Missed a few comments from Michel - ooops!
Reader comment on item: How the West Could Lose
Submitted by Noah Wilk (United States), Feb 7, 2007 at 05:09
Michel, I missed the bottom half of your post. I was in a hurry earlier. Ok, here's what we missed.
" I further was self confident (courageous?) enough to offer ways to find me in reality and not hide behind the anonymity of the web. My name is real, My site even includes a map. Should you be in the area one day, I invite you to come see me and repeat your statements - looking into my face.
You obviously have a lot to learn about the realities of America. People can't handle the truth, and the are vindictive towards those who do speak the truth. I should not have to put myself or my family at risk in order to speak the truth, but that's America in 2007. There are a lot of insane people on the internet and I have had run-ins with a few in the past, which required me hurting them in self defense. So only a fool exposes his real name online in controversial discussions.
In person, I would be more than glad to debate you face to face.
""We do not need lowering ourselves down to entertaining banning and deportation. All we need is to repair our own broken system and the threat, as far as our direct own domestic minorites are concerned, would become irrelevant."
Completely untrue. As I pointed out before, you don't need a standing army to commit atrocities. Just a few dozen would suffice. As long as they remain among us and hate us, they are an enemy waiting any chance they get to destroy us. They simply cannot be tolerated at any level.
"Okay - 100000 hell bent fanatics. If that is true, where is the widespread unrest? Where are the suicide bombings? "
Michel, we have covered this ground many, many times already. There's a thing called "reading comprehension". Please work on it. I'll repeat myself for the fifth time (at least) in the hopes that this time you finally "get it". The Muslims are not committing atrocities in America because that would undermine their efforts. They're trying to (and in fact are succeeding in) making America look bad with the war in Iraq. If they start suicide bombings in America, the world opinion will turn against them and more countries would be willing to face them in Iraq. Right now, they're playing it quiet, letting our allies desert us, and massing their numbers in order to gain political power. It is an attack of subversion, a migratory attack. You need to learn to understand the Muslim Method of War. Read your history books already. You lose because you think in one dimension while the enemy is thinking on 6 dimensions at one time.
"All you listed was a small amount of participants in a rally in Arizona, some efforts to legislate burkas and special treatment, isolated incidents of Muslims condoning fanaticism. CAIR and its objectives."
"All"? I should think that would be enough! They are doing far more than that. They are massing numbers in a migratory attack and getting Muslims elected into office. Note that when asked whether he would consider the Constitution above the Koran in level of authority in a situation where they conflicted, Ellison (the newly-elected Muslim congressman) refused to answer. Right there is the problem. They are Muslims above all else and thus the enemy, I don't care how "peaceful" they may seem. They are subverting out schools by funding schoolbooks and presenting Islam as if it were Buddhism, with no mention of the truth. Kids do not learn that Islam endorses rape, violence, intolerance, sexism, fanticism, etc. They do not learn that its founder was a pedophile who raped little pre-pubescent girls. They do not learn about the evils committed against women, Christians, homosexuals, and others in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and other Muslim countries. That's called brainwashing, Michel. They are buying up our news media and forcing them to present whitewashed images of Islam instead of the cold hard truth. They are buying out politicians. They are suing our people into silence and bullying airlines and law enforcement with their CAIR/ACLU nonsense. We should kill everyone in CAIR and the ACLU. What a great day that would be for America! They are setting up mosques and madrassahs where they teach their children their virulent hatred of all things non-Muslim. They are trying to force sharia law onto our society. They are in the prisons converting already-violent criminals into fanatics (ie Muslims). In short, they are attacking us on ever level possible...via education, litigation, population, the media, politics, demographics, propaganda, etc. Against such a ruthless enemy you must be cold hearted and powerful if you hope to survive. It's the law of the jungle and cannot be appealed or repealed.
By now you should understand why they're not committing suicide bombings. Both Susan and myself and I believe Gelling & Infidellin have explained this to you in detail many, many times.
"I dare to venture that there is as little evidence for your fanatic minority, as there is for my silent moderate majority."
On the contrary, the fanatic minority I present is proven to exist. There are roughly 2 million of them in the USA, and they are aiding the hardcore fanatics by conducting more subtle aspects of warfare against us. And of course, if they were truly against terrorism, then we would see action on their part, which we do not.
"Please do not nail me on expressions or words, but the proponents of "extreme measures" in response to ISLAM seem to be the majority here."
Good! We need more people with their heads screwed on straight, who can identify the enemy and who are willing to take the enemy out before they take us out.
"Noah – I think that by now my posts contained a lot of acknowledgment."
No, they do not contain acknowledgement. At least three people have explained to you several times (each!) about why the Muslims in America are not conducting suicide bombing missions and other radical violent atrocities. You refuse to acknowledge those facts. You're still asking us why they're not out suicide bombing, weeks after we have explained it to you six times over. That's called being in denial, not acknowleding something.
"Look, Noah – just for a second, put yourself into my shoes and read my (heartfelt) apology to you guys and especially dhimmi. Then read the responses. How would that make you feel? While, as opposed to me, you see such as weakness, hence you find yourself rarely in that situation, I still think that you should be able to sum up the needed empathy to try it for just a second."
You need to understand that you have made a fool of yourself and presented yourself as weak, whining, unwilling to accept facts, in denial of reality, and erroneous on most of your statements. You've burned all sympathy people may have for you, you've blown any credibility you may have started with out the door, and you then made horrendously insulting claims towards those who disagreed with you (ie "Hitler would be proud"). Then you called for censorship. So you have no business crying "It's a tough crowd here". Of course it is! To you this is just some sort of stupid game. To the rest of us, this is hardcore warfare, this is about the survival of our way of life and our future.
"Come on, you are a gifted debater and know how in any good debate one is supposed to assume the other viewpoint for a moment, in order to understand the other's position."
No, one is supposed to find holes in the other person's arguments and defeat them. That is the purpose of a debate, to prove the other side wrong and your side correct. It's polite combat.
"Responses based upon that methode are evidently deemed more convicing."
No. In a debate, arguments are deemed convincing when they are based on irrefutable reality, when they stand after being exposed to criticism, and when they are founded in reality and historical fact. That's what wins a debate. And that is why you lose.
"Shouldn't a good debate follow the same basic ideas and rules? If you entertain my notion for a sec, a really good debate can therefore also not be won, but all parties end up winners, as we all learn, see different viewpoints, sometimes even end up agreeing on sub topics or concede individual points."
See, this proves my point. To you it's a game. It's about feeling good and patting your opponent on the back and being all chummy with him and saying "well, no one lost, we both won". That's sickeningly PC nonsense and now how you conduct a real debate, much less a war. This is why I have zeroo respect for you, Michel. You're a New Age Space Cadet. A Bliss Bunny. Everything is a game, everything is a sound bite, everything is about feel good, group hug, let's be nice to one another. In a war against a fanatical, brutal, uncivilized enemy that is called being suicidal. People who engage in that sort of attitude become pawns of the enemy and thus become the enemy themselves. You for example, Michel. Your refusal to understand the nature of the enemy and refusal to acknowledge reality, facts, and historical precedence dealing with their migratory attack patterns and level of duplicity is a liability to my country, my life, my friends and family. You are a soldier playing cops and robbers, with no idea who the real enemy is, and having no concept of what it means to survive at all costs. Your ignorance of reality puts me and my loved ones at risk. How would you feel about someone like that?
"Noah - do you sincerely believe that such a "quality" debate can be won?"
Yes, any debate can be won. The side that puts forth the more convincing argument, the side that shoots down the opponent's arguments and proves him wrong while successfuly defending his own arguments from the oppponent's assaults, that's the person who wins. You obviously believe in that insane modern PC attitude about "there is no loser, it's how you play the game". I can imagine that if you had kids, they'd be on a one of those soccer leagues that does not keep score so as not to offend one side by letting them "lose".
"Here is my virtual hand once more extended in respect and the understanding that we agree to disagree. Willing to reach out and meet me a 10th of the way?"
No, I cannot meet you even 1/100th of the way. You are totally, utterly, and completely wrong about the Muslim threat. You do not treat it as a lethal existential war, but rather as a game. Survival is not what you're looking for. You're looking for feel-good Kumbayah-style emotional indulgence. That is suicidal, and in my eyes, traitorous. Your ignorance of reality and refusal to face the truth become a liability to me. That's probably not what you were hoping to hear, but I never sugar-coat things, and I tell it like it is.
Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".
Reader comments (2108) on this item
Comment on this item
Support Daniel Pipes' work with a tax-deductible donation to the Middle East Forum. Daniel J. Pipes