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Karam: Muslims kill apostates. Kaffirs don't. Get a clue.

Reader comment on item: Obama, the Middle East and Islam - An Initial Assessment
in response to reader comment: Understanding Islam is a matter of faith deep faith in the heart!

Submitted by Plato (India), Apr 12, 2009 at 12:42

Karam, you wrote:

>>How many Muslims converted into other religions! And how many people from different religions, divinal and non-divinal embraced Islam?<<

A counter question: How many Muslims rejected Islam and went to Christianity, Buddhism, Atheism, deism?

>> If don't know , then first read about those who embrace Islam every now and then and here what they say about their previous religion and present religion!<<

I just googled 'apostates Islam' and came upon innumerable sites. Try it. Here is what the first one says (My comments in brackets, bold italics mine for emphasis):

We are ex-Muslims. Some of us were born and raised in Islam and some of us had converted to Islam at some moment in our lives. We were taught never to question the truth of Islam and to believe in Allah and his messenger with blind faith. We were told that Allah would forgive all sins but the sin of disbelief (Quran 4:48 and 4:116). But we committed the ultimate sin of thinking and questioned the belief that was imposed on us and we came to realize that far from being a religion of truth, Islam is a hoax, it is hallucination of a sick mind and nothing but lies and deceits. [For Muslims, unlike others, questioning Islam is a great sin and is punishable by death – Can you deny this Karam?]

What we believe:

Some of us have embraced other religions but most of us have simply left Islam without believing in any other religion. We believe in humanity. We believe that humans do not need to follow a religion to be good. All we need to follow is the Golden Rule. All we have to do is to treat others the way we expect to be treated. This is the essence of all the goodness. All good religious teachings stem from this eternal principle. This is the ultimate guidance humanity need. This is the Golden Rule. [Karam, understand the Golden Rule and you will not need any religion to be a good human being]

Why Mohammed was not a prophet:

One who claims to be a messenger of God is expected to live a saintly life. He must not be given to lust, he must not be a sexual pervert, and he must not be a rapist, a highway robber, a war criminal, a mass murderer or an assassin. One who claims to be a messenger of God must have a superior character. He must stand above the vices of the people of his time. Yet Muhammad's life is that of a gangster godfather. He raided merchant caravans, looted innocent people, massacred entire male populations and enslaved the women and children. He raped the women captured in war after killing their husbands and told his followers that it is okay to have sex with their captives and their "right hand possessions" (Quran 33:50) He assassinated those who criticized him and executed them when he came to power and became de facto despot of Arabia. Muhammad was bereft of human compassion. He was an obsessed man with his dreams of grandiosity and could not forgive those who stood in his way. Muhammad was a narcissist like Hitler, Saddam or Stalin. He was astute and knew how to manipulate people, but his emotional intelligence was less evolved than that of a 6-year-old child. He simply could not feel the pain of others. He brutally massacred thousands of innocent people and pillaged their wealth. His ambitions were big and as a narcissist he honestly believed he is entitled to do as he pleased and commit all sorts of crimes and his evil deeds are justi'fied. [Karam, if you take the trouble to study the original Islamic sources like the Koran, Hadith and Sira you will realize that what the author is saying about the Prophet's actions is essentially true. Your imams would have told you that all the abhorrent actions listed against the prophet were sanctified by Allah Himself and so Muhammad was blameless and they will quote verses from the Koran to prove their claim. Can you as a sane human being accept that a merciful Allah would allow His prophet to act inhumanely?]

Why Quran is not from God:

Muhammad produced no miracles and when pressed he claimed that his miracle is the Quran. Yet a cursory look at the Quran reveals that this book is full of errors. Quran is replete with scientific heresies, historic blunders, mathematical mistakes, logical absurdities, grammatical errors and ethical fallacies. It is badly compiled and it contradicts itself. There is nothing intelligent in this book let alone miraculous. Muhammad challenged people to produce a "Surah like it" or find an error therein, yet Muslims would kill anyone who dares to criticize it. In such a climate of hypocrisy and violence truth is the first casualty. [If you bring a surah like it to prove your point you are killed. What kind of challenge is this?]

What is our goal?

We are apostates of Islam. We denounce Islam as a false doctrine of hate and terror. However we are not against Muslims who are our own kin and relatives. We do not advocate hate and violence. Muslims are the main victims of Islam. [Karam, think about this statement with reference to yourself].Our goal is to educate them and let them see the truth. We are against Islam and not the Muslims. We strive to bring the Muslims into the fold of humanity. Eradicate Islam so our people can be liberated, so they can prosper and break away from the pillory of Islam. We would like to see Islamic countries dedicate more time to science and less time to Quran and Sharia. We would like to see them prosper and contribute to human civilization. We would like to see the draconian laws of Islam eliminated and people are treated humanely. We strive for freedom of beliefs, for equality of gender and for oneness of mankind.

Mankind's biggest challenge:

Today the humanity is facing a great danger. Islamic fundamentalism is on the rise and the hatred is brewing in the minds of millions of Muslims. This hatred must bec contained or there would be disastrous consequences. We believe that the education is the only answer. Muslim intellectuals must realize that Islam is a false doctrine and they must let the rest of Islamic world know the truth. Islam is a religion that thrives on the arrogant assumption that it is the most logical, the most scientific and the most perfect religion. While the fact is that it is the stupidest doctrine — the most backward and absurd belief. Once the truth about Islam becomes common knowledge, it will be weakened and the Islamic fanaticism will lose its fangs. Hundreds of billions of dollars are being expended to combat Islamic terrorism, yet no effort is made to contain the ideology behind this terrorism. It is our belief that Islamic terrorism will not be eliminated unless and until the ideology behind it is exposed and eradicated. This is what we intend to do. http://www.apostatesofislam.com/* * [Karam chances are you will not be able to access this site as Saudi Arabia heavily censors sites on religion. So I have given you at the bottom the list of apostates the website has provided, some whose sites may not be censored]

>>You can't discuss and criticize Islam without knowing the religion and study it, thoroughly and go deep into real meanings!<<

You are a real cool cat Karam. What you really mean is that no one has the right to criticize Islam because if one does he/she stands accused of not having made a deep study of Islam. How can you tell whether one has studied Islam deeply? What is your criteria for depth of knowledge of Islam? I have read the Koran several times by different translators, I have read almost all of Bukhari, I have read The Life of Muhammad', by Ibn Ishaq, I have read Ibn Kathir's The Life of the Pro phetMuhammad, I have read Malik Ibn Anas' Muwatta, Tabari's volumes on Muhammad, Ibn Saad's Kitab Al Tabaqat. oAbout the only original source missing is Waqidi's work.

These are as original as you can get. Can you show me better sources for the study of Islam?

>>Don't read ardti9cles about Islam written by some people who wrongly uderstand the religion!<<

I have listed the books I have read about Islam. The Koran is Allah's work, the other books are by very devout Muslims who lived during the earliest centuries of Islam. Allah could not have misunderstood Islam! Could the others I have listed have??

>>There are so many intrepretations. and all are not the same!<<

Karam, you have just admitted that Allah is a very poor communicator of Islam. The existence of so many interpretations means that Allah's words can be changed to suit the purpose of the interpreter. This gives the lie to Allah's claim that He has protected His last revelation from corruption.

>>Purity is the feelings of those who goes deep in the heart of the Holy Quran and the real Hadiths of Prophet and messenger of God Mohammed (BPUH ).<<

I can tell you what is at the heart of the Holy Koran – it is tawheed. Wikipedia can explain it better than me (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawhid ):

1.The Qur'an asserts the existence of a single and absolute truth that transcends the world; a unique and indivisible being, who is independent of the entire creation.[2] 2.The indivisibility of God implies the indivisibility of God's sovereignty which, in turn, leads to the concept of a just, moral and coherent universe, rather than an existential and moral chaos. 3.Similarly, the Qur'an rejects such ideas as the duality of God arguing that both good and evil generate from God's creative act and asserting that the evil forces have no power to create anything. 4.The Qur'an also rejects the concept of Trinity as prevalent in Christianity. 5.God in Islam is a universal god, rather than a local, tribal or parochial one -- is an absolute, who integrates all affirmative values and brooks no evil.[3]

…………6. To attribute divinity to a created entity is the only unpardonable sin mentioned in the Qur'an. [3] 7. Muslims believe that the entirety of the Islamic teaching rests on the principle of Tawhid.

Karam, can you find anything wrong with my assertion that this is the 'DEEP TRUTH' you are talking about? I will assume you do not and do a sort of tafsir on tawheed.

Read the first sentence again. It is only an assertion. It is not proven and there is no way you can prove it (try proving it if you can).

Does the second sentence make sense? How does the indivisibility of God lead to the concept of a just and moral universe? Where is the connection? It can lead to a coherent universe only if the creator wishes it to be coherent. Considering the upheavals we suffer from, coherence does not seem to be the wish of the creator.

The third sentence demolishes the claim of the second one about tawheed leading to a just and moral universe for it says, correctly (113: 1-3) evil also emanates from Allah. It also does not make sense to say that evil forces have no power to create anything and it seems to imply a duality in the creator. The evil He emanates cannot create anything making the good He emanates to have creative properties.

The fourth sentence rejects the trinity as it is against the principle of tawheed.

The fifth sentence is disproved by the fact that the Koran was revealed in Arabic and Allah claims in two verses that it is meant as a warning to the people around Mecca (the mother of cities):

006.092 YUSUFALI: And this is a Book which We have sent down, bringing blessings, and confirming (the revelations) which came before it: that thou mayest warn the mother of cities and all around her. Those who believe in the Hereafter believe in this (Book), and they are constant in guarding their prayers. [Repeated in 42:7]

Revealing His words only in Querishi Arabic is an act of parochialism: 012.002
YUSUFALI: We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an, in order that ye may learn wisdom.

The sixth sentence tells you what happens to you if you do not believe in tawheed. The punishment for this silly crime is detailed in excruciating detail in many verses. I will not quote them as these are the verses used to frighten all Muslim children and you must be familiar with them.

The last sentence again reiterates the centrality of tawheed to Islam.

>>I would call you brother in humanity, and request from you read books that I would suggest to you at a later stage, and hope you could find them in English!<<

I am a kaffir, Karam. Like other kaffirs, I do consider you as my brother in humanity but Allah will disown you if you consider me similarly:

004.144 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?

003.118 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom.

I await your offer of names of the books that will guide me to the path tawheed.

>>Thank and may Almighty Allah (God) guide you to the truth!<<

Ameen to that!

Regards

Plato

Submitting....

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Title Commenter Date Thread
1King Abdullah Peace Initiative! [220 words]Karam H AL-HashmiApr 13, 2009 16:10153821
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To Karam H AL-Hashmi [127 words]BenedictosApr 5, 2009 16:28151351
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Karam H AL-Hashmi [186 words]Benedictos MohamadApr 14, 2009 10:08151351
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w/response from Daniel Pipes
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Obama, the Middle East and Islam - An Initial Assessment [86 words]MannyFeb 3, 2009 14:48149748
Two tax dodgers picked by Obama? Try four [48 words]jennifer solisFeb 7, 2009 01:18149748
Obama, the Middle East and Islam - An Initial Assessment [96 words]Henry EfroymsonFeb 3, 2009 13:49149747
Response to Efroymson [43 words]ArlindaFeb 4, 2009 18:15149747
Respect is a two way street!!! [64 words]JaladhiFeb 5, 2009 10:22149747
Obama, the Middle East and Islam - An Initial Assessment [310 words]ArlindaFeb 3, 2009 13:45149746
Yes, Arlina [39 words]DonFeb 5, 2009 09:23149746
Arlinda and Don [13 words]WilksFeb 6, 2009 13:21149746
Obama, the Middle East and Islam - An Initial Assessment [47 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Mark GoldFeb 3, 2009 12:51149743
Obama, the Middle East and Islam - An Initial Assessment [102 words]LynnFeb 3, 2009 11:58149742
Not Surprising!!! [8 words]JaladhiFeb 5, 2009 10:26149742
thank you for the summary [87 words]sTsFeb 6, 2009 08:32149742
sTs, the "Taqiyya" man [114 words]InfidelFeb 6, 2009 17:10149742
That is false, STS [64 words]Straight_Talk_LuigiFeb 7, 2009 12:42149742
Dear Infidel [8 words]Straight_Talk_LuigiFeb 10, 2009 00:35149742
Elluhim [14 words]sTsFeb 10, 2009 00:40149742
sTs, This Is Going To Suprise You [71 words]AnneMFeb 10, 2009 07:40149742
Facts don't matter!!! [62 words]JaladhiFeb 10, 2009 17:12149742
sTs, stay with Allah [41 words]InfidelFeb 10, 2009 17:38149742
One BIG difference [67 words]jennifer solisFeb 10, 2009 22:33149742
I will surprise you [159 words]sTsFeb 11, 2009 00:33149742
Elohiym - Allah - same meaning [16 words]sTsFeb 11, 2009 00:44149742
Rab al-qamar and our dear samer [83 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 11, 2009 07:42149742
You DO surprise me, sTs [333 words]DonFeb 11, 2009 21:24149742
Jesus is no different than other prophets in his message [177 words]sTsFeb 12, 2009 00:14149742
Supersede all that came before [50 words]sTsFeb 12, 2009 02:15149742
Samer seems to agree that the Arabs in Palestine must be sent back to al-Hijaz too [72 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 12, 2009 06:59149742
sTs [54 words]btillyFeb 12, 2009 12:06149742
Jesus preached love and peace and Mo's message was.... [64 words]JaladhiFeb 12, 2009 17:44149742
So... [141 words]DonFeb 12, 2009 19:07149742
Our dear samer and the word FRQN and Jesus in the Qur'an [342 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 12, 2009 19:42149742
2The Arabic word Istislam [471 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 14, 2009 08:29149742
we will foillow [12 words]taniaFeb 14, 2009 12:45149742
The corrupted Qur'an and more evidence [436 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 15, 2009 17:02149742
It seems that the islamic sources tell us that Allah pryas too but the question is to whom? [85 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 15, 2009 17:09149742
where does it say that [171 words]skulldragFeb 15, 2009 23:01149742
that was rubbish [342 words]Keith WilliamsFeb 15, 2009 23:09149742
Eloi is in the Bible [125 words]Keith WilliamsFeb 15, 2009 23:14149742
cool, sign me up [17 words]Keith WilliamsFeb 15, 2009 23:17149742
prophets were not all jews [91 words]Keith WilliamsFeb 16, 2009 00:49149742
dhimmi: About Islam, [25 words]Deen MuhammedFeb 16, 2009 10:42149742
Allah - Mo's alterego!! [36 words]JaladhiFeb 16, 2009 17:16149742
common themes in all religions [1017 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanFeb 16, 2009 19:28149742
You said it right, Don!!! [26 words]JaladhiFeb 16, 2009 19:48149742
skulldrag, about Allah [112 words]InfidelFeb 16, 2009 21:39149742
ROTFL Pakistani Arabic by no other than the so called convert [372 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 17, 2009 07:18149742
Our dear Deen Muhammad another victim of Arabian imperialism [74 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 17, 2009 07:25149742
1Allah prays but the real question is: to whom does Allah pray? [161 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 17, 2009 07:55149742
dhimmi: Your deragatory remarks are infuriating against God Al-Mighty (Allah) [95 words]Earl BellmannFeb 17, 2009 11:16149742
Say what, Mr. Bellmann? [159 words]DonFeb 17, 2009 18:51149742
Jesus also warned us [5 words]Straight_Talk_LuigiFeb 17, 2009 21:05149742
Another tablighee and this time our dear The Earl and more fantasy [384 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 18, 2009 07:00149742
Two kinds of Muslims? [195 words]Larry B.Feb 18, 2009 14:13149742
sTs= I agree with you on Muhammed, but NOT on Abraham [42 words]charlie dunnFeb 18, 2009 14:31149742
dhimmi: You ... do NOT understand Arabic or Quran [70 words]Deen MuhammedFeb 18, 2009 15:09149742
as a dhimmi, [46 words]Deen MuhammedFeb 18, 2009 15:16149742
Strike the band: Our dear convert discovered Syriac [344 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 18, 2009 18:00149742
Oh and the topos for today is; "technically" [196 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 18, 2009 18:13149742
rites and rituals don't cut it [271 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanFeb 19, 2009 00:16149742
wonderful Muslim logic [158 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanFeb 19, 2009 00:32149742
Our dear Deen Muhammad is lost in translation and the Qur'an says that Allah and his angels pray to Muhammad [219 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 19, 2009 07:24149742
Islamic delusions and our dear deen Muhammad and his imaginary friend the Earl [163 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 19, 2009 07:32149742
KEITH Muhammad was no prophet [69 words]btillyFeb 19, 2009 10:35149742
1Touche [20 words]SimonFeb 20, 2009 00:12149742
Sorry, Charlie. Old Moe Was NOT A Prophet. [79 words]orange yonasonFeb 20, 2009 01:56149742
way off base [21 words]Keith WilliamsFeb 20, 2009 18:26149742
well said, to each his own [97 words]Keith WilliamsFeb 20, 2009 18:32149742
2Islam and mind control [461 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 21, 2009 07:53149742
oh and you should really put up or... oh, you know the rest [46 words]Keith WilliamsFeb 22, 2009 22:11149742
where in Qur'an does it say that... [18 words]Keith WilliamsFeb 22, 2009 22:22149742
Sorry to disappoint you but you are wrong. [86 words]Keith WilliamsFeb 22, 2009 22:35149742
wrong again and, oh more fantasy from dhimmi [115 words]Keith WilliamsFeb 22, 2009 22:56149742
Our dear Keith needs to stick to urdu [186 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 24, 2009 07:02149742
our dear convert just discovered Syriac [196 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 24, 2009 07:11149742
Oh and the "technically" topos revisited and the Muslim ego [52 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 24, 2009 07:15149742
Our dear Keith needs to stick to urdu [205 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 24, 2009 07:45149742
no Keith, you are deceived [1085 words]kid berthaFeb 24, 2009 10:19149742
yesus is prophet [44 words]barry soetoroFeb 25, 2009 07:19149742
i am not deceived [103 words]Keith WilliamsFeb 25, 2009 21:27149742
dhimmi no more and ignorance and pride [418 words]Keith WilliamsFeb 25, 2009 21:42149742
Our dear the so called convert discover Syriac part deux [364 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 28, 2009 07:09149742
our dear convert just discovered Syriac part trois and this time his diatribes [556 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 28, 2009 07:23149742
Another Barry Soetoro- ? [104 words]Johnny G GoodeFeb 28, 2009 18:19149742
fragile egos [739 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanFeb 28, 2009 22:06149742
Muslims prayer contradicting the Qur2an & Mohamad nver went to heaven [301 words]Jurist Benedictos Mohamad AliMar 1, 2009 11:45149742
Our dear Keith and literary topoi and the source behind the source [398 words]dhimmi no moreMar 2, 2009 07:46149742
Stop already, [418 words]Abdullah Al HashimiMar 3, 2009 05:08149742
Islam and paganism and our dear the "convert" [169 words]dhimmi no moreMar 3, 2009 07:28149742
Our dear Abd Allah flunks his class in Arabic grammar and the state of poor education in the arab world [167 words]dhimmi no moreMar 4, 2009 08:11149742
Muslim fantasies and superstition!! [252 words]JaladhiMar 4, 2009 16:31149742
not bending over [167 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanMar 5, 2009 07:02149742
6Muslims pray to Muhammad when they say sala allahu 3alyhi wa salam [670 words]dhimmi no moreMar 5, 2009 07:38149742
jesus loves him some jihad [29 words]homerule strategiesMar 16, 2009 17:39149742
Homerule loves him some falsehoods. [212 words]LynnMar 16, 2009 20:05149742
HOMERULE STATEGIES [93 words]btillyMar 17, 2009 15:55149742
Divine? [108 words]Ibn KhaldunApr 7, 2009 20:11149742
1Islam [52 words]SamuelApr 26, 2009 08:03149742
1mind control [123 words]SamuelApr 26, 2009 08:24149742
1whats your point [51 words]SamuelApr 27, 2009 10:38149742
prophet [37 words]SamuelApr 27, 2009 10:50149742
think for themselves [36 words]SamuelApr 27, 2009 10:56149742
Muslims do not pray to Mohamed they pray on Mohamed SAW [174 words]WadoodJan 28, 2010 03:28149742
Our dear Wadood but the Qur'an a book that you cannot read in Arabic says that Allah and his angels pray to Muhammad! So much for the bogus tawheed. For the readers read and enjoy [199 words]dhimmi no moreJan 28, 2010 18:34149742
you don't know the meaning of sala [71 words]arabic is the bestJan 23, 2011 05:06149742
1Another victim of Arabian imperialism [149 words]dhimmi no moreJan 24, 2011 06:16149742
you don't know the meaning of sala [104 words]arabic is the bestJan 26, 2011 08:18149742
1Another victim of the imperialism of the Arabs [230 words]dhimmi no moreJan 26, 2011 18:01149742
you don't know the meaning of salat [51 words]arabic is the bestJan 29, 2011 10:38149742
2Teaching Arabic to one tablighee at a time [508 words]dhimmi no moreJan 30, 2011 06:39149742
you don't know the meaning of salaة [175 words]arabic is the bestFeb 1, 2011 15:47149742
2More islamic comedy and self hate [446 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 3, 2011 06:49149742
1Think AND study BEFORE you speak !! [588 words]Nubia OneMar 26, 2011 11:32149742
1Teaching Arabic to one tablighee at a time [79 words]dhimmi no moreMar 27, 2011 17:57149742
5Another victim of Arabian imperialism [1681 words]dhimmi no moreMar 29, 2011 08:14149742
dear Dhimmi [225 words]moMay 11, 2011 02:34149742
1Our dear Mo is a victim of Arabian imperialism and where is your evidence that 20,000 Americans convert to islam every year and most of them are women? [709 words]dhimmi no moreMay 13, 2011 07:17149742
Our dear Mo is jealous that I know my Arabic! Right our dear mo? [270 words]dhimmi no moreMay 13, 2011 13:45149742
Our dear Mo and gem time and Christian Arabs and his masters the arabs and ayat al-sayf or the sword verse [194 words]dhimmi no moreMay 13, 2011 13:59149742
Dhimmi- Arab Evangelical [406 words]moMay 15, 2011 15:51149742
1Our dear mo the victim of Arabian imperialism cannot refute my claims and why is that our dear mo? [989 words]dhimmi no moreMay 16, 2011 07:05149742
Arab evanglist [222 words]moMay 28, 2011 03:48149742
1Our dear mo is saying that Allah is the moon god astaghfirullah! I smell a fatwa here [1312 words]dhimmi no moreMay 29, 2011 07:19149742
3The goose and the gander and islamic hypocrisy [269 words]dhimmi no moreMay 29, 2011 07:54149742
4Cherry picking time and the moon god [131 words]dhimmi no moreMay 30, 2011 13:03149742
2more cherry picking and al-komidya al-islamiyya goes on and on [102 words]dhimmi no moreMay 30, 2011 13:09149742
3Pakistanis and other wannabe Arabs [109 words]dhimmi no moreMay 30, 2011 13:16149742
just clear your mind from ambush created by your limited sacred thoughts [70 words]A personMar 12, 2012 07:03149742
Refuting the allegation that Allah prays [14 words]Ibn AnwarApr 2, 2012 23:22149742
Books coming out soon [117 words]Robert Louis Tegenkamp, Th.DAug 7, 2012 14:39149742
Ignorance kills [480 words]SdSep 24, 2013 13:02149742

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