1 readers online now  |  69 million page views

Rewriting History - Denial pure

Reader comment on item: Islamist Turkey vs. Secular Iran?
in response to reader comment: My reply to Mr. Zala

Submitted by Michel C. Zala (Switzerland), Jan 29, 2011 at 13:41

Yes, I talk about muslim culture, when I point out that, whenever Islam took over a region, wherever the Ottomans expanded to, it immediately stifled any expression of self-governing, individuality, debate, dissent, analyis and all the corresponding writing.

Most modern examinations are for instance perfectly reflected in the analysis of the battle of Lepanto, Salamis or Themormphylae, where Greek inspired (Democracy, debate, analysis, continuous improvement) warfare proved superior to wastly greater forces of the autocratic, rigid armies of the Sultan.

Considering the wealth concentrated in the Ottoman empire in all terms economical, it is almost inconceivable that they regressed to such an extent - heck , imploded. If that's not proof for a fundamentally inferior culture, since culture is always the backbone of any civilization, what is?

Yes, I admit, that in the name of Christianity many atrocities were commited as well. This is why Christianity underwent a reformation after all. The magnitude of genocides commited in the name of Allah up to this day however, is beyond comparison. This is in fact the key difference. Christianity reformed, while muslims still adhere to the same bloody ancient scriptures and still act accordingly. This is why in the name of Allah almost daily still innocent people are slaughtered, while you would be hard pressed to name just one somewhat current incident of Terror or genocide committed in the name of the Christian God.

But again, refraining from comparing genocides or crimes, which is futile and cynical, the question is, who is still killing? Who has never reformed?

The Western world had discouraged the practice of analytical education in these lands just to maintain stability and control

That is a load of bull. It is exactly my point, as it is Islam which discourages analytical education. Every single nation, such as Egypt indeed, where Islam became dominant, regressed almost immediately, which is why there is so little in terms of literature, science, architecture, technology, industrialisation, originating from those regions. And yes indeed again, without some western influence, nations such as Egypt or Tunesia would not have enjoyed some modest prosperity and progress.

You are applauding the events in Egypt and Tunesia, maybe soon Jordan? Sometimes I almost wish that Islamists would take over these so far moderate nations, as you could see very soon more of the mentioned regression to medieval times.

Now you come along and mention India, Turkey and China as leading examples for growing economies.... I laughed my ass off. Have you been in India lately? 50 miles outside of Dehli travelling on dirt roads and donkey chariots you find yourself in live medieval times. Same in China, by the way. Cheap labor and offshoring/outsourcing of western manufacture to slave labor nations do not an economy make, good man. And that is about all the Chinese and Indian offer to the world. Not one single key good, not one single new technology or achievement - nothing but cheap labor and consumer goods copies is, what both of these so called great economies offer to the world. It is a house of cards. China is already an environmental desaster and without the US consumer market they would implode immediately.

While China and India are desperately trying to put a man into orbit, dear naive Banerjeee, the Americans 40 years ago put a man on the moon. In 13 years we will see an American on Mars, while you guys still work on getting a satellite network up and running. Even our current problems and challenges are eons ahead, as you currently experience a short period of growth with the corresponding price to pay not even on the horizon yet - a development we saw 50 years ago. Your entire combined GDP fits into our social security bucket and you have the arrogance to proclaim our pending doom? Have you ever looked at the top hundred elite universities of the world, the nobel prices given out during the last decade? What have you produced during that period? Cheap labor and manufacture of even cheaper consumer goods.... Bravo.

We face problems, you do not even see on your horizon yet, and if you really want to compare, I invite you to visit the US or Europe, then go to China, Russia or India, where prosperity is concentrated on a handful of large agglomerations, but in no way shape or manner has transcended to the countryside, which very much so still looks like pre-industrial times.

I have visited Chinese factories, where children and women sit on the bare floor, polishing dinnerware with potatoes....all cheap crap which later lands on the shelves of our Walmarts or Carrefourw, and I lost all respect. Since you have not done that yourself, hence obviously blow smoke out of your behind, you believe that one shiny new building in Shanghai reflects the growing economical power of China....what you however not grasp is, that neither China nor India at present have the real backbone for a longlasting stable economical progress, as they simply profit from capitalism, but not yet are willing to pay the corresponding price. But the price will eventually have to be paid, as we have long ago done so.

Dubai? bancrupt. A desperate effort to cater to European tourism, aware that oil is an increasingly fading commodity. You name it asd an excample for muslim innovation and development? Ha. Every single building, the famous palms islands were built by Americans and Europeans. Only proves my point and the futility of your entire argument. IN 20 years, what stupid tourist willl ever spend his vacations in Dubai, when there is Nice, Monaco, St. Moritz? Wishful thinking by a desperate emir.

Yes, I have also outsourced IT work to India, because for the proce of one US IT professional, I was able to buy an entire Indian IT group. While that thus admittedly added to Indian prosperity, >I can nevertheless state that all critical work was always done domestically, while Indian workers pretty much were doing data entry type work. In other words, yes I too contributed to problems we face in the US at present, that all cheap labor moves overseas, but I contributed also to a fundamental change in the US, where more and more emphasis is put on quality, high technology and skilled workmanship - a trend which is in full motion in the US, while you guys still work with potatoes, patting yourself on your own shoulders for your economical progress.

Ask yourself, what mission critical product, what top quality tech or industrial good originates from China or India? Where is your automotive industry, your high tech manufacture, your space program,your military complex or other technological achievements? Whenever you engage in a techologically demanding project , you have to go to the US, Europe and either import or steal /copy the fruits of western innovation. Since the black powder no real breakthrough has ever originated from either muslim or Asian nations.... Show me something or otherwise shut up.

Oh, yes... China recently introduced its first prototype of a Stealth bomber. Looks eerily like the first generation of Lockheeds, introduced by the US about 40 years ago. We should be really afraid... you are right.

Dream on...dear Banerjee, or go and travel a bit, see where we all are in reality and then maybe you will get the urgently needed reality check. Face the facts, good man, you are still nothing more than the tallest of the midgets. Self-sustaining economies, my ass. Without us buying your cheap crap and outsourcing our cheapest labor to you, both of your economies would implode, which is, by the way, the reason, why the Chinese grudgingly hold on to our debth. They need us more than we need them, something they hate to admit.

But for a moment, reflect on a what if.

What if at some time the environmental burden becomes so heavy that people start dying in great numbers, what if unions start to develop and your worker bees start to demand equality, work safety, health benefits, decent salaries commensurate with already rising prices, when your underclass wants to own a house and demands a decent stadard of life, what if the consumer eventually will require quality again, what if in fact you start to produce some high tech goods which require Quality assurance systems in place with built-in continuous improvement, what if sooner or later you will face competition from even cheaper labor markets, what if western nations will impose trade regulations, no longer tolerating these unfair practises and huge trade deficits (CHI vs. US > 1 Tr Dollars !!!). Once your prices for goods and labor will go up ( and they will have to eventually), you, my dear Indian will have to compete on a level plainfield, where quality and workmanship, price-performance ratios decide. God help you all, when that happens, as you will lose the sale every single time.

All the above we already faced and the current economical downturn in the West can be attributed to some extent to adjustments in addressing these challenges. You on the other hand still live on borrowed time with all the above mentioned economical and socio-demographic challenges still ahead.. On top of that, our dependency on oil is fading fast which will further eliminate the sorrowful influence of the camel herders on western development...

Albeit - I am hopeful for Asia, as for instance successfully demonstrated in Japan and South Korea (incidentally western stye secular democracies), even though it will take much much longer for them to catch up, than most observers in the present superficial hype of the current 9% growth assess. Especially in the case of China a huge development of their political system as backbone for stable, sustainable economical growth will be a prerequisite. Their progress in capitalistic enclaves may eventually lead them to full democracies and thus to catching up on other dimensions as well, but China moves very slow in that regard.

The muslim nations however are doomed and will fade into irrelevance within decades. If Turkey chooses to join the islamistic block, so will they.

Submitting....

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

Comment on this item

Mark my comment as a response to Rewriting History - Denial pure by Michel C. Zala

Email me if someone replies to my comment

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

See recent outstanding comments.

Follow Daniel Pipes

Facebook   Twitter   RSS   Join Mailing List

All materials by Daniel Pipes on this site: © 1968-2021 Daniel Pipes. daniel.pipes@gmail.com and @DanielPipes

Support Daniel Pipes' work with a tax-deductible donation to the Middle East Forum.Daniel J. Pipes

(The MEF is a publicly supported, nonprofit organization under section 501(c)3 of the Internal Revenue Code.

Contributions are tax deductible to the full extent allowed by law. Tax-ID 23-774-9796, approved Apr. 27, 1998.

For more information, view our IRS letter of determination.)