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To Mr. Havas - finally my response to the muslim point of view

Reader comment on item: Islamist Turkey vs. Secular Iran?
in response to reader comment: to mr zala

Submitted by Michel C. Zala (Switzerland), Dec 23, 2010 at 11:23

>>>Well ı personally respect to everybody. Every country has her own perspective. Turks usually dislike america and israel very much.maybe more than any country on earth. But this is not in the hate level. we simply think america is a strong country ,so naturally strong ones eats the weak ones.

As Mr. Tovey pointed out several times, people who have not been brought up within the context and confines of our American ideals according to the declaration of independence, have a hard time to "get" Americans. You judge us according to your own way of thinking, from your own perspective, which is somewhat understandable. The fact that western societies on an economical/business dimension do in fact apply such darwinistic principles, attribute of capitalism after all, will undoubtedly make it even more difficult to promote the notion, that on a cultural, ideological foreign policy/strategic dimension naturally strong do not eat the weak, but have a moral obligation to lift them up.

To "eat the weak" is going against the fundamental principles our nation was built upon. We Americans believe in the superiority of our system with its cilvil liberties over all centralized, autocratic forms of government. Military History has clearly demonstrated that such truly Republican forms of government prevailed in the long run, while empires, dictatorships and any other repressive form of gov eventually imploded.

If you lived in the US, you could see this thinking alive everyday, where Americans fiercely defend their individual rights against any (disguised) effort by our own government to infringe upon them. Our latest President, Obama, just recently was handed a historical election defeat, because more and more Americans grew displeased with his efforts towards big government, interventionism and infringing upon the individual and state rights and liberties. Constitutionalism (believing verbatim in our constitution, which frames these rights and liberties of the citizen beautifully and is geared to constrain and limit the power of federal government) sometimes takes on almost bizarre forms, considering, that we live in the 21st century, as for instance Americans are given by their constitution "The Right To Bear Arms" and one could ( and probably should) argue the need for any citizen to own a fully automatic assault rifle.

In a crime ridden society, flooded with weapons, we nevertheless fiercely defend that right to own guns, because, on a societal dimension we hold our constitution as dear and holy as we esteem on a religious level our holy book, The Bible. It is because of these holy principles and values, that we would never occupy a country in order to expand our territory. Imperialism, Oppression and genozide goes against the grain of our belief system - in fact, this is exactly, why we feel compelled to intervene.

Apart from aforementioned moral dimension, there is however also a very logic, pragmatic explanation:

In order to prosper, we believe in capitalism and the in the constitution framed individual right to " pursue happiness". In a global economy however, capitalism can only function, when free markets exist. The health (in business terms, growth) of America's economy, which can no longer be separated from the world, depends on freedom and free markets not just in America, but abroad. Only prospering trade partners will contribute to our own prospering. Only people, who do well themselves, will be able to procure the goods, we offer. Hence, America not only occupies the moral high ground when intervening in oppressed regions, she also has a vital, pragmatic interest in doing so. For us to prosper, we need stability in the regions we trade with, which is, why we can not allow for Saddams, Taliban, Iran or at times Ru and CHi to undermine that stability.

While I can empathize with your difficulties to grasp our upbringing, cultural frame conditions and mindset, you may nevertheless be able to see the logical, pragmatic dimension, where it fundamentally is in our own interest to promote stability, democracy and freedom.

Since we are a super power, we can do, what other western democracies are no longer capable of: Acting according to a moral justification and mandate, while serving an admittedly pragmatic self-interest, which quite actually should be congruent with what you for instance would like to see in Turkey. Every human being, no matter creed, origin, color or religion is driven by the same basic instincts and needs. The need to prosper, the need to provide for their families, the need to live freely and without fear of oppression........" that all men are created equal...", as preambled in our beautiful, timeless constitution.

The interest of the people of the world must therefore undoubtedly and stringently align with ours. The problem is, that so many still live within the confines of repressive regimes and even a super power can not police the entire globe.

so it is normal. if we turks were the strong ones we would do the same.

What does that tell you? Could there be something wrong with your culture and/or ideology/religion?

we hated to see america in ıraq. saddam was americas man. so we dont buy american lies about bringing democracy to ıraq.actually this is very funny.

It is indeed a sad fact of history, that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. No doubt, that at some point Saddam had been supported by the West in order to build a balance vs. Iran. Not to finish the first gulf war and eliminate Saddam then and there, was indeed a grave mistake. Hindsight is 20/20 though. Sometimes however, politics is a choice between evils. Fact of ther matter is, that the Iraqi People are already way better off, than under Saddam. And a lot of neighbors, including the Turks, do sleep much better nowadays. Please do not forget, how much misery the man has brought to Turkey too, as he supported Kurdish separatists and undermined your own stability repeatedly.

we hate to see palestein suffer so much. most of us think america use israel as a base in middle east.and some of turks think jews use america.ı think the first way.ı used to respect ısrael personally.ı used to think israelis are the victoms also. but after the murders of turks ı have no sympathy left for them.

There are a lot of cooks having their fingers in that soup. Just consider one little fact: in 10 years, ISR has experienced over 1000 Terror attacks ( no war casualties included). The sometimes indeed heavy-handed paranoia is, if not justified, is certainly understandable. Compared to ISR's actions vis-a-vis Turks, many more Turks have died, due to the actions by Iranians, Saddam supported Kurds or SYR and Saudi Arabian funded Islamism. Open your eyes and see, where your real threats originate from.

if ı lived in iran ı would be a terrorist. if ı lived in saudi ı would be a terrorist,even if ı lived in secular algeria again ı would be a terrorist. all muslim countries have dicatatorships. when you have dictators humans have no rights. we believe that all dictators are americas paid officers. islams main problem is this.they are not healthy people

What is wrong with that picture? Do you imply that a muslim living in Iran is by sheer nature a terrorist?
I hate to use Russians or Chinese as analogy, but, living in tight restraints of oppressive regimes still, did not make every one a Terrorist. You make my point here, as you yourself state that the combination of Islam plus repressive regime leads automatically to terrorism. Logically derived, there is something fundamentally wrong with Islam.

Secondly, does above statement not lay a moral justification for pro-active elimination of those regimes throughout the muslim world, thus the invasion of Iraq and the engagement in Afghanistan?

if there is a real islamic terror on earth done in the name of allah,

Believe you me, there is, to the count of over 100,000 deaths and 80,000 injured over 10 years.

it is orginised by saudi arabia and america partnership using backward afghan pakistan and ıraq people. america war industry needs enemy. and after defeating the communists new enemy is we muslims.ı really think this way.

You fall into the trap of conspiracy theory here. That industry is a tiny, marginal part of the American GDP.
The Iraq and Afghani engagement resulted in a huge financial loss for the Americans and Terror cannot be defeated by planes and tanks. Are the muslims the new enemy? They certainly act accordingly, don't they? Consider the rethoric and polemic originating from almost all muslim capitals. Consider the worldwide terror, almost 100% of muslim nature, consider the victims of mentioned acts. Worldwide concerns and fears, Islamophobia did not just come from nothing. We do have ample reasons to feel attacked. It was not us wo declared war on Islam ( see speech Obama in Cairo), war (Dhjihaad) was declared upon us and is waged almost every single day. From Indonesia to Iraq, we can read daily about a terror attack, a bombing or a shooting by Islamists, killing indiscriminately. Can you really blame us westerners for a growing resentment against Islam?

Dear Havas, we did not create that enemy out of thin air. Open war has been declared upon us.

ı think europe deserves a respect. nature,history,people,culture,arts,cities and everything is very beautiful in europe.unlike america brought democracy to ıraq ,europe really helped turkey very much about human rights and laws.

Well, dear Havas, if America had not intervened in Europe not that long ago, there would not be any human rights there. No prosperous Germany, no free Poland, Hungary, Tcheq Republic and the Serb repression would still rule the balkan. There would not be any Russia on the brink of democracy, no prospering Japan, South Korea or Taiwan. There would be chaos on the Indian subcontinent. One could argue that without America, even China would not have allowed for at least some movement towards capitalism. Not too bad indeed, quite actually one hell of an impeccable record for a nation.

Lastly, if you follow the causal chain, your mentioned human rights in Turkey therefore must to at least some extent be attributed to American efforts. Put your jealousy and inferiority complex aside for a second, and you will appreciate the immense positive impact of America during just 100 years. Compared to other main powers, you simply must by now concede these points and understand my justified pride of American accomplisments.

EU Integration

I concede the point. It may indeed not the right time at present. As far, as your economy is concerned, Turkey by GDP is on the 17th rank, only 2 ahead of tiny Switzerland with zero ressources - just to put this notion into proper relations. Ranked per Income per Capita, sorry to say, Turkey is still far from even close to any European nation. To my opinion certainly no reason to feel arrogant yet. Be aware, If indeed an islamist trend continues, there may be a good chance for losing ground quickly.

ı also disagree with your opinion that west must act privilaged to turkey from the other muslims. because ı dont believe that islam has anything wrong in it. it is the people making the difference.when other muslims free themselves they will become better.

The crux of the problem once again. There is nothing wrong with Islam. All arguments in opposition to this position, all facts and figures can not penetrate to people living within the tight confines of this religion. The irony is, that you mention, that other muslims need to free themselves, but fail to understand, that by freeing themselves, they by design will have to question Islam, reform it, nurture dissent and overthrow its rigid structure. By sheer definition Islamism stands opposed to any notion of individual freedom.

For as long, as you accept and embrace Islam, as it presents itself today, you can by sheer logical reasoning never be free.

Submitting....

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