Caught in the cross fire ... A glimpse from Moslem hell , Michel ?
Submitted by Ianus (Poland), Mar 2, 2007 at 20:19
Dear Michel, you wrote :
> I do not know, to what extent you have followed the "debate" with Dhimmi, Susan or Noah, but it got rather nasty.
Well, Islamism is such a taintedsubject. I try to perform all the necessary ablutions every time I deal with it but still its nastiness remains. ( My personal experience )
> I only saw one ( very well written) response of yours to Plato about the Ottoman Empire. Nothing I could possibly disagree with, as you certainly know your history.
Thanks. I try to do my best. But still I know my defects and weak sides too well.
> As far as I am concerned, I am not Muslim, but a Swiss/US Citizen of Jewish origin.
Nice to hear that. I come from a country that was once the home of most Jews (Poland).
> I am neither a Muslim lover nor Christian hater.
I presume that as a Jew you must or should be be doubly critical of both.
> I am quite actually a republican adopting democratic stands on several issues.
Whatever you mean , I hope that the subject matter or essence of any issue is your overriding consideration. I mean thereby that truth and democracy are a little different notions.
> I tried to have a pragmatic discussion, but ended up attaked on a personal level. Supporting evidence for my admittedly moderate stands was dismissed or not even reacted to.
To tell you the truth I read your covert defence of Islam's innocence (="moderate Islam") as quite unconvincing.
> Exactly because I have experienced my own father waking up with nightmares 40 years after the concentration camps, do I sttrongly oppose similar approaches to Muslims (with specific focus on US domestic Muslims).
Well , I wonder how traditional rabid Islamic anstisemtism as based in the Quran and in the misdeeds of its inventor fits in your "democratic stand on this issue" ? You're well aware of the hard facts of Islamic history after all, aren't you ?
> Their language, depicting all Muslims wihtout exceptions as depraved, evil, fanatic and subversive goes way too far for my taste.
Does it ? What does it mean to be a Muslim for you , Michel ? For me it means accepting the Quran as the book authored by Allah , the impeccability of its last prophet as a paragon of all virtue and Islam as the supreme good. If you agree with this definition , then I can't understand why you disagree with Noah Wilk , dhimmi no more , Susan and other sober contributors on this forum ? You can't be a Moslem and remain unstained by the poison and perversity of Islam. You can't bathe in a contaminated pond and get angry when point to the fact.
> Dhimmi himself confirmed that he would never honor any Muslim so ever with a constructive dialogue.
....Actually, I myself can't imagine a "constructive dialogue" with a Moslem. By "constructive" I mean "sincere". As long as you refrain from asking direct and right questions you can converse with your Moslem in a pleasant way ... on football, the weather or the growing number of pilgrims in Mecca ... Ask him "Why do you believe Allah has written the Quran ? After all it is totally illogical and contradictory beside being criminal. "... Then you'll see why it's impossible to talk sincerely ("constructively") to a Moslem.
> Noah intends to round them up, ban their religion and deport them. Nukes for the middle east.
No so bad idea , in my opinion. Let them taste some of the sixth hell they have prepared for us (For you too , Michel. Ask your moderate Moslems on the amenities and refinements of hell for all non-Moslems -kaffirs or what happens to a soul of a Moslem and of a non-Moslem after they die to see my point. If you want to learn some of these hilarious details take a look e.g. at :
> Susan? - That lady is completely consumed by hatred....gone.
Only "hatred" ? You remarked once she's filled up to the rim with facts though ? There is much more than only "hatred" as you imply. As a woman she feels instinctively (and absolutely correctly) what Islam really means to a woman. I wish all Western women realized as Susan does what Islam implies in terms of women's horryifying degradation. I wish all Western women understood that women are going to be the first and most suffering victims of this monstrous beast on the rise. In one of the posts a reader on the forum described some common Moslem mistreatments of women ( revitalized domestic slavery) in the time to come. It was a heartbreaking reading for me.
> Plato and I on the other side do believe in the existence of moderate muslims, even though they may well be a minority at present.
It's important that you used the verb "believe" here.
> We both try to assume an objective viewpoint, acknowledging our own culture;s shortcomings and history and then try to approach Islam with a bit of consideration for our own flaws.
Is it really an "objective" approach ? Do you imply that the Moslems proceed the same way ? There are no shortcomings in Islam - to the Moslem mind. The idea of defective Islam is a blasphemy punished with death and the seventh hell. Islam is ideal. Otherwise Allah wouldn't be ideal. Saying people can make mistakes doesn't help much as you have the right "guidance" (the Quran and the hadiths) to establish what is ideal and what is not.
You can't understand Islam by applying our Enlightenment mindset and methodology, dear Michel. Islam knows nothing of Enlightenment and despises it, as it despises as inferior all kaffiri cultures . Islam is a cultural singularity -if I may call it so. Objectivity here requires a different approach than what we are taught by our cultural relativism. A different methodology is dictated here by the singular subject-matter.
> Why is this so bad? Why labelling us as escapists? Just because we try to analyze the issue a bit deeper and call for more restraint and tailored approaches, so history may not be repeated?
A "great" Moslem "scholar" ibn Khaldun in his "al- Muqaddimah" has written that the past and the future resemble each other more than two drops of water. Look at the bloody and obscurantist Moslem past if you want to see what the Moslems (=all Moslems) want to impose on this world. Their deadly utopia will plunge this world into another stone age if one day they manage to overcome the forces of enlightment and freedom. And the Moslems do all their best to make this dismal nightmare a reality.
> Putting 1.5B Muslims globally into one single cliche drawer, then call for ban, deportation, eradication does sound like Goebbels, does it not?
Saying Moslems are not Moslems (i.e. trying to make them "moderate Moslems") sounds so unrealistic and so soothing (=escapist) to my ears.
We must be realistic.
> Is there really no difference between a Turkish Muslim and a Pakistani, a domestic converted black Muslim or an Algerian? The same radical approaches for all of them?
A kaffir is a kaffir to any Moslem, whether the Moslem is living in former Greek cities of what is now Turkey, or in former Indian towns and villages that are now Pakistan. There are more constant magnitudes in Islam than I or you'd like to admit. We have to face the hard and unpleasant evidence. Truth is rarely amusing and optimistic. The ancient Greeks knew it very well as their tragedies show.
What is now at stake is our fate and more than three thousand years of our civilization put at risk for a chimaera of some pseudo-multicultural utopia . This multiculturalism is a cunning misnomer for Moslem monocultural supremacy that is gaining ground in Europe. That we react to this perfidious game played by our Eurabian treacherous politicians violently is more than understandable and justified, Michel. Or perhaps you don't mind living a dhimmi in a third-world slums that once were called New York or Zurich ? What is more important for you -peace or liberty ?
> I really do not care what the ancient book (Quran) says.
This is one of your gravest and impardonable sins , Michel. If you cared you would avoid much misunderstanding and unpelasant comments by people I personally appreciate. The Quran is not just an ancient book. For every Moslem it is the book written personally by Allah. I am not sure if you grasp all the dire consequences of this fundemental fact for any issue on Islam. One of the consequences of this fact fact is e.g. that your "democratic stand" on it is simply incredible, not too say absurd. Allah is not a democratic semi-god. It's an absolute metaphysical tyrant and what he "says" is valid for all times and climes. No one has a right to disagree. You can't discuss with a maniac Oriental tyrant (Allah).
> I sure do care about the interpretation by the various shades and groups of Muslims.
I don't trust them personally. What counts is what is in the Quran. If you ignore the Quran you can't counter and refute all the abusrdities invented by the interpreters to mislead the gullible kaffirs.
> The ones who see Djihaad as free pass for terrorism - hell yes - lets oppose them by all means necessary .
Which Moslem can sincerely oppose jihad without abandoning Islam and the Quran and the clear evidence of the last "prophet" ? Show me a single one , I beseach yoou !
> The others who understand it as internal struggle towards bettering themselves - good for them. These are the ones we should embrace.
This "internal struggle towards betterment of onself" is indeed a fine concept! I wonder what is so wrong in onself the Moslems have to fight against so instensely ? Some last remorses and spontaneous human reactions that kaffirs' possensions should not be simply robbed and their blood shed as it was done by the gangster called Muhammad ibn Abdallah in the 20-ies of the 7th century. That perhaps all his 'prophecies' were hallucinations caused by disturbed narcisstic personality aggravated by constant exposure to solar overheating , accepted at their face value inspite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary ? ... In short "internal jihad" is just a necessary pre-stage to external jihad. First you have your brain terrorized because then and only then you can terrorize the kaffirs outside.
> I myself found much evidence for the existence of these latter Muslims. The reality here in the USA clearly shows that it is these people who make the majority.
Ask them the right questions and then draw your conclusions , Michel! I knew also one "moderate" Muslim here in Poland. After I asked him a few right questions his moderacy turned out to be so fragile and fake! But you can't ask right questions as long as you ignore the Quran (Allah's Magnum Opus) and disjoin the methodology of objectivity from its subject-matter.
> To call for ban and deportation is not only ridiculous, repeats the mistakes of our own past, it is also simply not feasible, current political, economic, ethical and moral frame conditions considered.
Given the corrupt Eurabian political elite it is really unlikely. The Eurabians must go with their Arab and Moslem electorate. But I'd like to give them a chance first to convert to some humanistic doctrine , e.g. Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism , hinduism , atheism or whatever except Islam before making them go to their Moslem paradises in the desterts of Africa and Asia.
> Having established that - so why not look for a more pragmatic, structured way to alleviate the wide-spread paranoia?
"Pragmatic" ? Wasn't it a fashionable term at the time some 50-40 years ago when Moslem masses were first imported into the West ?
> If that makes me an escapist, so be it.
I hope the above may serve as a sufficient comment on this sentence.
Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".
Reader comments (2098) on this item
Comment on this item
You can help support Daniel Pipes' work by making a tax-deductible donation to the Middle East Forum. Daniel J. Pipes