Submitted by the Grand Infidel of Kaffiristan (Australia), Jan 3, 2009 at 02:33
Mr Bayezid replies:
".....but ALLAH already declared it 1400 years ago. "
"its a question of having faith. apparently i do. you dont. although the message is clear and staring in your face."
I do not have faith in your concepts
" i was only trying to calm you down, but whatever."
I was calm and remain calm
"....and as for peace, i wonder how someone can be at peace knowing god but then not obeying him. isnt that deluding the self ? i suppose some people find this situation peaceful. perhaps its because they do not know god ."
The Self cannot be deluded. One's mind can be deluded. You don't 'obey' peace - you experience it. You act consciously from an awareness of peace.
>> GI wrote:
"....well ALLAH holds these sites in special importance for HIS slaves. those sites are muslim only zones to keep a fully islamic god fearing environment around them. this means maintaining a culture around those places not considered unlawful by god."
In Europe , they would hold that God is a little more generous and allows those shrines to be visited by people who were created free and whose essential true nature is freedom itself.
"....again, its better to judge islam based on what ALLAH says than what people say. since the quran is HIS word.......... so if saudis dont do what they shouild be doing, its a case of following a bad example. religion hardly deserves the blame."
"........we all know about israel. ... so when you consider these, you begin to at least consider the side of the iranian president, if not suport him ."
Ahemedinijab (sp?) has wormed his way up through the ranks of their revolutionary guard and says and does things which support the aims and ideals of the people behind the Islamic republic of Iran.
"......if you still say that there was no reason for him saying that aftre the israelis actually did that, then you certainly have an axe to grind."
Did the Israelis say they should wipe Iran off the map? Has Israel ever done any harm to Iran - other than a bombing raid in the 80's that set back Iran's ambitions to produce a nuclear weapon?
"haha hamas. nice little decoy the israelis have set up. muslims, and palestinian muslis have niothing to do with hamas."
Other than in their democratic elections to vote out the incumbent moderate Fatah and vote in Hamas .
"..... the palestinians arent daft enuff not to realize that suicide bombings will nly dwindle their demographics even more. and need i mention tht this is not the way a muslim is commanded to fight."
Then Hamas is a problem for the Palestinans.
"......and i wouldnt be all that insolent in idnetifying a countys population with a renegade terrorist org that says operates from the country. just as i cant call all lankans members of ltte. "
Hamas, up until Israel's recent actions, were the ones controlling the GazaStrip. They were policing it and also the ones sending the rockets into nearby Israel. Hamas was well armed and willing and able to carry out attacks on Israel. They did. Naturally enough the Israeli military struck back - this time to a degree that Hamas were not expecting. Not all Palestinians support Hamas - but enough did to get them over the line in their last elections.
He was talking about not just a war crime but a crime against the UN Charter. Yes, he was completely wrong. As expected - in your contrived hatred against a people who have never done you or any other BanglaDeshis harm - ` you cannot see that. You almost have to hate Jews don't you? I mean what sort of Muslim would you be if you didn't? Who could you blame all the Muslim world's troubles on otherwise? I do not hate jews, I do not hate anybody. I don't need to. Hatred is an emotional burden and like jealousy - eats its own heart."
"....... so let me get this straight. if i invade your country and drive you away from it, i can easily make a case of unused land somewhere for you to move to?"
It would be beyond difficult for you or indeed Bangladesh to do that - but hypothetically speaking - if Bangladesh could prove some historical connection to occupation of Australia in the last few thousand years - I'm sure some concessions could be made. We've done just this for the Aboriginals.
"the palestinians had land. their land.it was taken from them. with force."
"........................the same way you feel attached to the vast desert wasteland in australia,"
".... the palestinians have a bond with their land. fertility or barrenness is not the issue."
Attachment to land is not a genetic thing. It is an emotional thing inculcated into the minds of the
".....so ? and why do you think a people that earned the wrath of ALLAH deserves any love from HIS slaves?"
Slavery is a very outdated concept - at least in the West and several other countries.
".....what you dont read the bible? the torah or the talmud? the jews werent exactly upstanding citizens. how is it peaceful for someone when that person loves something GOD hates. "
".....it is not a hate that ALLAH tells us to utilize to kill. this is simply disapporioval that ALLAH speaks. muslims arent allowed to kill jews just cuz they are jews. lets get that straight."
Good - but many of the more devoted Muslims would disagree. If they had access to a magic button that could remove all Jews from the world - many, many Muslims would press that button.
".......robots are the parody of living sentients. and all sentients, be it a lowly animal or a complex human, are creatures of program."
Robots are just tools - not a parody of anything. They are tools designed to do work - in fact the word means 'work' in Russian and Czech. The primary distinction between a sentient being and anything else is Life itself. And after a certain level of complexity - consciousness.
".... the man's program may be more complex than that of a simple animals but it is program nonetheless. we are all creatures that are conditioned."
Conditioned consciousness is not free awareness - and does not give you the ability to see things as they actually are - or more acurately - as close to their real nature as they really are. Conditioned consciousness is a kind of dream. Real direction is toward more 'awareness' for want of a better term.
So what you are inferring is that anyone who does not believe what you believe has their 'hearts and minds' sealed up?
Some things by definition cannot come into existence. Common examples - an irresistible force meeting an immovable object.
".......with all due respect, you do not know what is metaphorical and literal in the quran."
Not hard to see why is it?
"........i think what you meant for me was a radical. although i am not one and ALLAH condemns radicals too."
Good to hear. The problem is radicals would say you are wrong and that 'Allah' has given them free reign to do what they consider at the time to be 'Allah's' will. How do you stop that? Do you try to stop that - or consider that in some way - it is OK for them to do that - because they are sincere?
The Prophet (saaw) reportedly said,"Beware of excessiveness in religion before you have perished as a result of such excessiveness in religion." (Reported by Ahmad)
as the proverb goes: - " he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword'.
"...............couldve fooled me."
Why do you feel fooled? Because I do not agree with everything you believe in? It's just common sense -
"......then that person would hardly be a kafir. and we wouldnt have this conversation otherwise. muslims are aware that GOD alone originates possibilities and if HE intended some kafir to have the paradoxical quality of a believer "
"...........the man would consider it a possibility. again, it is something the likes of we have never seen or experienced. so it is always unwise for us to choose a polarity with certainty. mabe a rabbit like creature can exist in pink or red or blue, how do you kow? how does anyone know? if you think rabbit like creatures can exist only on earth then it is a shortcoming. just because it dosent seem logical to him dosent mean it is not possible. it just does not conform to his logical premise."
Exactly - so although being highly unlikely - it is possible.
".....does not matter. it still woldnt give him the ability to say for certain that the laws that apply to your world or consciousness are absolute . you know nothing beyond your own laws of nature."
Not having seen a normal rabbit would make it harder for him to conceive of the giantic pink rabbit.
" ......so it is not wise for you to determine conditions outside it that may give rise to things that occur only in the wildest imaginations."
it is quite OK to use the imagination to conjecture what may lie outside the known and observed circumstances.
That's OK, just making sure we both understand what we agree on is a definition of logic.
"..........facts in question can be multifaceted. theres more than meets the eye. we use logic based on what little we know of things around us. there was a time people thought trees werent living. later they found it was. they thought trees are not stimulated by outside actions. they were wrong now they say trees display anxiety, joy and even sorrow. as time passes, the more we become aware of how less we know. so to say that it int logical for a tree to be happy since its not a possess a brain like us mammals, itll be wrong. the same way it will be wrong if i say dead on, no pink rabbits with psychic abilities dont xist on the moon. its just that it does not seem plausible to me. to me. dosent mean it is totally outside the pale of any possibility. to my smll mind so enamored by the earthly terrestrial logic, it seems imposible."
As Donald Rumsfeld so succinctly put it:
"...... because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know.
".......then i dont believe there are too many skeptics nowadys. why is a peron a skeptic? why does a person not believe? because he cannot think of going outside his own logicl premises. a believer says ok i havent seen a demon before, but i believe it exists, judging by the nature of things, anything and everything is possible. a skeptic woould say i havent seen demons and i dont believe in any ither. y not? because it does not ocur to him? just because of that. so he has absolute faith in the static nature of his understanding.rather partial about the truth, isnt he?"
That person is not a true sceptic. A true sceptic is willing to consider other possibilities. What you are describing is someone who will not consider other possibilities. That is just somebody with a closed mind. But equally , a person can believe things which bear no relation to what is actually true.
"......i agree, however it is not all that it is. how much of facts do we know?"
Only the previously known ones of course. We are limted by what we know already and the sensitivity of the instruments we have at our disposal.
OK, we disagree on this crucial point. I say that 'God', or Supreme Intelligence or whatever label you give to it is continuously interacting with what we call 'reality'. There have been many 'prophets' and there always will be. In a sense, we are all 'prophets'."
"......we have no problem with that notion that ALLAH interacts with people. but we also believe there are different levels of interaction. since HE is GOD, it is upto HIM to decide what level of interaction to have with whomever. just because you feel youve been guided by god in a way dosent mean that is it. "
And it doesn't mean it is not although I am not claiming any special circumstance.Lunatics in asylums claim 'God' is talking to them too. We give the label 'God' to what ultimately for us is an experiential thing. If someone tells me about a piece of fruit that I've never heard of before -say a pineapple. I read about pineapples and find out everything about them. I find people really like them.
"......all is possibe for him, he can talk to someone or sing to somene if he likes. that where prophets come in. best among people. people with extremely lofty caracters that even rare would call rare. ALLAH spke to prophets and guided them in special ways ."
people are growing in their understanding of everything - but forget their own connection with their real selves.
"..............absolutely right. perhaps the only place i agree with you so wholeheartedly.
This is one of THE biggest problem for Muslim. What to do about people dressing up as religious figures and spouting what they think is correct - when it is not. Thereby influencing others to act incorrectly. What to do about that?
".............i must say your muslim friend dosent know much. chances are he isnt even a good muslim.
He is actually quite a nice guy. He's seen enough of the West to realise it is not the great place of 'Satan' that it is made out to be in the Islamic world.
".....our governemnt is based on our faith. if someone is not ok with it within the state, tough. but his place is ensured within the state of islam. thats the way it is. islam accounts for all the minorities living inside its borders and observes equal rights for them as well as the muslims. fact. so there really isnt much to worry about. minorities propered under slamic rule in the past."
Good. Our government is not based on faith. Like 'Allah' - we leave that up to the individual. If someone is not OK with it - they are perfectly free to leave.
"....and as for the revelation. ALLAH says that the truth has been sperated from falsehood. in the quran. it is clear. quran dosent say anything strange or new that prior mesages havent proclaimed bit by bit in the past. they have to prove that the quran is wrong. they have to compare their books with this one.
Any book should point to the inner truth. The Koran is just one book among many. It is not particularly clear about stressing the need for the individual to find enlightenment - or where to find it. It's all very well describing the wonders of external universe - but there is little to no focus on self-realisation. Christ says continually things like 'seek ye first the Kingdom of heaven (within) and all these things will be added unto you'. Socrates says 'Know thyself' ,Buddha says to meditate on the Self..
".....your powder boxes and the companies making them are in constant competition. the revealed books arent. where one powder company is trying to outdo the other, the books from god are merely adding and modifying the last one. so if you look at religious scriptures as powder boxes, then the manufacturer here is not many, just one. GOD. no cmpetition. only compilation."
OK then - in that analogy - same powder - different packages. The different packaging companies might not even realise its the same powder - they're just concerned with getting their boxes out to as many customers as they can. BUt the important thin is - to open the box and actually use the powder.
>> I see your point but it's a fictitious claim that Mohammed is mentioned in the Bible as you seem to be saying. You would like to think that - but it is not true. Neither is Mohammed mentioned in the Upanishads or Gita or any Buddhist scripture."
muhammad's pbuh reference in bible -
"AND THE BOOK IS DELIVERED TO HIM THAT IS NOT LEARNED, SAYING, READ THIS I PRAY THEE: AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT LEARNED." (Isaiah 29:12).
I can he was say talking about Isaiah himself - or the writers of Proverbs
'AND I WILL PUT MY WORDS IN HIS MOUTH.'(Deut. 18:18).
When you use the phrase 'don't put words in my mouth' - you literally don't mean to put 'words' in someone's mouth do you?
jesus said, "Therefore, say I unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruit thereof" (Matthew 21:43
Christian Israelites would say he's talking about the Anglo-Saxon peoples. It makes more sense when you look at the world and who actually took on and promoted Christianity. So it's not a particularly good one to pick out in an attempt to explain how Mohammed was referred to in the Bible.
"And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken, but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder" (Matthew 21:44)."
Not sure what you're trying to promote here. The idea that whoever falls on Islam shall end up being a broken person. That's not really in keeping with your idea of tryin to promote Islam is it?
muhammad peace be upon him in hindu scriptures, purana, prati swarg parv 3 from the works of dr. vidyarth: verses 5-27
" a maleccha (foreigner) spiritual teacher will appear with his companions. his name will be Mahamad. Raja bhoj after giving this Mahadev Arab(of angelic disposition) a bath in the panchgavya and the ganges water...........
I know 'Maha' means 'great' in Hindi. What does 'Mad' mean - hopefully not what it means in English.
Buddhists have prophecies speaking of Maitreya Buddha - who will appear and unite all mankind with the true teaching.
"........if inner truth is indeed what its cracked up to be, it has to be confirmed. "
"....... . if you have realized god"
".... then god will say 'yes, thats it, glad tidings to you.' he will put us at ease. "
One of Christ's followers called it 'the peace that surpasses all understanding."
".........right, and i keep saying that GOD is not GOD if there is a where, when and how involved. hes beyond it. yes ALLAH tells us he governs from the his throne he created just to give us a direction, but HIS essence can never be understood. thats why HE is called god. thats y there is no sense in worshipping a finite thing. thats y idolatry is punished by him."
I have no idea what 'Allah' tells you - but certainly that essence is inside you. It is Life itself. The 'throne' is inside you and not what you think it is.
"....i agree. once truth is realized. but another thing you have to realie about truth is truth also intended for you to be flawed. ecause the truth wants to test you. the truth isnt some force that yoda was talking about. the truth is conscious and has designs for you. "
Consciousness is by definition conscious. No it's not an unconscious force at all. It is to be connected with.
".....so by the will of the truth, you are never outside of comitting a crime. until the after life is reached, that is. so no matter how saintly you may be, you will always have impulses to do bad time to time. you will feel weak to crimes like infidelity, stealing, even murder. realizing the truth is more of a day to day duty."
It's not by the will of the truth. The more you realize, the more you realize that unconscious aspects of your makeup keep you from experiencing life properly. So you do not do them. Uncosnciousness leads to self harm. Once you've woken up - you stay awake.
".....how can you say it isnt beautiful. it has to have a certain curious quality about it. i mean i know not most will live to tell his experiences lol but still. thi beauty here is the awe. beauty is in every molecule, in every moment. its just a matter of waking up to it."
Actually you were the one who suggested that everything isn't beautiful. Looked at deeply enough - everything can be beautiful, depending on where you see it from. I mean, you could say that even the A-bomb that vapourised Hirsoshima had a certain beauty about it. The people involved in the conflagration ,had you been able to ask them, wouldn't have seen it in the same light.
".... isnt that why muslims follow dogma? dogma does have its purpose. "
Maybe they don't know any better. Having rules and regulations leads to the trap that following those rules
If I have a car - and really need to travel - I can learn all the rules - but if there is no gasoline in the car
"....its the royal we. kings say it. princes say it and queens say it. or used to anyways. this is the problem of transating the arabic in english. ALLAH is referred by HIMSELF in a grand manner. it wasnt exactly a plural we per se in arabic. this is like saying his majesty and eminence or his exquisiteness or gallantry sir this and that."
Self-praise is a human thing.
Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".
Reader comments (888) on this item
Comment on this item
You can help support Daniel Pipes' work by making a tax-deductible donation to the Middle East Forum. Daniel J. Pipes