what do you call it when people can't admit they are wrong?
Submitted by the Grand Infidel of Kaffiristan (Australia), Dec 29, 2008 at 23:25
Mr. bayezid, frantic in his efforts to insist he can't be wrong writes:
"is the grand infidel using an intellectual force field to deflect my points, or does it have to do with the natural disposition of an infidel ?"
Your point is not clear. Do you mean that 'infidels' use logic and reason against fantasy and Muslim requests for suspension of disbelief ? (or more accurately, suspension of belief in rationality?)
GI wrote originally:
The original claim by Mr.Bayezid was that Muslims were the first to realise that the sun had a regular path around the 'heavens'. I pointed out the fact that this was well known to ancient peoples. I used 2 examples which are located in Europe - NewGrange in Ireland and Stonehenge in England. There are many more - and these continue to be discovered - with some notable but much smaller structures being found in Eastern Europe recently. Many other civilizations had detailed astronomical knowledge - the non-Islamic Egypt and China being other good examples. Hipparchus in the 1st century BC noted the precession of the equinoxes - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_of_precession ."
Bayezid twists this to say "he (GI) keeps on arguing that primitive calendars made of wood and stone had the ability to determine the movement of the entire solar system (the sun moving with all its planets around a ifxed orbit). "
That is not at all what I said . I explained that the builders of Stonehenge used it as both a lunar calendar and to determine the oprbit of the year when the sun is at its winter solstice - which was an important point for people living in harsh European winters as it signiifed the return of warmth and light - and therefore food. At no time did I indicate that Stonehenge was designed to indicate the extremely slow orbit of the Sun around the galactic centre in the Sagittarius constellation. You have misrepresented what I said - and are creating arguments against that.
A 'red herring' again.
"......if the infidel had only but been more informed of those devices, he should have known that they did not have the ability to do that."
" ....they merely set a course of the suns rising and setting. the movement the stonehenge meant was that of from our perspective here on earth. it was not talking about the solar apex. the solar apex had been discovered between the 19th and 20th century. much to the dismay of many like minded infidels, sicce it reinforced the claims of the quran."
But surprisingly, given the great clues in the Koran, and the wonderfully clear desert skies the arab scientists never discovered the Sun's slow rotation around the galactic centre in the 1400 years before the discovery by Infidels of fact that the sun is in orbit around the rim of the Milky Way.
"the scientists claim that so far only 25 solar apexes have been assumed with modern tools of science. "
"in order for the druids with wood and stone to detect it it would require tem to live for millions of years !!! a rather foolhardy claim for them therefore."
".......besids, if the entire solar system moves, dosent it mean the earth moves too?
Let me see - some Set theory - now the earth is a part of the solar system, the solar system moves - then does the earth. move? It's insulting to yourself, a learned Muslim, to consider that your audience is not at least as intelligent as yourself. People will just be reinforcing their opinions about the blindness and arrogance that supremacist belief system engenders in its adherents.
"the best the druids did was detect the suns moement through the sonstellations. but this is scientifically proven as illusory since its the earth thats moving, and not the sun. the druids were talking bout that movement.",
That's stating the obvious. But what does it actually say - that leads you to believe that it was actually talking about the sun's revolution around the galactic centre? Could you quote the exact passage please?
"....so according to the infidel, 1400 years ago it was common knowledge of the suns movement along the solar apex ? "
"....he is more deluded than it seems. he keeps on confusing of the illusory movement of the sun through the constellations with the actual revolution of the sun with all its planets with it."
As explained - that is not what I said at all. Your own childish desire of wanting to prove an 'infidel' wrong and continually stating something that was not said keeps you from seeing this
i will gladly present ayahs from the quran regarding its claim of the suns movement.
"It is He Who created night and day and the sun and moon, each one swimming in a sphere. (Qur'an, 21:33)"
"And the sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. (Qur'an, 36:38)"
"these ayahs clearly show the movement of the sun. the originl arabic language further elucidates this matter as one reads these verses from the noble quran."
Remember my prediction above - "I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the unknown passage is probably ambiguous and may be open to several interpretations."
" subjected the sun and the moon, both diligently pursuing their courses. And for you He subjected the night and the day."
"the sun runs to its resting place. " ??
GI wrote initially :
"....no matter how insightful ALLAH may have made the kafir's ancestors (which is doubtful, however) they were human beings. "
"......and i believe ALLAH kept this 'common' knowledge for the descendants of the druids to later discover and be awed. lol ."
"by his dissatisfaction the kafir seems to have been blinded to the truth in the quran.Little does he realize that it was lucid enough for everyone to understand. "
."........and little does he realize tht if ALLAH indeed used words like solar apex and trajectory of the sun, the people would be more confused than enlightened."
" im sure the infidel knew that such terms were not heard of back in those days."
" .............i leave the rest for him to consider. if he does leave tie for himself to contemplate on things, that is."
GI wrote originally :
"Pure myth and wishful thinking on the part of an Islamist who believes and would like others to believe islam is responsible for all the great advances in the world. Spain had its renaiisance only AFTER it had kicked out the invading Islamists. If anybody is to be thanked - it s the Irish priests and monks who preserved previous knowledge in the arts and sciences, mostly written in Latin in their remote castles and monasteries."
".............after spain kicked out islam using the muslims own strength that is, it sank back into a lesser version of what spain was under islamic rule. fact !! "it must be quite embarassing for the infidel to realise that he had never heard of the university of cordoba,"
"if they did, how, oh how, could they know that the sun moved along a set path discovered only recently? a fact discovered in the last century. the infidel becomes boggled by his own wordplay "
GI wrote originally:
"Again - you need to provide proof of this statement that is clear and unequivocal. A verse that just says that the sun travels across the heavens does not constitute proof."
Mr. bayezid replies:
"i do believe the kafir is seeking assurance from the quran here."
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