasn't one of the crew. It was one of the IHH officers.
TR: From what you say, and I am asking to make sure I understand, it appears that the IHH members were in full command of the ship. And the crew had to ask for their permission to come and go between the decks? The ones they did not know?
GG: Of course they didn't allow people they didn't know to come and go. But since they saw me all the time and knew me, they let me go. They never…
TR: Did they stop the crew that they didn't know?
GG: Sure, sure.
INT: From the beginning?
TR: And was that the situation from the beginning? Since you boarded ship?
GG: Sure, sure.
TR: How did the IHH guys communicate with each other? Using walkie talkies?
GG: With each other?
TR: Yes
GG: Of course. When they boarded the ship at Istanbul they brought walkie-talkies with them. They distributed them among the IHH members and the ship's crew, meaning the captains and the engineers.
INT: They didn't give you one, though?
GG: They did and everyone had a different working frequency.
INT: There is something he (the interrogator) doesn't understand. They didn't allow the crew and passengers to move freely between the decks?
GG: They could move between decks.
TR: From floor to floor
GG: They could move between the floors. Just not here, just here [GG points at a location on the ship's blueprint.]
TR: How many IHH members were there, more or less?
GG: 40.
INT: Was it always the same 40 or were they relieved from time to time?
TR: Did they change or were they always the same 40?
GG: The same 40. About 40 people.
INT: Is that the group that boarded the ship at Istanbul with you?
TR: Were these the people who came from Istanbul with you?

G: Yes.

"...But Israel is paying for it by having lost for a long long time Turkey's friendship.

Turkey's friendship? Turkey has always played a game of expediency when it comes to having 'friends'. Turkey is always a fairweather friend to other nations while they are judged to be of benefit to Turkey.

" It was not a green light for the murder of its 10 nationals (including one Turkish American) at the hands of a Government which acts as if it has a right to murder foreign nationals even at a hint of a slight injury to its soil or people."

again - the bloodshed is unfortunate. However it would not have occurred if the IHH 'martyr's had not left the Turkish port with the intention of confronting any Israeli attempts to thwart their plans . The people who were killed were involved in ruthless attacks on the Israeli boarding party. The IDF soldiers had a perfect right to use lethal force against lethal force they were met with.

B. The ship set sail with 29 crew members and 40 IHH operatives. The leader of the operatives' group was Bülent Yildirim. An operative named Rajip was responsible for logistics. There was also an operative named Tonj.

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".


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4Correction [143 words]IskenderOct 2, 2011 21:10189600
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2and because of that [66 words]AlanSep 28, 2011 12:55189599

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