69 million page views

To Maqsood: On matters pertaining to Sura 9, mostly.

Reader comment on item: Salman Rushdie and British Backbone
in response to reader comment: Answers for Plato and all Non Believers Part-5

Submitted by Plato (India), Aug 3, 2007 at 10:09

On matters pertaining to Sura 9, mostly.

>>Q:If this is not abuse of divine power what is it. When God wishes to destroy a township he orders the people to commit abomination and then destroys it. The people of those communities were Allah's own creation, but yet he destroys them completely including the innocent (children and babies).

Ans:By your conversation it seems that you believe on Almighty Allah and surely you should. Have you ever tried to find the reason why HE destroyed all those nations??<<

Yes I do believe it is this Almighty Allah who is the cause of so much misery on earth. The reason HE destroys those nations is given in 17:16 when he says "And when We would destroy a township We send a commandment to its folks who live at ease and afterward they commit abomination therein….". Isn't Allah saying that the townspeople commit abomination after his commandment?? Good enough reason for you? Remember the townspeople would also have included sinless children, who Allah would have killed.

>>If not so then 1st find it out. They refused the existence of their lord. It is the most unacceptable act near HIM to deny him. you know Hazarat Nooh (A messenger of God ) continued teaching for 9 hundred years but no one believed him except a few. Allah tolerated them for such a long time. It is one example

Is Allah some kind of barbaric tribal chief who wants to be recognized by his clansmen as their leader, failing which they are executed? If Noah preached for 900 years and still could not convince his people it means they realized that he was preaching nonsense. Why could Allah's message not be conveyed to his hearers? Allah's messengers always seem to do a poor job. Noah struggling for 900 years and in frustration he invites Allah to destroy all the unbelievers which was practically the entire human race.

Muhammed struggling to get Allah's message across for 13 years with little success in Mecca. He succeed only when he subdued them with arms. Allah's choice of messengers was very poor. As the Koran itself says many of Allah's messengers suffered the indignity of being killed by people for whom they were sent. Maybe that is why he stopped messaging humanity with Muhammed?

>>Can you feel the anger of your father if you refuse to be his son????. Then HE is the creator of everything.<<

If I know my father, he would not be angry, rather he would be sad. He would realize that the reason I refuse to be his son is either he was not a good parent and could not win my love or I have a mental problem or I am being influenced by a religion like Islam, for does not the Koran say:

YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.

>>you can well imagine how HE feels when someone deny HIM. Imagine How merciful He is that HE waits for ages that the person or the group repents and return toward HIM.<<

He is supposed to be the greatest being in the universe. Why should He feel slighted because some puny human He has created turns his face away from Him. Why does Allah have emotions of anger and happiness just like humans? It is so easy for humans to manipulate his emotions by deciding to be virtuous or sinful.

>>if it does not happen then HE has the right and power to destroy that person or group so that the rest learn a lesson to come on right path and worship HIM<<

It is a right He has given Himself. If as He claims He is a merciful being why does He not forgive her/him? He has the power to destroy, He also has the power to convince them of whatever He wants. Why does He not do that rather than destroy everything, kill women, children, cripples in the town.

>>If by true spirit you mean swallow whatever is said, I cannot do that. For instance what true light am is supposed to get from this verse:

9:111 GOD has bought from the believers their lives and their money in exchange for Paradise. Thus, they fight in the cause of GOD, willing to kill and get killed. Such is His truthful pledge in the Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran - and who fulfills His pledge better than GOD? You shall rejoice in making such an exchange. This is the greatest triumph.

Ans:Also see the next and earlier Ayats 9.112.Those who constantly turn to Allah in repentance, who ever worship Him, who praise Him, who go about the world to serve His cause, who bow down to Him, who prostrate themselves before Him, who enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil, and who keep the limits set by Allah. To such believers announce glad tidings. 9.113.After it has become clear that they are condemn to the Flaming Fire, it is not for the Prophet and those who believe to ask for the forgiveness of those who associate others with Allah in His divinity even if they be near of kin.

A few selected verses from the Qur'an are often misquoted to perpetuate the myth that Islam promotes violence, and exhorts its followers to kill those outside the pale of Islam.<<

What connection can you see between 111 and 112 and 113. 111 is Allah making a binding contract with believers to give them paradise for killing or getting killed 9:111 stands alone without any connection with the previous or following verses. In fact I should think that 9:112 is reinforcing what 111 says by giving the glad tidings for believers of being rewarded for fighting in Allah's cause. 113 is telling the believers they must not even ask for forgiveness of pagans, even if they be their kin i.e. they can be killed.

>>A few selected verses from the Qur'an are often misquoted to perpetuate the myth that Islam promotes violence, and exhorts its followers to kill those outside the pale of Islam.<<

Maqsood show me the misquotation with regard to 9:111. Can you rephrase it or show how by connecting to other verses in Sura 9 that it is not a contract to kill or get killed in Allah's way?

>>The following verses from Surah Taubah is very often quoted by critics of Islam, to show that Islam promotes violence, bloodshed and brutality:

"Kill the mushriqeen (pagans, polytheists, kuffar) where ever you find them."
[Al-Qur'an 9:5 and 111]

Critics of Islam actually quote this verse out of context. In order to understand the context, we need to read from verse 1 of this surah. It says that there was a peace treaty between the Muslims and the Mushriqs (pagans) of Makkah. This treaty was violated by the Mushriqs of Makkah<<

That the treaty was violated is the allegation of the Koran. It may be sufficient for Muslims but for us infidels it is not sufficient (why should we not suspect the motives of the Koran for after all the Koran keeps cursing and abusing us in so many of its verses. 2:89 The curse of Allah is on the disbelievers. 2:161 Lo! Those who disbelieve, and die while they are disbelievers, on them is the curse of allah and of angels and of men combined. We are also called unclean, blind, deaf and dumb in other verses.)

This particular treaty was first violated by the Muslims when they did not send back so-called believing women from Mecca who took refuge in Medina on the specious plea that the treaty included only men. The Meccans themselves never broke the treaty but a tribe allied with them attacked a tribe allied with the Muslims. Is this the crime for which the Koran is calling for all killing and maiming of pagans?

If all these verses have to do with something that happened in Arabia and have no relevance now why is it in the eternal Koran? The message of the verses is irrelevant.

>>"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is oft-forgiving, Most merciful."
[Al-Qur'an 9:5]

This verse is quoted during a battle.<<

The battle took place 1400 years ago. Why do you have this verse in the Koran. The Koran is not a book of history. What kind of silly advice is this. In war killing and seizing the enemy is what is always done and if they surrender and accept the victors rule they are allowed to carry on with their lives.

>>We know that America was once at war with Vietnam. Suppose the President of America or the General of the American Army told the American soldiers during the war: "Wherever you find the Vietnamese, kill them". Today if I say that the American President said, "Wherever you find Vietnamese, kill them" without giving the context, I will make him sound like a butcher. But if I quote him in context, that he said it during a war, it will sound very logical, as he was trying to boost the morale of the American soldiers during the war.<<

Exactly. The advice would be badly outdated just as those verses in Sura 9 are. So practically the whole of Sura 9 is obsolete, except as a historical curiosity.

>>Similarly in Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 5 the Qur'an says, "Kill the Mushriqs where ever you find them", during a battle to boost the morale of the Muslim soldiers. What the Qur'an is telling Muslim soldiers is, don't be afraid during battle; wherever you find the enemies kill them.<<

Maqsood, how many verses are you going to flush down the context drain? You have to haven't you. Otherwise the Koran is telling you to kill today's Mushriqs also.

>>Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 6 gives the answer to the allegation that Islam promotes violence, brutality and bloodshed. It says:

"If one amongst the pagans ask thee for asylum,grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure that is because they are men without knowledge."[Al-Qur'an 9:6]

The Qur'an not only says that a Mushriq seeking asylum during the battle should be granted refuge, but also that he should be escorted to a secure place. In the present international scenario, even a kind, peace-loving army General, during a battle, may let the enemy soldiers go free, if they want peace. But which army General will ever tell his soldiers, that if the enemy soldiers want peace during a battle, don't just let them go free, but also escort them to a place of security?<<

LOL. Of course they will have to be escorted to a secure place. An asylum seeker from the enemy side will be targeted by his former colleagues and marked for death. What do the Taliban do to people who they suspect are going to take refuge with the Americans? Verse 9:6 in no way changes the cruel instructions contained in 9:5

>>This is exactly what Allah (swt) says in the Glorious Qur'an to promote peace in the world. I will recommend you to read the whole chapter 9.<<

Read the following verses:

009.097 YUSUFALI: The Arabs of the desert are the worst in Unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger: But Allah is All-knowing, All-Wise.

009.101 Certain of the desert Arabs round about you are hypocrites, as well as (desert Arabs) among the Medina folk: they are obstinate in hypocrisy: thou knowest them not: We know them: twice shall We punish them: and in addition shall they be sent to a grievous penalty.

009.120 : It was not fitting for the people of Medina and the Bedouin Arabs of the neighbourhood, to refuse to follow Allah's Messenger, nor to prefer their own lives to his: because nothing could they suffer or do, but was reckoned to their credit as a deed of righteousness,- whether they suffered thirst, or fatigue, or hunger, in the cause of Allah, or trod paths to raise the ire of the Unbelievers, or received any injury whatever from an enemy: for Allah suffereth not the reward to be lost of those who do good;-

Here Allah is criticizing the Bedouin for not following the Prophet. The Koran is asking them to prefer the Prophet's life over their own. Is this not encouragement to war. Why is it not fitting for the people of Medina and the Bedouin not to follow the Prophet if they did not wish to. What rights did the Prophet assume over people who had welcomed him as a guest? He wants his hosts to even die for him. What context do you have to give a different meaning to this verse?

>>Even after reading the whole Koran how will it change the import of this verse inviting Muslims to kill or get killed and be rewarded handsomely for it.

It means read with context. <<

Where can I get the contexts from. All hadiths are suspect. The qudsi ones are no help. Ishaq and Tabari are also suspect according to many Muslim scholars.

>>Dont just remember few lines which are selected by some satans to misguide the humanity.<<

Maqsood remember 38:80 Allah tells Iblis: Lo! Thou art of those reprieved. And 38:82 where Iblis replies: Then by Thy might, I surely will beguile them every one.

What sense do you get from these two verses. Is not satan misguiding with Allah's connivance? Also read 15:32-43


Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

Comment on this item

Mark my comment as a response to To Maqsood: On matters pertaining to Sura 9, mostly. by Plato

Email me if someone replies to my comment

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

See recent outstanding comments.

Follow Daniel Pipes

Facebook   Twitter   RSS   Join Mailing List

All materials by Daniel Pipes on this site: © 1968-2023 Daniel Pipes. daniel.pipes@gmail.com and @DanielPipes

Support Daniel Pipes' work with a tax-deductible donation to the Middle East Forum.Daniel J. Pipes

(The MEF is a publicly supported, nonprofit organization under section 501(c)3 of the Internal Revenue Code.

Contributions are tax deductible to the full extent allowed by law. Tax-ID 23-774-9796, approved Apr. 27, 1998.

For more information, view our IRS letter of determination.)