bayezid: Look up the meaning of logic before using the word
Submitted by Plato (India), Dec 23, 2008 at 11:31
bayezid, you wrote:
>>so what is the hindu way of life based on?<<
It is based on acceptance of diverse world views unlike Islam with its blinkered monotheistic, moncultural view which includes hatred of all worship other than of a phantom called Allah.
>> islam is the way of life based on submitting oneself to the CREATOR. GOD, plain and simple. and to do that we follow what HE revealed.<<
Your statement encapsulates Islam in a nutshell. It is a religion of submission of your mind and will to something or someone you call a CREATOR, GOD OR ALLAH. What reason did you have for this submission? Can I state it for you?
You read in a book (Koran) that its contents were revealed to an illiterate prophet (Muhammad) by a creature (an angel) who said they were the words of another creature (Allah, God) and these words were in turn communicated by the prophet to the largely illiterate people around him. These communications were written on bits and pieces of whatever was lying around or remained in the memories of some who listened to him. They were later gathered together into a book (Koran). How have I done so far?
There were many different ways to recite this book giving varying meanings to it because the Arabic language had not yet developed a proper script. When the script was modernized a generation or two later the book was rewritten with the new-fangled script to give you what you think is the very word of Allah. Is my conclusion correct?
I hope you can now see that only a person or persons who are mentally weak will SUBMIT themselves to belief in such a book. There is further proof in the Koran itself that it requires mentally weak persons to willingly submit to anything it says:
005.101-102 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those…… Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.
Muhammad had Allah (i.e. himself) reveal these verses so that he did not have to face uncomfortable questions from people about some of his weird revelations like his flying off to heaven or his poorly plagiarized stories from the bible. These verses exist so that Muhammad did not have to face trouble from his listeners' questions and not as the verse says so that they would be in trouble.
Muslims have been banned from asking questions about the Koran on pain of losing their faith. The Koran wants to shut down Muslims' questioning mind for otherwise they would surely question Allah's ordinance about women being worth only half a man in inheritance and in courts of law. Muslims are unable to question Allah for allowing Muhammad to marry his own daughter in law by ‘revealing' a verse allowing it. Muslims would want to know why Allah did not ban slavery outright when he banned such silly things as alcohol and usury.
Muslims may also wonder how come Allah does not know that sperm does not come from anywhere near the backbone or that mountains are not pegs to keep the earth from shaking. Also they might want to know why Allah's cosmology is all cockeyed despite His claim to have created the universe. He claims in some places He made the universe in 6 days (57:4, 10:3, 11:7 etc) and in another place that it took Him eight days (41:9-12). The Koran tells us that the moon is above the stars (71:16), and that stars can fall (81:2).
>>… and what he revealed says this is the culmination of all his revelations. <<
And what is your proof for this offhand statement of yours? The Koran says so? Can you see the fallacy in this? One of the reasons Muslims are so backward compared to other people is probably because they are incapable of seeing the fallacy in this claim for the Koran being the last revelation.
>>what you dont understand is all the other faiths before islam were meant for specific groups of people. people in different places.<<
If so why then does Allah say that the Koran is meant to warn the mother of cities (Mecca) and why does it say that messengers are sent only in the language of the messenger so that he can make himself understood to his listeners:
006.092 YUSUFALI: And this is a Book which We have sent down, bringing blessings, and confirming (the revelations) which came before it: that thou mayest warn the mother of cities and all around her. …..
014.004 YUSUFALI: We sent not a messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom.
>> ALLAH revealed those but here ALLAH decides to unify all people, black red blue yellow under one faith.<<
What kept Allah from unifying all people in the first place? Why the sudden interest in unifying people after keeping them divided for thousands of years?
>>islam is meant for all people it is global. it has nothing to do with local cultures. so its being up to date.<<
The two verses I have quoted above, 6:92 and 14:4 tell you very clearly that Islam is only for the Arabs around the city of Mecca. Islam has everything to do with local cultures. The yearly haj is a very local cultural practice. The way Mulims greet each other is a local Arab practice.
In 14:4 Allah says He sends messengers only in the language of his people so that the message is clearly understood. That is why Islam is not meant for a Bengali like you. You had your own prophets and teachers in the Vedic and Upanishadic seers and rishis. It seems Allah has chosen to leave you straying away from the guidance Allah had sent your people.
>> if i value what ALLAH says i have to see what he said in the latest, dont i.
LOL. So Allah has to keep revising his ‘eternal truths'. What He said in the days before Islam are so much rubbish you want to discard them. There are other books that have appeared after Islam, why don't you check them out see what are the latest messages from Allah.
>>according to you, hinduism welcomes all faiths. so what is the faith of hinduism itself.<<
Hinduism is an amalgamation of not just faiths but cultures, both indigenous and imported. It can co-exist with other faiths and cultures. Recall that Christians arrived in India even before Europe. The persecuted jews and Zoarastrians found a welcoming home among the Hindus.
Hinduism is so different from the monocultural Islam which abhors all other faiths and cultures except the one that existed during the time of the prophet and his immediate successors. If Islam only abhorred other faiths it would have been a tolerable religion but it goes beyond that and calls for the annihilation of all other belief systems:
In the notorious 9:29 he tells Muslims to fight the unbelievers until they submit. In 9:111 Allah makes a binding promise of paradise if Muslims kill or are killed in his cause.
>> all faiths are intact in themselves and go a certain way. we dont dictate the scriptures. does the veda say it is here for all time?<<
What if the Vedas do not make any such claim? You are trying to say that because the Koran claims to be for all time it is a true claim. Where is your proof for your claim? A statement in a book, any book, does not necessarily make it true unless it can be proven so.
>> does it not order the indus people to wait for further instructions? if it does, what are u still doing clinging to it?<<
You claim the Vedas ask its believers to wait for further instructions. Where did you find this claim? Then you claim that it does, and ask why they are clinging to the old instructions. For your information many did turn away from some of the teachings and took instructions from the Buddha and Mahavira of their own free will. You are trying to lead the reader into thinking that the Koran is the instructions that the Vedas were referring to. Some did turn to Islam but mostly under threat of force by Muslims following the Koranic instructions in 9:29, 9:33 and 9:111.
>>and does your veda not say that god is only one? and worship belongs to him alone? its quite similar to what muslims believe.<<
Any body who tells you that Vedic philosophy is anything like what Muslims believe ought to have his head examined. I am not a Vedic scholar but I can guarantee you that it does not contain any verses like 9:29, 9:33 or 9:111. The Vedas and the Koran are as different as chalk and cheese.
>> in essence, muslims are better vedantists than hindus themselves because we have the essence of those scriptures.<<
The essence that is the Koran, has inane surahs like 111, The palm Fibre. And it has nearly 400 verses out of 6246 that describe the torment the merciful allah has reserved for people who do not believe in Him. More than 6% of the Koran is devoted to describing the punishment the merciful Allah has in store for unbelievers. To prove you point I urge you to show your readers that these essences are also there in Hindu, Buddhist or other religions of the Indian subcontinent.
>>worship none but god. does the veda not say that when you worship created objects you stray, and when you worship objects created by the ccreation (tables, chairs, idols) you stra even more?so if u decide to make a way of life based on your wishful thinking alone, its your problem.<<
Beyazid, your entire post is a demonstration of wishful thinking and you now project this onto others. You never have a shred of proof for your statements. Grand Infidel of Kaffiristan has shown you that you merely make grand statements without even a passing attempt to prove them. Your statement above is another demonstration of a poverty of evidence and ideas in all that you say.
>>muslims believe in taking orders only fom god himself.<<
This god Himself ordered you to circumambulate a lifeless piece of rock. He also told you to run between Marwa and Safa as He says they are his symbols. Muslims are as good idol-worshippers as any Hindu.
Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".
Reader comments (888) on this item
Comment on this item
You can help support Daniel Pipes' work by making a tax-deductible donation to the Middle East Forum. Daniel J. Pipes