Agreed - we do want the facts
Submitted by the Grand Infidel of Kaffiristan (Australia), Oct 2, 2011 at 22:33
Mr 'Tim Lock' of Saudi Arabia, trying to justify his contention that the IDF boarded the Marmara with the intention of murdering civilians , still fails to answer two very simple questions:
"does someone who is faced with being beaten to death savagely with metal bars etc - and has access to his service pistol - have a right to use that weapon to defend himself?'
i.e. would 'Tim Lock' of Saudi Arabia do the same thing if he was one of those IDF troops in that or a similar situation?
If the IDF were intent on murdering 'civilians' - why did they not shoot at the 'peaceful demonstrators' from the safety of their helicopters rather than risk their own lives by rapelling down into a crowd of hostile armed muslims? Surely even 'Tim Lock' would consider that the IDF troops were not expecting the welcome they received.
2) The ship was not slightly off your demarcation zone but 72 miles off the blockade zone
Nevertheless the Marmara had fully declared its intention to breach Israeli waters.
4) The intention of the ısraili navy etc. was not to inspect (why would they inspect a ship which would never bne allowed in ısrael) but to halt and divert the ship.
The ship Marmara was warned well in advance by IDF that they were sailing into an area of conflict. They were warned very clearly that they would not be permitted to travel further and should head for the Israeli port of Ashdod. The Marmara deliberately chose to ignore it. They have themselves to blame.
5) Since this is the case, even if this was illegal (to divert and stop) there were several other external means, than boarding with fully armed men. (like ramming or jamming the engine etc)
'Fully armed men ?' - even the Coast Guards and Customs personnel of most countries carry service pistols when intercepting vessels containing contraband. Of course military troops are going to be armed.
6) I dont think you udnerstand the right of a home owner to defend his house and familiy by any means avalibale against an intruder. It was international waters 72 long miles off the blockade zone (your ametour demarcation zone)
'Ametour' ?? The Marmara had declared its intent to sail into an area they were not permitted to. It was suspected of carrying illegal arms. The fact that it did not in this case carry an arms cache does not negate Israels' right to inspect.
7) Assume for a second in case theres a reasonable doubt for a country that a ship is sailing full of weapons and explosives heading towards your land and you had a riggt to preempt (thats even not establihes in law)
That 'reasonable doubt' had been proven correct many times before with the capture of some serious weaponry being supplied by Iran to Hamas. Countries do have a right to pre-empt a strike against their populations. Consider the North Atlantic in WW2. Did the UK and the US not strike against Axis ships whenever they could? Israel is at war with the victims of a sinister ideology
"And 10 persons are killed and no ısraili soldier is seriously wounded. "
If a policeman, member of the military or indeed any civilian - is being attacked by a person or group of people capable of and intent upon killing them - they are legally permitted to take lethal action in order to defend themselves. 4 Israeli soldiers WERE seriously injured.
"......This is pure and cold blooded murder."
Self-defence is not cold-blooded murder.
Some more background on the events from people who were actually there. (as distinct from armchair critics using this event to justify their biases.) :
The statement of an officer aboard the Mavi Marmara
MAVI MARMARA Chief Officer Gökkıran Gökhan
1. The main points of a Mavi Marmara officer's statement:
A. The cargo, which was loaded in Istanbul, consisted of drugs and basic merchandise (which could be seen by the lettering on the packages).
C. The other passengers boarded in Antalya according to a list held by IHH and Turkish Customs. From Antalya they sailed to Cyprus where the other ships were waiting for them.
D. Before the passengers boarded, the captain instructed the crew to make sure there were no weapons or anything that might be considered a weapon.
E. When the IHH operatives boarded the ship they were given walkie-talkies to help them control the ship. Guards posted in the passageways prevented the ordinary passengers from reaching the upper decks. The movements of the crew were also limited and they needed permission from the IHH operatives to go from one place to another.
F. Instructions were given to the passengers by the IHH operatives via the ship's closed circuit television. In addition, a kind of communications situation room was set up for IHH's correspondents.
G. The IHH operatives used disks to saw the ship's railing into metal rods. They also had steel rods they took from the lifeboats. After hearing the sound of the disks, the captain sent two officers to find out where it was coming from. They saw that the IHH operatives had brought disks on deck, contrary to the captain's orders, and were using them to saw the ship's railings into metal rods. They found three disks and confiscated them."
GG: Chief Officer
Preparations on the ship before it was taken over by the Israeli Navy
GG: While I was on the bridge after dark, before anything happened, the captain called me and the chief engineer; and sent us towards the lifeboats.
"...But Israel is paying for it by having lost for a long long time Turkey's friendship.
Turkey's friendship? Turkey has always played a game of expediency when it comes to having 'friends'. Turkey is always a fairweather friend to other nations while they are judged to be of benefit to Turkey.
" It was not a green light for the murder of its 10 nationals (including one Turkish American) at the hands of a Government which acts as if it has a right to murder foreign nationals even at a hint of a slight injury to its soil or people."
again - the bloodshed is unfortunate. However it would not have occurred if the IHH 'martyr's had not left the Turkish port with the intention of confronting any Israeli attempts to thwart their plans . The people who were killed were involved in ruthless attacks on the Israeli boarding party. The IDF soldiers had a perfect right to use lethal force against lethal force they were met with.
B. The ship set sail with 29 crew members and 40 IHH operatives. The leader of the operatives' group was Bülent Yildirim. An operative named Rajip was responsible for logistics. There was also an operative named Tonj.
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