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"Proud Indian", your comment is full of holes

Reader comment on item: Still Asleep After Mumbai
in response to reader comment: KMAN

Submitted by kman (United States), Jan 30, 2009 at 15:35

I point out the atrocities as facts not as a medium to "hate".

Your comments & mine follow:

"I hope you know that you are turning into the same thing that you yourself abhor!!!! Thrusting your faith on to others!!! I am a hindu and i happen to stay in a city where we have a 500 hundred year old church, I wish to tell you that that place becomes a pilgrim spot every christmas and for every christain who attends mass there are 3 non christians who visit the church. We have never witnessed any incident of hatred , mistrust or voilence against the local christian population."

I have not said anything that says India as a whole ruthlessly attacks all Christians. The fact that you have a few highly visible public pockets where the Christians can worship freely says nothing of the terrible atrocities committed all over the rest of India. Try traveling outside your own little enclave & around the rest of your country.

Entire Christian villages have been wiped out in Orissa and many other places. Rape, slaughter, looting, and burning of homes is very common by raging bands of Hindus up to thousands strong. The Christians try to survive in the jungles & upon returning are faced with either being burned alive or hung if they don't convert back to Hinduism. I will spare you the details of individual cases that would turn your stomach.

"Just answer me the following questions and i hope we clear the air!!!

1) The missionaries in their zeal to increase the numbers in rural india publish pamplets degenerating hindu gods. Would you like it if some hindus produce pamphlets on the character of Mother Mary?? Jesus's relation with Mary Magdalene and try to show the good deeds of lord rama or preach the vedas?? just imagine if they try to open a shop in the vatican city would the local people engage in peaceful dialogue or firebomb the place?? The tribals are convereted surreptiously, the most common practise is use the same rituals of worshipping jesus as hindus do, offer flowers , burn incense sticks, distribute prasad but in place of hindu idols, they use the holy cross. Customize the rituals to indian traditions so that it is accepted."

The Christians of the world have no problem at all with peoples of other religions passing on their beliefs. At the site of the Vatican, no one is attacked for practicing any belief. You would have to search very hard, as I have, all over the planet to find anything even approaching the nature of the virulent nature of attacks practiced commonly against the follwers of Christ. The peaceful "customizing rituals" or "passing out flowers" hardly comes anywhere near the vile and immoral nature that is practiced against Christians. Spreading love is what Christians are about. Who cares how love is exhibited? No, I don't have any problems at all with Indians coming to my country and spreading their beliefs.

"2) There have been numerous evangalists who have thier TV channels where the "Deaf hear the words of Jesus", "The mute speak the word of Christ". Let me remind you there is a nation wide drive to arrest and jail fake self proclaimed hindu gurus who claim to do the same thing but not a single case gets registered against the evangalists.. In fact, Benny Hinn and his likes are welcomed as state guests!!!"

Yes, I am well aware that when grand public events that bring worldwide attention, the Indian government does eveything possible to portray acceptance. The Indian government lies through its teeth about the back country happenings that I mentioned above. The police and military stand by and watch as Hindu mobs rage throughout the countryside. Naturally your press as does ours, too, fail to pass on these little facts. Understand, I don't blame you or those of your people who have no problems with Christians in your city. That is an isolated enclave. The nature of your response shows me that you personally have no tolerance within your heart for those who peacefully pass on the truths of Jesus Christ. Your own hatred seeps through against those who live peacfeully within your country.

I have never had a Hindu in my country come to my door or try to publicly try to say anything about Hinduism. If they did, I would respectfully invite into my home as I do people of other faiths where we talk and exchange our thoughts and then peacefully go our way. I have invited people of many beliefs into my home and treated then with utmost respect. We exchange our beliefs and share food and drink and laugh and talk. This is Christianity at work. We pass on the moral integrity, truth, and love that the Christ taught, and pass on the belief that Jesus died to establish his believers everlasting life in paradise. It is pure love at its highest. We don't get angry except when violence is practiced against us. Even that, most Christians will forgive, and they will pray for forgiveness for their opressors. Learning to forgive is an ongoing process that is hard for all of us, and that no other religion practices.

If you want to live next door to me and practice your faith, I will practice the love Christ has taught me and do nothing to make you or your family feel unwelcome. I will share my beliefs and listen to yours.

"3) You talk about christian missionaries opening churches and educational institutes in india. I agree that is indeed a noble thing to do, but why aren't the conversions happening in Urban cities?? why only rural population opt for conversions?? Isn't this allurement at work?? My mother was admitted to one of the hospitals run by a missionary, every evening the priest use to come by her bedside to share the teachings of bible.. he even tried to convince me to attend a bible study group. you are welcomed to india and check if any hindu priest teaches bhagwad gita or the vedas to non hindu patients in a charitable hospital run by hindu trusts.. you will surely be dissapointed!!!"

The urban conversions happen because that is where the most desperate of your country live. We help them learn to read and write in their own languages. We help street kids to find love and acceptance. And actually there is much conversion within cities. However, the cities are where most of the police, military, and governmet are at. They arrest Christians on trumped up charges of "forced conversions", whereupon they then allowed to use any torture, beatings, rape, etc. that they wish.

Largely, it depends on the ministry. Some go to the cities and some to the countrysides. I personally have heard for years of millions of conversions within the cities, but then I am allowed to freely look anywhere I want to find news. I don't read but a little of biased news, but avail myself of many sources.

I am not sought out by police forces or attacked for my beliefs. I am not ruthlessly tortured or beaten. The women in my family freely walk the streets. (I think Islam will eventually put an end to this.). Millions of people of all faiths live here peacefully with only extremely rare attacks by individuals. Actually, my nation has become a nation of milk-sops that don't even remember 9/11 or hardly any other Muslim intrusions anywere. Mine is a self-indulgent and indifferent nation with a few million real Christians who quietly do God's work at much expense to themselves in time, money, prayer, and effort.

"Dissappointed"? Absolutely not. As for you, I see you still resent the "priests" coming by and offering peacefully to share their beleifs. How terrible that missionaries build hospitols and then freely invite those of other faiths to avail themselves of the services. Yes, we pass on our faith to make better lives for the people of India. Repressing a people ( the dalits) because of the accident of birth, is wrong. The Christ opens the door for anyone who wants to love truth and loves the people of every faith and then go the extra step of helping them. If your religion is mistaken, yes we will pass that on. We all suffer for our mistakes.

One or the other has to be wrong, so, yes, we discuss and point out error and pass on truth. If your truth prevails, then someone doesn't get converted. It's that simple. Truth will win out. It isn't "pride of our own religious selves" that we seek to teach. The love we have for Christ , his sacrifice, truth, and integrity for all human beings is what we pass on. We fully admit to being imperfect human beings ourselves, which is far more than many others do. Pride should not enter into it. Sin is something we continually seek to eradicate from ourselves. We fess up to it (including occassional hypocrisy and self pride) and go on to improve ourselves. It is a lifetime process that is immediately evident in converts.

"4) You often use the words Jesus as the ultimate saviour!!! Doesn't it sound as Mohammed is the gods only prophet and Allah is the only god!!! Do we hindus claim that lord Rama is the only saviour of mankind or the bhagwad gita is the ultimate guide to existance?? Our religion has survived for eons and will survive and yes we do not need to spread the word of our Lord or practice dawa to spread it.. Our land has spawned buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism and tolerated refugees from all over the world, parsees , jews , everybody.. but still we do not feel threatened ..This is because of the liberal outlook of hindusim and the core value of peaceful co-existence. That is probably why we have survived this long."

I think I have already addressed this belief of yours that you practice "peace" in highly visible pockets of your nations. What does this say of the god? Wouldn't a good and loving god wish that all humans would attain to the after life of paradise? If the Hindu god is the god of truth and power then, he will be the one that prevails in discussion.

The compromise and living peacefully together philosophy is just that - a philosophy that never works in practice. As soon as people of one religion ( with the exception of Christians) begins to win converts, the others start violently striking back. It has a nice ring to it, but never plays out in real life. I have spoken at length of the Muslims and how duplicitous it is, but you and I are discussing our beliefs right now, so I won't waste the time going there.

"Yes we have a few diseases known as caste system, untouchability, but tell me dont you have roman catholics, protestants, assyrian, ??? we are tryingto eliminate the maladies and we will suceed eventually!!"

Your caste system has existed for many centuries and is deeply entrenched. If efforts to rid yourselves of it were going to be successful, it would have happened a long time ago. If you are making the effort, then wonderful! I congratulate you for any honest efforts. The truth is, though, that Chrisitianity is bringing instant results from the God of Christ. The God himself which is in far more evidence brings a plethora of results anywhere Indians ask him for a better life. Do you expect apologies for the God who brings real results and doesn't require us to toss scarce food supplies into our bodies of water where it rots and desecrates the very water you use to drink, cook, and bathe in? The God of Christ doesn't teach that we worship animals while tens of millions starve to death all around them. Do your cattle that mingle in your market places carefully defecate and urinate out of the public food distribution places? Do the flies that are drawn to these public animal toilets not spread diseases? Does it not keep people endlessly hopping to satisfy all of the hundreds of gods?

The Roman Catholics, a religion I don't belive in, do not scour the countryside in vast numbers attacking anyone of any belief. Luther, centuries ago, Luther saw the wrong of Catholicism, and started the Protestant movement that adheres much more faithfully to the teachings of Christ which have never changed regardless of any modern translations that only reflect man's changing dialect. The teachings and their meanings stay the same. That is one of the ways Christianity continually re-directs and corrects itself. God himself through his Holy Spirit does the greater part of the work to re-direct his people back to the truths in his Word. As man always does, he wanders, and God re-directs. Some don't care to listen, so they get radically off course.

I don't personally blame people who worship false gods. The accident of birth isn't one that I can claim any credit for, so I don't blame anyone for the god they worship. The problem is being unwilling to put any god up to the tests of truth, moral integrity, and love. This is where people will answer to God at the end time of judgement. But, if you wish to go on practicing any other belief, then by all means do. That is your choice. God has no interest in forcing anyone to buy in to Him. However, your choice to evade Him and his truths will be put before you at the end.

I make no claims to any moral superiority for myself. The God of Jesus Christ found me in my own cess pool of atheism and presented me with truth, love, and his absolute and moral righteousness. He is a God of absolute supenatural power and isn't above displaying it frequently for those who give themselves to Him for their benefit.

"Poverty exists in every religion, but to use poverty as a tool to sell christianity and to allure people to abandon thier faith probably defeats the very purpose of the good deed. A poor hungry christian would probably accept hindusim if i were to do the same thing!!! does it mean we go to latin american countries and spread the word of vedas / upanishads. I am sure the local population will probably do the same thing what happened in Orrisa."

"Poverty" isn't used as a tool to "sell" anything. The God of Christianity is free for the taking. It speaks to the God we worship and believe in that he tells us to go tto those who hurt most. From the very beginning of The Old Testament, God told his people to see to the needs of their own widows, orphans, and the "aliens" that pass daily within their midst. He is a God that hurts for the hurting. Where is there a problem here? If you choose not to help your own hurting, why do you put down those who do and do so the most effectively?

As a matter of fact Christians die every day rather than convert, so why would a little food change their minds? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it is very rare compared to the huge numbers who die and suffer atrocities to hold onto their belief.

If you choose not to go to Latin America or anywhere else, then I guess it speaks to the nature of your god(s) that they have no heart for those who suffer. If you yourself have no heart for those who terribly suffer, then, ok, if that's the "god" you wish to worship, fine. The One God will throw all this up to you at the end. It is very convenient for those in Hindu nations who are in positions of wealth and power that they believe it is because they lived some "good past life". That conveniently exempts them from having to do anything for their poor, starving, uneducated, and repressed, because they "didn't live a good past life". And then they hate those who would help them live better lives.

If the fact of a truly loving God who insists on truthfully following Him and helping His mankind bothers you, then all I can say is, I see why you don't bother trying to spread Hinduism. If you have a heart for righteousness, your fellow man, truth, obeying God, then I might suggest you change the name you call him by.

And, by the way, I see you are aware of "Orissa" and what goes on there. I see that the Hindus leaped at the chance to find some lie that "Chrsitians had slain a Hindu leader" even after the communists clearly came out and claimed credit for themselves. Once again, the Hindus buy into "convenience" in instantly believing a lie so they can go out by the thousands and rape, torture, slaughter, burn, loot, etc. So, on the one hand, you claim to be "indulgent" of the Christians in your highly visible community, but inwardly seethe with hatred and justify what goes on in Orissa?

Truthfully, I have no hatred for the individual Hindus, Muslims, or Buddists. The lie and terrible harm that all the "religions" of these beleivers buy into, is what I most terribly hate. Now, of course, in light of the terrible things these peoples do to loving Christians and those Christians concern for they themselves, yes, that does sometimes challenge my ability to reign in my own anger and sadness. God never promised to make me perfect. He only demands that I spend my life working diligently to aim that direction. He expects very real results, too, and helps me to do so. Atrocities by Christians are almost non-existent. The Muslims have tried to claim otherwise, but I think we are both aware of what Islam claims all around for all of us. The Quran teaches the permissable practice of lie and signing treaties they have no intention of honoring.

"I quote a line from our Bhagwad geeta, quoted by lord Krishna - Do a good deed without expecting anything !!!.You say if we are helping them stand on thier feet, provide them with food, shelter, then whats wrong if we also introduce christianity?? Isn't it somehow diminishing the effects of the good deed??"

If they both do the "good deed" how will that diminish anything of the combined "goodness" of the deeds?? The only thing that "diminshes" would be the total picture of the deed. I'm talking about ongoing concern for peoples' needs on a daily basis as Christ taught us. He teaches getting right into the dirt, muck, and mire of peoples' needs and living conditions to help them. Some think they can write a check and mumble a few quick prayers that don't have any heart behind them. God will throw this at people who "claim" to be Christians at the end. Good deeds buy nothing.

The One God requires heart felt concern and involvement with those who suffer. It isn't about bragging rights as the Muslims do about their numbers who practice every kind of horror against all the rest of us. It is about HEART. I don't have much respect for those who claim to be Christians and display otherwise. They won't find a place in the after life of paradise despite their hollow, cultural, or fashionable beliefs of convenience or anything else. They're in for one big whopping surprise at judgement.

"In one of your blogs you mentioned Hindus as cowards,. We have been called cowards for thousands of years!!! If bieng a survivalist is called a coward, then i dont mind bieng called a coward. We survived 750 years of islamic onslaught, 300 hundred years of british rule, yet we are majority hindus, and you call us cowards!!"

Actually, the behavior and outward exhibition of it is "cowardice" is what I was alluding to. If I gave the wrong impression, I'm sorry, but what else would you call the rape, looting, burning, and torture of helpless Christian victims? What would you call hiding within the safe enclaves of one's own culture and communties without actively being concerned about the rest of humanity? Jesus never failed to point out hypocrisy, failure, or wrong wherever it existed. He didn't pretend nothing bad was going on, but told the religious leaders of the day right to their faces under a minority of one - himself - exactly who they were - liars hypocrites, outright thieves, and unconcerned about the people they were supposed to be teaching and helping. He escaped from Jerusalem with his apostles to show that he had the power and ability to do so after the Pharisees and teachers of the law started planning to kill him. He then resolutely headed right back into the lion's den to pay the terrible price he was determinded to pay for all the failures and "guilt" of all sin for those who loved him and his teachings and asked Him for forgiveness.

"Please read the full story bfore you make comments. I know what ails my country and yes orrissa and kandhamal will be a blot on the face of secular india for years to come!!! We will eliminate the rotten eggs amongst us eventually!!!"

I have read the full story of not only Orissa, but the horrors going on all over the country against Christians. That describes the majority of the Indian citizenry. It also, tells me of the absolute lie of those who are in control - the government, the police, the military, and the majority of the Hindus.

Know this; I admire tremendously your desire to eradicate and change what is going on. You have to take note yourself, that I never brag about about almost anything of my own country or fellow countrymen. My country, as one of the richest and most powerful on earth has sold out to the God who shaped it from its roots. My coutrymen suffered under Britsih rule, also. That as never been in contention. On the other hand, there are a power lot of American atheists who even help on the wordl stage. It speaks to the dying embers of the belief in a God that so richly blessed the godly men who started the U.S. They are oblivious to the entirety of Christ's teachings and commands, but they don't go about in mass numbers doing whatever rage and hate leads them to do. That has never been in contention. It has never been hidden by our book (Bible) either.

God always shapes his people up after many decades ( through prophets) of warnings and explicitly pointing out their wrong. When they ignore him, they get exactly what God promises them - terrible retribution. He then tirelessly remolds them. The U.S. is only beginning to pay for the desecration of God's Word, its self-indulgence, and absolute evils of pornagrapghy, abortion, and inifference to those all over the world who suffer and die. I don't claim any kin-ship to those who buy into superficial Christainity. I try to help them see their slide into sin. God will punish all who deserve it. I don't push "allegiance" to my nation anymore, either.

"We all have a common enemy that is fundamentalism!!! it can be Christian Fundamentalists , hindu radicals or Islamic Jehadis.. Lets deal with the worst for now and i am sure we are capabable enough to put our own houses in order"

I have no confidence in those who want peace in this world being able to counter the forces of evil. Our God speaks of that source of evil many times under his many aliases - Satan, devil, father of all lies, etc. He is very powerful to the extent he has helped strenuously to promote false gods from the beginning of mankind. The extent of evil now in our world has passed the "rewind" or "undo" point. India's enemy, Pakistan is a nuclear power and harbors the roots of the most evil of the Islamic radicals. Radical Islam has infested the entire planet and plays by no rules whatsoever. That can't be fought except by God alone. He has prophesied throughout the Bible of these times. Islam is the "popular" religion because it allows repressed peoples everywhere to express the inevitable frustrations, helplessness, poverty, and death they suffer from the governments and religions that keep them there.

I claim, again no bragging rights for myself or my country. When I see a lie, I call it out whether on the part of any religion or country, or religion. I do care for my mankind. I care for you & wish you could see that God loves any human from anywhere and any belief who fesses up to the Christ's teachings, and their belief in His forgiveness. He doesn't care to keep it carefully guarded within tight little religious communities. He wants all mankind to benefit from what he has paid the biggest price for - our sin.

"Warm regards,"

And, I truly wish you the warmest regards.

Submitting....

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Mark my comment as a response to "Proud Indian", your comment is full of holes by kman

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Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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