69 million page views

Nura, Trinity, Pagan, Islam Christianity, Yemen, Nation-State

Reader comment on item: Prepare to attack [Iran]
in response to reader comment: response to Straight_Talk_Luigi/4

Submitted by Straight_Talk_Luigi (United States), Jul 5, 2008 at 02:29

If that was true why is Christian society Pagan? All of your Holidays, Christmas, Easter, Holloween,Valentines day ect… They are all pagan. That is why you have wiccans who celebrate them too? You should re-search that.

You're going to use the syncrestism argument? I've found that via wikipedia.

Okay, here's the deal: Jesus said to Peter: I give you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven, whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed Heaven.

The reason why certain traditions like the Christmas tree and Easter eggs were incorporated was to convert pagans, that is, get them to accept Jesus. However, none of the Christian teachings were compromised.

They were saved because of it.

So taking part in secular festivities that no longer have pagan significance hardly means that Christianity is paganism.

You really don't find people making Yule Logs for Thor.

Valentine was a saint and a Pope, and Valentine's Day was conceived by the writings of English writer Geoffery Chaucer in the Middle Ages. So, I guess the ties to Hera and Zeus's wedding really aren't apparent, especially since there is a month margin of error.

Easter is a movable feast in my Church, but as for the eggs, well, they are symbol of the circle of life, and I would presume the eggs, though they were used by Persians to celebrate the spring equinox, also symbolized Jesus's Death and Resurrection.

Halloween is actually based on an ancient Celtic festival, but it's done in a spirit of fun, not of the old tradition of alignment of the living and dead. It is not a Christian holiday, but a traditional, cultural one.

All of our days of the week, months, planets, solar systems, even stars are named after Gods and Goddesses!

Thanks, but those weren't named by the Church. It's my understanding that to name a planet Mohammed would incite concerns over idolatry?

Triune gods were known first to the Babylonians, Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans who were all pagan. They all had some form of a Trinity. Christianity is the only monotheistic religion that accepts a similar doctrine!

Sure, if you count Zeus, Posedien and Hades as a trinity. The examples you refer to aren't Three in One, like Christianity is.

Why does our currency and monuments display ancient Egyptian, pagan symbols on our currency on the Washington monument which actually has ancient Egyptian witchcraft symbols on it? You should also research Satanism in this culture.

My understanding of the one person I've talked with in the Satan-worshipping circles chose this religion in order to be "different." He/She was a liberal.

Nice try on the money symbols, but you seem to have forgotten about IN GOD WE TRUST.

"Christianity did not destroy paganism, it adopted it"- Will Durant

Ah, Yes! Will Durant, the philosopher with the positive spin on Islam. Interesting quote, but I have to admit that countless pagans converted to Christianity. Today, it's countless Muslims who converting. I wonder what Mr. Durant would say about that?

I thought Islam came from Roman Catholicism? The moon cult? Before Islam came people were worshipping much more than that. That is why Muhammad(PBUH) came in the first place! To stop idol worship. This is obvious. There used to idols in the Kaabba, there aren't anymore thank s to Islam.

Oh, it stems from it, yes. Mohammed knew of Catholics, I'm sure. But like every other religion that's come from us, things were changed for some convienent motive.

Do some research on the statues of illa and of why certain findings in Yemen are being kept under wraps.

In the Bible the anti-Christ will rule from Jerusalem. This is what Israel is working for. This is what The U.S. supports when they support Israel.

Nura, the USA is a secular country and doesn't govern by prophecy.

Most Americans do not understand the reason for this relationship between these two countries. If it were not for the constant lobby in Washington, we would have condemned them like every other country in the world.

According to the Israel project, Israel supports and maintains key holy places, even Muslim ones. Radical, belligerent Muslims seek to dominate them. I'll even bet that's the reason they have a mosque in Jerusalem: just to show how much better than every other religion Islam is.

Okay you don't support everything that the U.S. does, I don't support everything that Muslim countries do! As simple as that. You will not find me endorsing a single one. The purpose of my argumentation is for my religion. I am defending my religion. This is my reason for arguments.

That's why you're points are easy to counter. Despite your cocky attitude on here, Nura, you don't impress me that much. You're so wrapped up in Islam you can't see from anyone else's perspective.

We are in the Last days. Gods time is not the same as our time, so yes it has been the end of the world since Adam. This does not diminish the seriousness of the times.

Why is that in every single era for the last 1000 years people think the end is near?

Do you realize that the Mujahedeen are a minority in this Religion?

Define "this religion" and I'll get back to you. Many mujahedeen would regard you as an infidel, Nura, despite your attempts to defend Islam on here.

Thos who are actively trying to expel Western influence from their nations are a very small minority.

Actually, most Muslim-majority nations have systems of government that can heavily regulate any type of foreign influence. It's called sharia law. The key is enforcement, Nura, not policy.

I agree that Faith is all that is own the side of the Muslim. It is said that it can move mountains.

Faith can indeed.

It is not world control that they seek, it is the expulsion of Western influences from Islamic countries that they call for. This is what Bin Laden said.

What bin laden is really mad about is that fact that Western female soldiers were in Riyadh in 1991 defending his homeland while the mujaheedin were nowhere to be found as Saddam bombed their country.

He also thinks the price of oil is still too low.

What better information than from the mouth of a jihadist?

Taqiyya, that's why. I know what they are really after.

They are not seeking world control.

That is a lie. Islamism was designed to spread by war.

At most the control over their countries.

They won't stop there.

It is not until the West realizes what they are really saying will they begin to understand the dynamics of the problem. I say they already understand, the people just don't.

We understand they want us all dead. They should come out and fight like real mujaheedin if God is really on their side.

I rather follow the religion of Abraham; he was not of the polytheists. Nor did he preach of a triune God.

Ever thought about being a Jew? That's why Nura, we have the NEW Testament.

Nura, the Middle East will soon no longer be able to sustain itself. All Europe has to do is shut its doors and all for them will be lost in civil war.

Where exactly to you look from;CNN? Sharia law is RARELY applied in so-called Muslim countries. As Muslims we know this. That is why Muslims around the World call for an Islamic State. A State where Islam and Allah will be the greatest law, not man's.

Islam has no authority here and it never will. I don't watch CNN, I can't stand it.

Muslims Suffer because of the immoral Leadership.

I agree. Sharia law is immoral.

Dictators that the West prefers because they can control them. The leadership that does not practice the religion and persecute those who practice the religion.

Yeah, right. It's the Christians who get persecuted. You've got that one mixed up, alright.

Did you know the religious Muslims are persecuted in Muslim countries? Of course you don't. Islam is not the problem, the problem is the lack thereof.

No, because they really don't, because Islam is too strict there, Nura!

You can not tell me of the trials to come for Muslims, We already know!

Stop acting like it's some revealed, divine, secret, Nura. It's obvious to anyone.

Our prophet has told us exactly the perils that face us. We know what is to come, and yes it will get very bad before it becomes good. All Muslims know this. It has already been prophesied.

Looking at the literacy rates, I would say, no, not all Muslims know it.

These trials will not come from the religion, but from the lack of it. Money and power in the greatest test for humanity. Having an abundance in either does not prove righteousness, as you once mentioned that God gave the West power.

God has blessed us would be more appropriate. We didn't get to where we are by letting God do all the work for us.

We could also say that people who call themselves Muslims are the most wealthy in the world. What does that prove? Only that both of these nations have and are being tested. The wealth in Saudi will leave, that it the best for them. Their wealth has only corrupted them. I would hope that the West would shut its doors sooner than later.

But you can't, Nura. Heck, you won't even leave the USA for one, so you're hardly in a position to be telling Saudi Arabia to shut its doors!

The reason why, Nura, Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Muslim world cannot do this are because they need our water and our food. It's as simple as that. Muslims love to brag about their numbers, but they are mum on the environmental implications. Your countries cannot support themselves, Nura. That is why they have the relations with the West.

We need the energy, they need the sustenance.

This is why your arguments about Islam become unraveled. You argue for the return of Islam, the mixing of religion and government. You got your degree in psychology. Want to know what those of us who study international relations know?

Religion doesn't feed people, give them drink or shelter.

The Five Pillars? Peh! Islamism is all about spreading and subjugation these days, Nura. It's made a mockery out of Islam by using your religion's core teachings as a marketing model, the same types of models used in the West to make money!

You can blame the West all you want, but it wasn't' for the European Renaissance, you'd be stuck in the desert using camel urine as medicine, my people would be hunting big game animals, and we would have never had met on here and I would have missed a chance to instruct you, Nura.

The reason why Muslim leaders go along with secular ideals are to make life better. That's all there is to it. You just don't acknowledge it because you HAVE to believe that Islam is the exception and is special, but it's not, Nura.

I do not underestimate my religion. I am displaying a frustration with the people of Islam.

Why? Because the women don't wear hijab, and the men don't beat their wives enough?

In the coming days it is Faith that will aid our survival, not force. This is what I am saying. We see this in Palestine which is a good foreshadow of the future. Muslims will always resist, this is true, but the threat that the West has in Islam is not a threat of the genocide of the Western world. This is clear.

It is the threat that Muslims will become more resistant to Western ideas which are enough to cause invasion as we see in Iraq and Afghanistan which HAD NO involvement in 911.

Really? So harboring terrorists in Afghanistan and giving them infrastructure and training camps means "HAD NO involvement?"

Then I guess the British "HAD NO involvement" in the squabbles of the Middle East after it divided up the land. They just did their best, like the Taliban, you know ;)

It is the ideological war that the West is afraid of losing. It's a threat to their sovereignty which is what it is really all about, Western World sovereignty.

Finally, you're starting to see it from the nation-state perspective. It's about individual sovereignity, Nura. France has just as much to gain from a weaker USA as Russia does. Why do you think they don't support the Iraq War? Some higher moral principle?

No, they want the USA to weaken. France has always felt threatened by the Anglo-Saxon imprints of North American and the UK, and don't let any bleeding-heart English-speaking liberal tell you otherwise.

How do we know this, because to this day any country that tries to establish an Islamic state is attacked and bombed unprovoked! We se this in Afghanistan, Somalia, Saudi Arabia (This was a little while after the country was established).

So, you are for the formation of an Islamic State. Just as I suspected. Actually, Afghanistan is an Islamic Republic, Saudi Arabia fully enforces sharia law. Somalia was controlled by warlords.

The reason why these countries were attacked wasn't because they were Islamic, Nura. Somalia was destabilizing and becoming a threat to its neighbors, the Taliban harbored terrorists who killed innocent people, and Saudi Arabia struck Israel first.

It is very clear the Muslims are not allowed to have an Islamic state when the Papacy has a state,

Oh, please, spare me! You're going to compare the Vatican, which is the smallest country in the world (110 acres) and nestled inside a city, with Saudi Arabia?

Jews have a state!!

Israel isn't a religious state, Nura, it's a secular democracy that funds mosques!

In the papal state they do not have to abide by the laws of their nation. It's basically its own country.

My question, what is the harm of a small Islamic nation other than it threatens Western Sovereignty.

Muslims haven't expanded their territory from the time of Mohammed to the Siege of Vienna for a harmless, small state as you put it.

If you really want this, ask the Maghreb nations. They have vast desert territory that is empty.

What a statement! You are contradicting yourself. If it is about Islamic Zealots, how do Islamic secularists fit into the picture?

It's about BOTH, Nura! BOTH claim to be the true form of Islam! I guess it's time to get that pope of yours!

The secularists won't fit into the picture for long if the zealots have their way. First order of business to ruling the world: clean your own house! Hilter knew it all to well!

How about saying most of the Islamic world is secular, and you have couple of Muslims who are resisting this political structure.

Because that would be a lie, and it sounds like something al Jazeera would say to get more Muslims to be paranoid.

That would be more accurate. If Islam was put first, believe me, the world would be a much better place.

Iraq was secular and it did not stop the invasion.

See? It's NOT a war on Islam.

Palestine is also secular but it deos not help their plight.

Not anymore, not with Hamas and Hezbollah running the place.

Turkey is the most secular of All and they will never be apart of the European Union. Allot of good it does us. It is only a tool for corruption and control.

Europe is uniting more so out of fear than some higher principle. Were the old empires in tact, they would still be at each other's throats.

Turkey doesn't belong in the EU, and it's still a sorry excuse for a secular nation with all the persecution of Christians.

It won't matter anyway because the EU will soon fall flat on its face.

Come on! Do you forget that he was cooperating with the U.N. before Iraq was invaded. I guess you also forget that he was actively destroying his long range missiles also before they invaded. He said that he did not have the weapons!!! He let the U.N. come check what more could he do? The U.S. wanted this war, there was no way he could have avoided it.

Nura, I used to work for the UN and I represented our agency at the initial Oil for Food Program Congressional Hearing, and a roommate of mine in college was an Iraqi so I really don't need anyone else's OPINION when I have pages and pages full of testimony from sources at the highest accessible levels and someone with first-hand, unbiased testimony. Saddam was NOT cooperating, he was making a game out of the situation, he wasn't letting inspectors in, he was engaged in suspicious arms movements and he was putting up a big bluff and flexing his muscles to the rest of the world.

The US acted on bad intelligence and Saddam's bluff. That's all there is too it, Nura. It's as simple as that. It's not about wanting the war, it's about taking preventive action that in this case was not necessary.

The American are there because it serves their interests!

Are you surprised? It's what nation-states do!

Yes, it's an inconvenience for the soldiers but who cares about them?

The jihadists and certain liberals sure don't, I can tell you that!

They barely can get their money for service after they come back here. The U.S. is in the best strategic position to help Israel for a war in Iran. Let's not forget, Iraq does have allot of Oil that was not available to us before the war. Oh, I guess you still believe that it's for freedom.

Don't put words in my mouth, Nura. Freedom is a small part to this, and I'm not so sure it's worth American lives to give ungrateful Muslims freedom. But my roommate was from Iraq, and he said the USA does good things over there. You sound just like some cocky kid trying to out-debate everyone on here, but it won't work with me.

Muslims are pawns in a cruel plan. Divide and conquer all over again.

Playing the victim again, are we? Your concern for the soldiers and persecuted Christians are so touching.


Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

Follow Daniel Pipes

Facebook   Twitter   RSS   Join Mailing List

All materials by Daniel Pipes on this site: © 1968-2024 Daniel Pipes. daniel.pipes@gmail.com and @DanielPipes

Support Daniel Pipes' work with a tax-deductible donation to the Middle East Forum.Daniel J. Pipes

(The MEF is a publicly supported, nonprofit organization under section 501(c)3 of the Internal Revenue Code.

Contributions are tax deductible to the full extent allowed by law. Tax-ID 23-774-9796, approved Apr. 27, 1998.

For more information, view our IRS letter of determination.)