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... denials and reality

Reader comment on item: Is Turkey Going Rogue?
in response to reader comment: Turks and Europeans

Submitted by Ianus (Poland), Sep 29, 2011 at 18:25

Tim Lock from Saudi Arabia wrote :

"Since you confortably claim Turks killed 1.5 million Armenians, you must have some archives from that period"

Check "Deutschland und Armenien , 1914-1918 Sammlung diplomatischer Aktenstücke ",Tempelverlag Potsdam Easter 1919" (freely available online) or the quotes in a comment sent earlier from this extensive and impartial collections of official Imperial German documents on the genocide perpetrated by Germany's ally.

That you're unaware of the existence of historical sources like that is, frankly, not very surprising.Your angry questions show how little you know and how unwilling you're to learn anything else on the subject.So I bet you will tell me the same the nasty braindead Turk told me then "The documents you provide does not have any evidence, even they are government documents, writers of these documents lied to you.Do not believe these lies. Genocide and Turkic cultures cannot be together. Once you know the Turks and the culture, you will realize what horrible blame you make on Turks."

> and answer my questions;

-How many Turks were killed during the Ist WW<

1/ On which front ? 2/ Will we also include those who died in captivity or were killed by bacteria, Turkish filth, rotten food and mismanagement and notorious incompetence of the Turkish medical corps and command? In Sarykamysh out of an army counting some 98 000 soldiers only some 5 000 hungry, ill and demoralized wrecks returned. Sarykamysh was the greatest defeat in the whole Turkish history. Who killed them?The Armenians? What the Russians didn't do winter and Enver's indolence did complete.

> -How many Turks were killed and expelled from the Balkan Europe?<

Definitely too few. 10% of Bulgaria's population is still Turkish and Moslem Pomaks predominate in Greek Thrace.At the same time Turkey's non-Moslem population has shrunk from 30 % to 0,20%.

>-How many Turks were killed specifically by Armenian-Russian Army and armed groups during the war?<

There was no Armenian-Russian army during WW1.The Russians later organized Armenian battalions but they were recruited from citizens of the Russian empire, i.e. Armenians from eastern or Russian Armenia. Recruiting Turkish Armenians was impossible because as you should know all able-bodied Armenians were drafted before the actual genocide started,in late 1914 and were sent into labour batallion where they were worked to death or massacred. What was left in Armenian towns and villages were women, children and the elderly - a formidable "enemy" of the unspeakable Turk, weren't they? Note also that the Turkish Armenians' socially were the middle class - artisans,merchants,bankers,intellectuals forbidden by shariah to carry weapons. It is the Turks that were trained as professional killers which they showed . Anyway, my question to you is how many Armenians were exterminated by Kemalist troops during the Kemalist-Armenian war of September-December 1920 .or teh Kemalist phase of the armenian genocide ?

>-How many Armenians have actyually been resettled in Damascus province of Ottoman Empire<

You mean how many survived the death marches,the lootings, the rapes, the killings by the Kurds and Turks? Few and do you call being abandoned in the Syrian deserts and semi-deserts, where nothing was prepared to receive the "resettlers" as none were to arrive alive , "resettlement"? Fine distortions of semantics on your part !

> -And how many Germans have actually been killed, raped, robbed and starved to death by the Polish, English and Russian forces and armed militia and further how many Germans have been put to concentration camps, all at the and of Sevond World War.<

Since when have you become a champion of the Germans? Their numbers go in millions , some 14 mln expelled, 2-3 million dead in the German East, 600 000 dead in area bombings. Check the corresponding volumes of " Dokumentation zur Vertreibung der Deutschen aus Mittel- und Osteuropa" with eyewitness reports and more in it.

Unlike in Turkey no one denies it here and in our libraries you can find interesting books on that and people are not jailed or assassinated for stating the facts. Now can you name a single library in Turkey, or Saudistan for that matter, where books on crimes committed by Islam, Mahomet or specifically on the Armenian genocide , whose very mention in Turkey is punished with 3 or 4 years in jail , are freely available and discussed ?

> You come clean first and lets talk about my hands, later<

No, it's not as easy as that. If you want to admit that the Turks did commit a number of horrendous genocides of which the Armenian genocide is just one, then there is a better way to do that than changing the topic and accusing the victims or observers of exterminating the Germans. I am not sure if you notice at all that by fleeing from the subject you do admit what you are so furiously hot to deny. And your questions expose your weakness. You say in effect "Yes, Turkish Moslems committed the genocide. So what? Look at the Germans.I am now their champion.I am so moral."

On a general note, I must warn you that the confession of the criminal in NO LEGAL SYSTEM is necessary to establish the authroship of the crime and the guilt. Besides, given the fact that Turks and Moslems in general are notorious aggressive liars and deniers of reality their denials are just an aggravating circumstance for their otherwise hopeless case.Think of that next time you lie about any genocide committed by Moslems against us kafirs.

"Deutschland und Armenien , 1914-1918 Sammlung diplomatischer Aktenstücke ",Tempelverlag Potsdam 1919

Note the date 1919 (April). The book of 668 pages is freely available online. It contains dispatches, cables and reports of the German government officials(ambassadors, consuls, vice-consuls , envoys, military attaches, etc. ) to the German government : the Foreign Office, Reich Chancellary etc. It is worth noting also that this is a source from Turkey's closest wartime ally and friend so that it can hardly be suspected or accused of bias or hostility towards Turkey as might be the case of Entente sources.

Note furthermore that the confession of the perpetrator is in no legal system expected, needed or essential to establish the authorship of a crime.

And ,frankly, who in his senses can expect a confession of crimes coming from Turks whose notoriety for lying and denying is widely known ? Or perhaps can you as a Turk admit a single crime, a single genocide, a single massacre provoked and perpetrated by the Turks during their long criminal and barbarian history ?

Anyway, I'd like to adduce some quotations from the documents to demonstrate the grim reality Turks keep collectively denying :

German Imperial Viceconsul M. Kuckhoff in Samsun 5th July 1915

What is involved here is nothing less than EXTERMINATION or forced Islamisation of a whole nation. The way the deportation order is being carried out threatens to assume forms for which the only analogy is the persecution of Jews in Spain and Portugal...In the vicinity of Samsun all the villages have been Islamized nd the same is true of Unieh" (p.104-105)

[ Kaiserlich Deutsches Vizekonsulat Samsun M. Kuckhoff den 5. Juli 1915

"Es handelt sich um nichts weniger als um die VERNICHTUNG oder gewaltsame Islamisierung eines Volkes... Die Art der Ausführung des Verbannungsbefehls droht Formen anzunehmen, die nur in der Judenverfolgung Spaniens und Portugals ein Gleichnis finden...In der Umgebung von Samsun sind alle Dörfer muhammedanisiert worden, ebenso in Unieh..." p.104-105]

German Imperial Embassy Pera , February, 16 , 1917 Ambassador Richard von Kühlmann

The annihilation of the Armenians has been carried out on a large scale …as a global result this policy of extermination (Ausrottungspolitik) has done much harm to the Turkish state. The atrocities of the anti-Armenian campaign will stain for a long time to come the very name of Turkey and they will provide mighty arguments to those that deny Turkey any character of a civilized country. (p. 321)

[ Kaiserlich-Deutsche Botschaft Pera den 16. Februar 1917 Botschafter Richard von Kühlmann

Die im grossen Umfange durchgeführte Armeniervernichtung …als Gesamtergebnis hat die Ausrottungspolitik dem türkischen Staate schwer geschadet. Die Greuel des Armenierfeldzuges werden schon lange auf dem türkischen Namen lasten und noch lange denjenigen Waffen liefern , die der Türkei die Eigenschaft eines Kulturstaates absprechen …]

German Evangelical Missionary Aid Malatia 26.03. 1917

"The losses of the Armenian people since the deportations in the summer until now have exceeded one million. A part of them have been killed in prisons after horrifying tortures. Women and children perished mostly underway to their deporation destinations because of hunger, epidemics and murder" . p.353

[ Deutsche evangelische Missionshilfe Malatia Malatia den 26.Marz 1917

"Die Verluste des armenischen Volkes seit der Verschickung Sommer 1915 bis heute übersteigen eine Million. Ein Teil wurde in den Gefängnissen nach fürchterlichen Folterqualen getötet. Von Frauen und Kinder starben die meisten auf dem Wege in die Verbannung, an Hunger, Seuche und Mord" p.353]

"From the Black Sea to Syria the name of Christianity has been wiped out, their churches have been closed , their schools emptied, their priests and preachers killed or deported. Except for a few Levant cities all Anatolia has been Islamized. Christian names have been deleted in the registers and replaced with Mahommetan names." p. XXXVII

[Vom Schwarzen Meer bis nach Syrien ist der Christenname ausgelöscht, die Kirchen geschlossen ,die Schulen entleert, die Priester und Prediger getötet oder verschickt. Von einigen Levantestädten abgesehen ist ganz Anatolien Islamisiert worden. Die christlichen Namen sind in den Registern ausgelöscht und durch muhammedanische ersetzt" p. XXXVII ]

As you can see, the documents call the events they are describing with quite unambiguous terms "planmässige Vernichtung des armenischen Volkes" ('premeditated and methodical extermination of the Armenain nation") , "systematische Vernichtung der Deportierten", ("systematic annihiltion of the deportees"), "Armeniervernichtung" ("extermination of the Armenians" ) , "Ausrottungspolitik" , ("policy of extermination") or quite literally "die grosste Christenverfolgung aller Zeiten" ( "the biggest persecution of Christians of all times"). Incidentally, the places were Armenians were imprisoned and tormented are called "concentration camps" ="Konzentrationslager" .

> Anything you are saying is uneducated and can't be proven, you just blame based on nothing, ohh sorry you read to books which are 1. A crime of silence. The Armenians genocide Permanent Peoples' Tribunal. Preface by Prof Pierre Vidla-Naquet Published by Z books 1985<

This is what you definitely don't read nor have any idea of most documents on the subject. But being a Turk what can you know anyway? No Turkish library has these documents or makes them accessible to the Turkish public, no Turkish newspaper or TV channel ever mentions or discusses them, no quotations are allowed, dissent and skepticism are severely punished. For showing them you would be imprisoned for 3 years on charges of "denigrating Turkishness" (Article 301) , as you know better than me.In other words, you as a Turk are the last person on this planet to even raise the Armenian question", let alone tell us what really happened and what didn't , you Turkish lie machine !

> 2. Genocide by Leo Kuper who was a Jurist and he explains the UN definition of genocide and the case of the Armenian Genocide Yale Imiversity press 1981<

and this books proves that Turks did Genocide based on non official documentation, I can only laugh that.<

I am sure you have never read or wanted to read any serious book or document on the subject. And your Turkish laughter has something mixed in it. It's both diabolical and imbecile because I am also quite sure that if confronted you will never recognize any official documentation either and that your demand to submit you some is fraudulent and insincere from the very beginning. And you will deny the official German reports as you deny any other serious documents pertaining to the subject.

> You have to prove the genocide based on official government documentation.<

The book I mention does it and quite well and as early as April 1919 , i.e. long before the Kemalist phase of the genocide began with the Armenian-Kemalist war of 1920 and its horrors, with burning Amrenains alive in their churches in Smyrna, with the cleansing of Cilicia of the last Armenian villages. And again why do you demand something which you will a priori deny?

>Do you know U.S send it inspector to Ottoman o see and do evaluation what is happening during WW1. <

Do you know that the book mentioned has the following report from 12.08.1916 "from Washington we learned that the Turkish government has denied the US request to form a neutral committee of relief for Syria where thousands of inhabitants (Armenians) are dying of hunger" ? (Ibidem p. 287 )

> Do you know what is the result of evaluations, Turks are not killing Armenians, Actually Armenian terrorist groups are killing both Armenians and Turks.<

My question to you. If the massacres of the Armenians are allegedly related to their "terrorist activities", "uprisings", "killing Turks", "conspiring with the enemy" , then why didn't the Turks apply the same "Ausrottungspolitik" towards the Arabs for doing exacty the same crime , nay on even a much bigger and more dangerous scale? Or maybe you have never heard of the Arab terrorists of Emir Faisal spying, ambushing and killing Turkish soldiers in Arabia, conspiring with Turkey's mortal enemy, capturing one Ottoman province after another,taking foreign money and military instructors?

Anyway name the source! The fact is that American archives do tell a different story from your claims ,even though they confirm that the US government for a long time did its best to intentionally conceal the information it had on the Armenian genocide from the American public.

On February, 12th 1916 the Department of State sent a cable to the US embassy in Constantinople where it said

"Inform the Turkish government has received and is still receiving information …giving detailed accounts of the sufferings which have accompanied and resulted from the systematic expulsion of the Armenians from their homes and other mistreatments which thez have undergone.. The department at the present time is considering the question whether or not it I justified in longer withholding from the American people the facts now in its possession."


Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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Title Commenter Date Thread
1Nuclear Turkey? [215 words]AlexandrosJan 10, 2014 10:59212563
1always someone elses fault. [68 words]batya daganJun 29, 2012 10:19196820
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6Going Rogue! [21 words]trans-parereOct 7, 2011 20:07189907
11Turkish translation [17 words]Ayla KosebeyOct 6, 2011 03:01189870
15Dear Mr Tim Lock - ... [505 words]Sinbad the SailorOct 3, 2011 19:13189818
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JUST a reminder [56 words]Wlad The GreatJul 30, 2012 20:35189818
1Seeing Details [50 words]Jay1Oct 2, 2011 19:58189787
9Defying all the rules of law and risking war [272 words]Dan B.Sep 30, 2011 23:37189754
3Blind parrot talk par excellence [153 words]Tim LockOct 2, 2011 15:10189754
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8Havas' comments on Turkey and Israel [237 words]PrashantOct 1, 2011 00:31189710
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2Long Life in Turkey Remains to be Seen [300 words]M. ToveyOct 4, 2011 19:14189710
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2Turkish Hitler [79 words]BlackfeatherSep 30, 2011 11:32189697
2Thank you I wont buy Kurdish News Agency news based on PKK spokesman [36 words]Tim LockOct 2, 2011 15:34189697
1Hiter apologist [7 words]KerryOct 3, 2011 07:42189697
1Congratulations Tim [26 words]İdris SarıOct 4, 2011 21:37189697
your link is also groundless like your comment [101 words]İdris SarıOct 4, 2011 21:44189697
4I really like your posts [432 words]TurkcekonusanamerikaliOct 27, 2011 14:43189697
to türkçekonuşanamerikalı [591 words]havasOct 30, 2011 07:21189697
1Reply to Havas [124 words]Turckce konusanamerikaliNov 3, 2011 17:49189697
3Reply to Havas [416 words]Turckce konusanamerikaliNov 3, 2011 19:08189697
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2What you do what you say [77 words]Taner MersinSep 29, 2011 01:44189675
4Erdogan and Psychoanalysis [42 words]Mark DSep 29, 2011 22:22189675
2... Tim [60 words]KerryOct 3, 2011 07:49189675
Just a partiel fact but I see most have no idea [33 words]Tim LockOct 4, 2011 14:08189675
1Tiresome Tim [31 words]KerryOct 4, 2011 19:06189675
1Mendatious Myopic Tim [4 words]KerryOct 8, 2011 09:41189675
2really? [71 words]Peter HallNov 9, 2011 01:53189675
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4Art J is right [176 words]PrashantSep 28, 2011 20:32189670
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Prashant [10 words]KerryOct 3, 2011 07:53189670
6so Turks have bought new cars [354 words]Selami ZorluSep 28, 2011 18:11189669
2Power struggles [84 words]Rebecca MouldsSep 28, 2011 17:11189667
1An economic initiative to resolve most of the problems. [102 words]SamirSep 28, 2011 17:01189665
3A problem [121 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Jack KalpakianSep 28, 2011 09:56189647
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1Your opinion has support at the highest level. [131 words]TurkcekonusanamerikaliNov 19, 2011 16:44189632
The major Issue is not Turkey as the Isreal the real problem. [197 words]Mohammed MirzaSep 28, 2011 01:55189631
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3Orientalism [112 words]Tim LockSep 30, 2011 02:51189631
2Tim Locke [155 words]KerryOct 2, 2011 09:53189631
1Behind Time Tim [105 words]KerryOct 3, 2011 07:29189631
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Question for Dr Pipes [53 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Jay1Sep 27, 2011 18:42189618
oh dear [20 words]JJ BurkeSep 28, 2011 08:15189618
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7Much is needed before considering all-out war [99 words]Stephen BlantonSep 28, 2011 19:01189617
6... Unhelpful [179 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Tim LockSep 27, 2011 17:10189616
2exposing of the real rogue [76 words]mythSep 28, 2011 04:51189616
8Marmara etc [253 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanSep 28, 2011 18:51189616
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7marmara 2 [298 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanSep 29, 2011 05:26189616
2Nonsense cannot be argued with [326 words]Tim LockSep 29, 2011 18:01189616
4simple question [204 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanSep 30, 2011 00:28189616
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5Agreed - we do want the facts [1936 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanOct 2, 2011 22:33189616
No title [238 words]Tim LockOct 4, 2011 14:58189616
... strikes again [7 words]KerryOct 4, 2011 19:08189616
4hindsight's great [490 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanOct 8, 2011 06:02189616
Your sources? [17 words]Amin RiazOct 16, 2011 21:47189616
3OMG you have a lot to learn Tim [469 words]Peter HallNov 10, 2011 02:32189616
3Tim, Have you ever watched a Television show?? [190 words]Peter HallNov 12, 2011 05:55189616
13Turkey has always been rogue [255 words]IskenderSep 27, 2011 16:15189614
9Brawl Breaks Out at U.N. between Security Staff & Turkish diplomats [314 words]Dan SchwartzSep 27, 2011 16:02189613
9How to use diplomatic immunity ? Throw a woman across the room in the UN ! [517 words]IanusSep 28, 2011 06:44189613
3The rationale for burqas [46 words]Paul S.Sep 29, 2011 18:53189613
16National Interests [18 words]Ayla KosebeySep 27, 2011 15:35189611
5Quranic dicta take precedence over infidels' dicta [134 words]IanusSep 28, 2011 09:57189611
18Laic Turkey [36 words]Ayla KosebeySep 30, 2011 16:45189611
9What is it? It has no freedom of thought and 99,8% Islamization rate and yet boasts of being "laic and democratic"?... The Turkish wonderland! [277 words]IanusOct 2, 2011 14:02189611
15bravery is a nice wisdom [158 words]Ayla KosebeyOct 4, 2011 03:44189611
13Aren't you implying the Turks fully justify their notoriety for crime and barbarism ? [1066 words]IanusOct 8, 2011 10:39189611
6I'm not surpised! [159 words]Jacob ThomasSep 27, 2011 14:56189610
2So southern Europe is falling-apart in either appeasement of non-workers, or a re-run of the Ottoman. Surprised? [523 words]Alex ScipioSep 27, 2011 14:14189608
1Don't forget the issue of water levels along the Euphrates [42 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Aymenn Jawad Al-TamimiSep 27, 2011 14:00189606
9Turkey made the wrong choice, just like Germany in the 1930s [125 words]Jayson RexSep 27, 2011 13:55189604
5Very true [115 words]AnnaSep 28, 2011 06:43189604
1Thats exactly why the murder is murder [117 words]Tim LockSep 29, 2011 12:00189604
3Turks and Europeans [123 words]Tim LockSep 29, 2011 12:06189604
7... denials and reality [2366 words]IanusSep 29, 2011 18:25189604
2Refute it yourself [77 words]AnnaSep 29, 2011 18:31189604
5A better idea [129 words]IanusSep 29, 2011 19:29189604
5Turkish law criminalizes the truth. [83 words]IanusSep 29, 2011 20:29189604
3tim lock [16 words]herbert smytheOct 1, 2011 11:36189604
2Organized Armenian propaganda machine-hungry of identity fed on victim psychology [480 words]Tim LockOct 2, 2011 16:16189604
6... forget the sources and keep accusing the opponent of your own crimes [280 words]IanusOct 3, 2011 08:40189604
10"Somebody else's filth" ;) [610 words]IanusOct 3, 2011 11:29189604
You have no answer [227 words]Tim LockOct 4, 2011 15:55189604
Still that old good orientalist filth [121 words]Tim LockOct 4, 2011 16:50189604
5"Deutschland und Armenien" 1919 vs. Turkish lies [248 words]IanusOct 6, 2011 16:56189604
6Oriental filth old and new [503 words]IanusOct 8, 2011 08:00189604
3too much hate [176 words]havasOct 10, 2011 11:12189604
11Two rogues -Mahomet and Ataturk [1333 words]IanusOct 11, 2011 17:56189604
4Beyond the statistics [352 words]TurkcekonusanamerikaliNov 2, 2011 19:50189604
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w/response from Daniel Pipes
Ron ThompsonSep 27, 2011 13:46189603
1Turkish Anxieties [247 words]M. ToveySep 28, 2011 18:51189603
1Israel relying on the US [124 words]Mark D.Sep 29, 2011 22:34189603
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3Show of Hands-Who is Really Surprised About Turkey [364 words]M. ToveySep 27, 2011 12:46189602
1Biblical catastrophy [87 words]Tim LockSep 29, 2011 12:13189602
1Biblical Catastrophe Indeed-But Whose Nuke? [216 words]M. ToveySep 29, 2011 18:37189602
3Turkey, a "Moslem Model" for the Arab Spring [43 words]LudvikusSep 27, 2011 12:46189601
2A Contrary Opinion [59 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Shel_TRSep 27, 2011 12:34189600
4Turkey did not help during the holocaust, it oppressed its non-Muslim citizens [129 words]IskenderSep 28, 2011 15:22189600
3An eyewitness [145 words]rkmSep 29, 2011 18:59189600
1Jews in the 1930s preferred Turkey over anti-Semitic Christian neighbors. [159 words]Jon OzdamarSep 30, 2011 20:24189600
4Jews of Eastern Thrace in Turkey were oppressed, expelled in the 1930s [123 words]IskenderOct 2, 2011 01:00189600
7Jews and their Turkish oppressors [455 words]IanusOct 2, 2011 14:46189600
5More than 9000 or more than 15 000 ? [41 words]IanusOct 2, 2011 19:36189600
4Correction [143 words]IskenderOct 2, 2011 21:10189600
1Ironically, Ottoman Jews were better tolerated than their Turkish successors [382 words]Jon OzdamarOct 3, 2011 09:38189600
5Jews were oppressed in the modern Turkish Republic [179 words]IskenderOct 4, 2011 00:06189600
8"Turkish secularism" is an insult to intelligence [188 words]IanusOct 4, 2011 14:30189600
5Let's listen to the Jews for a change [383 words]IanusOct 6, 2011 17:38189600
Bektashi Muslims were influenced by Jewish Kabbalism. [78 words]JonOct 6, 2011 18:35189600
8The story of 100 liars [662 words]IanusOct 8, 2011 07:29189600
6Where is Obama? [78 words]jdSep 27, 2011 11:41189599
2and because of that [66 words]AlanSep 28, 2011 12:55189599

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