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Getting angry,are we?

Reader comment on item: Prepare to attack [Iran]
in response to reader comment: Nura, Trinity, Pagan, Islam Christianity, Yemen, Nation-State

Submitted by Nura (United States), Jul 12, 2008 at 03:47

You're going to use the syncrestism argument? I've found that via wikipedia.

Okay, here's the deal: Jesus said to Peter: I give you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven, whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed Heaven.

The reason why certain traditions like the Christmas tree and Easter eggs were incorporated was to convert pagans, that is, get them to accept Jesus. However, none of the Christian teachings were compromised.

They were saved because of it.

So taking part in secular festivities that no longer have pagan significance hardly means that Christianity is paganism.

Throughout the history of religion there have always been deviations. Syncrestism is an aspect of that deviation. This is why in Islam we are very strict on practicing the religion as we were instructed from the Prophet(PBUH). Unfortunately, the religion that was sent with Jesus(PBUH) shows very little remnants in Christanity these days.

None of the Christian teachings were comprised? You made an oxymornic statement. How can the incorporation of pagan beliefs preserve the religion? Let's say the intention was to save the pagans, why was not the traditions stopped later rather than making them a foremost part of the religion? Doesn't the Bible speak against Christmas trees?


10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

10:5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

You can interpret this however you like, but it is clear that the adornment of trees was a pagan ritual that was shunned. How then can Christians reclaim it?

Ah, secular festivities is what they are now? I hardly call Easter and Christmas secular. Despite your perceptions, you agree that Christians allowed paganism in their Church in order to win the popularity of the masses. Do you realize what you are saying? Let's take it a step further and say that the Trinity was also incorporated to win the popularity of the pagans! Why is this so hard to believe when you know that this has happened in Christmas and Easter? It was actually a pagan King, Constantine, who "converted" to Christianity that actually created the doctrine of the Trinity. In addition, any Christian who did not accept this doctrine was killed.

There is more to the egg in Easter than you stated. Actually Easter was named after the goddess of spring or rebirth. There are actually many names for this goddess depending on language, most commonly called Eastre, however Ishtar is also a known name. This goddess was known for her love of rabbits and she is believed to have come to earth in an giant egg. When these ancient Babylonians were celebrating this holiday they would decorate eggs and have a feast. Ever wondered why rabbits lay eggs on Easter?

I have really did allot of research on pagan rituals that exist in Christianity from communion, to speaking in tongue. It's really amazing.

Valentine was a saint and a Pope, and Valentine's Day was conceived by the writings of English writer Geoffery Chaucer in the Middle Ages. So, I guess the ties to Hera and Zeus's wedding really aren't apparent, especially since there is a month margin of error.

Who is Cupid then? If this started out as a religious holiday, why is it now celebrated with alcohol and fornication? Why don't people go to the church for this day? Valintines Day is nothing more that an ancient pagan fertility festival.

Thanks, but those weren't named by the Church.

Did the church condemn these names? They were named by those who called themselves Christians.

It's my understanding that to name a planet Mohammed would incite concerns over idolatry?

Where did this understanding come from? If it an authentic Hadith ,I can understand the reasoning considering what the Greeks and Romans did! Islam protects it's believers from idolatry.

Today, it's countless Muslims who converting. I wonder what Mr. Durant would say about that?

He would probably say why nuke Iran then?

If Muslims are converting at an unprecedented rate, then the worlds problem is solved! By your testimony we should all be

Christians in the next decade especially with the Missionary "Bible For Food" programs.

Oh, it stems from it, yes. Mohammed knew of Catholics, I'm sure. But like every other religion that's come from us, things were changed for some convienent motive.

It would be safer to say that he knew of Christians, Catholics are a sect. In fact, a Christian King in Ethiopia gave Muslims asylum when they were being persecuted. Why? Because he said that they worshiped the same God. He later became Muslim.

Despite the fact that Our Prophet(PBUH) knew Christians hardly proves that Islam came from them. It's really not a great mystery how Islam came. It is simply a succession of religion since Adam, hence the similarities. They came from the same source, that is why there are similarities.

Nura, the USA is a secular country and doesn't govern by prophecy

Really? What is the New World Order then? Why must Israel exist? Why were Jews given that land? It's all based on Biblical prophesy! How else could they steal the land and justify it? Why was Bush called The prince of Magog when he visited Israel recently? The Bush scroll was given to him. You should read it it's very interesting.


According to the Israel project, Israel supports and maintains key holy places, even Muslim ones. Radical, belligerent Muslims seek to dominate them. I'll even bet that's the reason they have a mosque in Jerusalem: just to show how much better than every other religion Islam is.

Wow! that's really wonderful. You should look into how such a great job their doing with Al Aqsa. We have a mosque in Jerusalem because it is the site where our Prophet(PBUH) went to heaven during the night journey. How is this showing that we are better? How many Churches and synagogues are in Jerusalem? Please, what kind argument is that?

Many mujahedeen would regard you as an infidel, Nura, despite your attempts to defend Islam on here.

Where? Where's your proof?

Actually, most Muslim-majority nations have systems of government that can heavily regulate any type of foreign influence. It's called sharia law. The key is enforcement, Nura, not policy.

That is simply a misrepresentation. Haven't you heard anything I said? Muslim governments support Western influence! They are all puppets working for perks. Are they going to allow a challenge to their power and existence by the Islamic awakening of their people? People who ask "Why are we not supporting are brothers" People who ask "Why do we have a King when it is against Islam?" Come on, politics is politics. These government could care less about the Sharia. Things are not always what they seem.

Sharia law is much more than capital punishment. In fact, there are only a few situations that require it so why do people like you continue to talk about Sharia as if you know what it is! Sharia Law govern every aspect of Islamic life. It gave women the right to own property and inherit. It gave children,animals,and the poor rights. It prohibits forcing women to marry a man she does not want. I could go on for pages on aspects of sharia law which is very dense. Corporal punishment has a very,very, minute part is this law. Convenient to ignore everything else.

What bin laden is really mad about is that fact that Western female soldiers were in Riyadh in 1991 defending his homeland while the mujaheedin were nowhere to be found as Saddam bombed their country.

He also thinks the price of oil is still too low.

He should be happy now! The crisis is over.

Well, I've seen his tapes translated on CNN and he didn't mention anything about female solders. Wow, that is a new response. You hear something new everyday. I think he made it clear why he is so angry. If it was only female soldiers why didn't he just wage a Jihad against them?

That is a lie. Islamism was designed to spread by war.

Jesus said:

Luke 12:51

Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Profound statement. Only a believer truly understand what this means. In case Dhimmie is reading, Muslims acknowledge that Jesus was a prophet and that he was given the Gospel. As Muslims we believe that the book was corrupted, however, the Quran has revealed the truth in it. As Muslims we can distinguish the truth from the corruption. This is why I quote the Bible.

Islam is designed to be a light that will never go out. It is a promise from Allah. If this is what you speak of, then Allah's religion must reign supreme,however, we know that conversions under the sword does not count. We do not kill to convert, unlike so-called Christians, it would be counterproductive.

So you think that one Islamic state is a threat to the world?

We understand they want us all dead. They should come out and fight like real mujaheedin if God is really on their side.

Ah, here we go. The real language of bigotry. Who is "we","they", and "us?"

I agree. Sharia law is immoral.

Prove it. If it is immoral then the Bible is immoral.

"But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence."

luke 19:27

exodos 21:12


If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. 21:5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:


Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. 21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the

Exodus 21:7 says it's OK to sell your daughter into slavery.


If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. 21:9 And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. 21:10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.


And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death. (21:15, 17)
Kill unruly children
A child who hits or curses his parents must be executed.


And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.


Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,


Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.


If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.


But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.


If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.


And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword


And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:


There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount


Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

22:19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.


Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.


And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
32:28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men


When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto .


So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations.

You said that the law was tough because the Hebrews had no social order, what was the Kingdom of David and Solomon?

These laws are much more sever than ANY law in Sharia. Are you going to say that the Bible is immoral?

Looking at the literacy rates, I would say, no, not all Muslims know it.

Huh, that was a low blow. No additional comment needed.

God has blessed us would be more appropriate. We didn't get to where we are by letting God do all the work for us.

Tell me why would God bless this nation considering how it was founded? If this nation is blessed then the rich nations of Muslims is also blessed. Imagine the worlds most valuable asset being in the hands of Muslims. In the sacred land of Muslims. Muslims are among the richest individuals in the world. This economy not only relies on their oil, but their investments. In short, if those rich Arabs took their money out of this country, our stock market would crash. Simple as that.

It is obvious that wealth and power is not the keys to salvation, in-fact, it is the opposite. For you to say that this nation is blessed solely because it is powerful, I would only say again that Allah gives power,for a time, to whom he wills. All power and wealth belongs to Allah and he will make this very clear to whomever does not perceive it now. The history of great civilizations is that they always fall. My question for you is how do they usually fall? From an outside foe? Or, from within?

But you can't, Nura. Heck, you won't even leave the USA for one, so you're hardly in a position to be telling Saudi Arabia to shut its doors!

I never said that Saudi should shut it's door, but I guess that could work too. In fact, I believe there was a King who tried that. He was killed in a coo I believe. I wonder who was behind that? I promise, if Saudi shuts it's door I will be on the next plan out of here. It will get crazy very quick.

The reason why, Nura, Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Muslim world cannot do this are because they need our water and our food. It's as simple as that. Muslims love to brag about their numbers, but they are mum on the environmental implications. Your countries cannot support themselves, Nura. That is why they have the relations with the West.

We need the energy, they need the sustenance.

Really? I guess the Muslim world was importing water from Europe all this time. How were they eating before Western influence? In fact, they were doing quite well. That's the latest! Oil for food indeed.

Religion doesn't feed people, give them drink or shelter.

Matthew 14:30-31... But when he [Peter] saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Religion brings faith and faith can fill empty bellies. Our prophet told us that there will come a day when the only food of the believer will be with the words "There is no God but Allah." It is faith that will feed and give shelter during the trials to come.People who have little of it will be the ones who go hungry.

Really? So harboring terrorists in Afghanistan and giving them infrastructure and training camps means "HAD NO involvement?"

Your using a phrase that was invented specifically for The War On Terror. There is no Ethical concept that condones war because of "Harboring" a would be terrorist. Especially when there was no proof. When did "guilty by affiliation" become ethical? The Taliban had NO involvement in 911 and neither did Saddam.

Finally, you're starting to see it from the nation-state perspective. It's about individual sovereignity, Nura. France has just as much to gain from a weaker USA as Russia does. Why do you think they don't support the Iraq War? Some higher moral principle?

No, they want the USA to weaken. France has always felt threatened by the Anglo-Saxon imprints of North American and the UK, and don't let any bleeding-heart English-speaking liberal tell you otherwise.

So why is it more ethical when the West seeks sovereignty? Is this not a hypocrisy? The law of the fittest is why. The strongest makes the rules that the world must comply to. I know that there are allot of "interests" at stake, I'm not one-dimensional. Everyone wants a piece of the pie that is the oil rich Middle East, so jealousy is normal.

The reason why these countries were attacked wasn't because they were Islamic, Nura. Somalia was destabilizing and becoming a threat to its neighbors, the Taliban harbored terrorists who killed innocent people, and Saudi Arabia struck Israel first.

You keep believing that. I'm not fooled. Then why was the Caliphate destroyed?

The secularists won't fit into the picture for long if the zealots have their way. First order of business to ruling the world: clean your own house! Hilter knew it all to well!

Why do people keep comparing Islam to Nazism? In case you forgot Hitler was a Christian who justified what he did by the Bible. He said that Jews had the mark of Caan. He's your shame not ours.

Because that would be a lie, and it sounds like something al Jazeera would say to get more Muslims to be paranoid.

Aljazeera is an Arabic news channel. It has Muslim and Christian Arabs who anchor and report and I would hardly call them the mouthpiece for Sharia Law considering you barely see a woman with her hair covered on the show.

Turkey doesn't belong in the EU, and it's still a sorry excuse for a secular nation with all the persecution of Christians.

I guess religious Muslims got it better? Muslim women can't wear a scarf to work or school, how's that for persecution.

Don't put words in my mouth, Nura. Freedom is a small part to this, and I'm not so sure it's worth American lives to give ungrateful Muslims freedom. But my roommate was from Iraq, and he said the USA does good things over there. You sound just like some cocky kid trying to out-debate everyone on here, but it won't work with me.

Yea, they are ungrateful because they are tired of their wives,mother,fathers,sisters,brothers, and children would have to die for that freedom. They didn't read the fine print. I could care less what your roommate thinks. Is he there now? Ask him how is the water.

I see Iraqi's asking for Saddam back on Al Jazzeera. At-least they had clean water and regular electricity. I am 27 years old, beyond the "kid" category. I was on the debate team in High School, won a few trophies actually, that was a long time ago.

You may be more experienced and older than me, but, I have learned long, long ago that men mature much slower than women. I also learned that age does not bring wisdom. Wisdom, not knowledge, is the gift that we could all hope for. Unlike money and power, only the blessed gets it. David was only a boy when he slew Goliath.

"He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death.

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