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Karam: Muslims kill apostates. Kaffirs don't. Get a clue.

Reader comment on item: Obama, the Middle East and Islam - An Initial Assessment
in response to reader comment: Understanding Islam is a matter of faith deep faith in the heart!

Submitted by Plato (India), Apr 12, 2009 at 12:42

Karam, you wrote:

>>How many Muslims converted into other religions! And how many people from different religions, divinal and non-divinal embraced Islam?<<

A counter question: How many Muslims rejected Islam and went to Christianity, Buddhism, Atheism, deism?

>> If don't know , then first read about those who embrace Islam every now and then and here what they say about their previous religion and present religion!<<

I just googled 'apostates Islam' and came upon innumerable sites. Try it. Here is what the first one says (My comments in brackets, bold italics mine for emphasis):

We are ex-Muslims. Some of us were born and raised in Islam and some of us had converted to Islam at some moment in our lives. We were taught never to question the truth of Islam and to believe in Allah and his messenger with blind faith. We were told that Allah would forgive all sins but the sin of disbelief (Quran 4:48 and 4:116). But we committed the ultimate sin of thinking and questioned the belief that was imposed on us and we came to realize that far from being a religion of truth, Islam is a hoax, it is hallucination of a sick mind and nothing but lies and deceits. [For Muslims, unlike others, questioning Islam is a great sin and is punishable by death – Can you deny this Karam?]

What we believe:

Some of us have embraced other religions but most of us have simply left Islam without believing in any other religion. We believe in humanity. We believe that humans do not need to follow a religion to be good. All we need to follow is the Golden Rule. All we have to do is to treat others the way we expect to be treated. This is the essence of all the goodness. All good religious teachings stem from this eternal principle. This is the ultimate guidance humanity need. This is the Golden Rule. [Karam, understand the Golden Rule and you will not need any religion to be a good human being]

Why Mohammed was not a prophet:

One who claims to be a messenger of God is expected to live a saintly life. He must not be given to lust, he must not be a sexual pervert, and he must not be a rapist, a highway robber, a war criminal, a mass murderer or an assassin. One who claims to be a messenger of God must have a superior character. He must stand above the vices of the people of his time. Yet Muhammad's life is that of a gangster godfather. He raided merchant caravans, looted innocent people, massacred entire male populations and enslaved the women and children. He raped the women captured in war after killing their husbands and told his followers that it is okay to have sex with their captives and their "right hand possessions" (Quran 33:50) He assassinated those who criticized him and executed them when he came to power and became de facto despot of Arabia. Muhammad was bereft of human compassion. He was an obsessed man with his dreams of grandiosity and could not forgive those who stood in his way. Muhammad was a narcissist like Hitler, Saddam or Stalin. He was astute and knew how to manipulate people, but his emotional intelligence was less evolved than that of a 6-year-old child. He simply could not feel the pain of others. He brutally massacred thousands of innocent people and pillaged their wealth. His ambitions were big and as a narcissist he honestly believed he is entitled to do as he pleased and commit all sorts of crimes and his evil deeds are justi'fied. [Karam, if you take the trouble to study the original Islamic sources like the Koran, Hadith and Sira you will realize that what the author is saying about the Prophet's actions is essentially true. Your imams would have told you that all the abhorrent actions listed against the prophet were sanctified by Allah Himself and so Muhammad was blameless and they will quote verses from the Koran to prove their claim. Can you as a sane human being accept that a merciful Allah would allow His prophet to act inhumanely?]

Why Quran is not from God:

Muhammad produced no miracles and when pressed he claimed that his miracle is the Quran. Yet a cursory look at the Quran reveals that this book is full of errors. Quran is replete with scientific heresies, historic blunders, mathematical mistakes, logical absurdities, grammatical errors and ethical fallacies. It is badly compiled and it contradicts itself. There is nothing intelligent in this book let alone miraculous. Muhammad challenged people to produce a "Surah like it" or find an error therein, yet Muslims would kill anyone who dares to criticize it. In such a climate of hypocrisy and violence truth is the first casualty. [If you bring a surah like it to prove your point you are killed. What kind of challenge is this?]

What is our goal?

We are apostates of Islam. We denounce Islam as a false doctrine of hate and terror. However we are not against Muslims who are our own kin and relatives. We do not advocate hate and violence. Muslims are the main victims of Islam. [Karam, think about this statement with reference to yourself].Our goal is to educate them and let them see the truth. We are against Islam and not the Muslims. We strive to bring the Muslims into the fold of humanity. Eradicate Islam so our people can be liberated, so they can prosper and break away from the pillory of Islam. We would like to see Islamic countries dedicate more time to science and less time to Quran and Sharia. We would like to see them prosper and contribute to human civilization. We would like to see the draconian laws of Islam eliminated and people are treated humanely. We strive for freedom of beliefs, for equality of gender and for oneness of mankind.

Mankind's biggest challenge:

Today the humanity is facing a great danger. Islamic fundamentalism is on the rise and the hatred is brewing in the minds of millions of Muslims. This hatred must bec contained or there would be disastrous consequences. We believe that the education is the only answer. Muslim intellectuals must realize that Islam is a false doctrine and they must let the rest of Islamic world know the truth. Islam is a religion that thrives on the arrogant assumption that it is the most logical, the most scientific and the most perfect religion. While the fact is that it is the stupidest doctrine — the most backward and absurd belief. Once the truth about Islam becomes common knowledge, it will be weakened and the Islamic fanaticism will lose its fangs. Hundreds of billions of dollars are being expended to combat Islamic terrorism, yet no effort is made to contain the ideology behind this terrorism. It is our belief that Islamic terrorism will not be eliminated unless and until the ideology behind it is exposed and eradicated. This is what we intend to do. http://www.apostatesofislam.com/* * [Karam chances are you will not be able to access this site as Saudi Arabia heavily censors sites on religion. So I have given you at the bottom the list of apostates the website has provided, some whose sites may not be censored]

>>You can't discuss and criticize Islam without knowing the religion and study it, thoroughly and go deep into real meanings!<<

You are a real cool cat Karam. What you really mean is that no one has the right to criticize Islam because if one does he/she stands accused of not having made a deep study of Islam. How can you tell whether one has studied Islam deeply? What is your criteria for depth of knowledge of Islam? I have read the Koran several times by different translators, I have read almost all of Bukhari, I have read The Life of Muhammad', by Ibn Ishaq, I have read Ibn Kathir's The Life of the Pro phetMuhammad, I have read Malik Ibn Anas' Muwatta, Tabari's volumes on Muhammad, Ibn Saad's Kitab Al Tabaqat. oAbout the only original source missing is Waqidi's work.

These are as original as you can get. Can you show me better sources for the study of Islam?

>>Don't read ardti9cles about Islam written by some people who wrongly uderstand the religion!<<

I have listed the books I have read about Islam. The Koran is Allah's work, the other books are by very devout Muslims who lived during the earliest centuries of Islam. Allah could not have misunderstood Islam! Could the others I have listed have??

>>There are so many intrepretations. and all are not the same!<<

Karam, you have just admitted that Allah is a very poor communicator of Islam. The existence of so many interpretations means that Allah's words can be changed to suit the purpose of the interpreter. This gives the lie to Allah's claim that He has protected His last revelation from corruption.

>>Purity is the feelings of those who goes deep in the heart of the Holy Quran and the real Hadiths of Prophet and messenger of God Mohammed (BPUH ).<<

I can tell you what is at the heart of the Holy Koran – it is tawheed. Wikipedia can explain it better than me (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawhid ):

1.The Qur'an asserts the existence of a single and absolute truth that transcends the world; a unique and indivisible being, who is independent of the entire creation.[2] 2.The indivisibility of God implies the indivisibility of God's sovereignty which, in turn, leads to the concept of a just, moral and coherent universe, rather than an existential and moral chaos. 3.Similarly, the Qur'an rejects such ideas as the duality of God arguing that both good and evil generate from God's creative act and asserting that the evil forces have no power to create anything. 4.The Qur'an also rejects the concept of Trinity as prevalent in Christianity. 5.God in Islam is a universal god, rather than a local, tribal or parochial one -- is an absolute, who integrates all affirmative values and brooks no evil.[3]

…………6. To attribute divinity to a created entity is the only unpardonable sin mentioned in the Qur'an. [3] 7. Muslims believe that the entirety of the Islamic teaching rests on the principle of Tawhid.

Karam, can you find anything wrong with my assertion that this is the 'DEEP TRUTH' you are talking about? I will assume you do not and do a sort of tafsir on tawheed.

Read the first sentence again. It is only an assertion. It is not proven and there is no way you can prove it (try proving it if you can).

Does the second sentence make sense? How does the indivisibility of God lead to the concept of a just and moral universe? Where is the connection? It can lead to a coherent universe only if the creator wishes it to be coherent. Considering the upheavals we suffer from, coherence does not seem to be the wish of the creator.

The third sentence demolishes the claim of the second one about tawheed leading to a just and moral universe for it says, correctly (113: 1-3) evil also emanates from Allah. It also does not make sense to say that evil forces have no power to create anything and it seems to imply a duality in the creator. The evil He emanates cannot create anything making the good He emanates to have creative properties.

The fourth sentence rejects the trinity as it is against the principle of tawheed.

The fifth sentence is disproved by the fact that the Koran was revealed in Arabic and Allah claims in two verses that it is meant as a warning to the people around Mecca (the mother of cities):

006.092 YUSUFALI: And this is a Book which We have sent down, bringing blessings, and confirming (the revelations) which came before it: that thou mayest warn the mother of cities and all around her. Those who believe in the Hereafter believe in this (Book), and they are constant in guarding their prayers. [Repeated in 42:7]

Revealing His words only in Querishi Arabic is an act of parochialism: 012.002
YUSUFALI: We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an, in order that ye may learn wisdom.

The sixth sentence tells you what happens to you if you do not believe in tawheed. The punishment for this silly crime is detailed in excruciating detail in many verses. I will not quote them as these are the verses used to frighten all Muslim children and you must be familiar with them.

The last sentence again reiterates the centrality of tawheed to Islam.

>>I would call you brother in humanity, and request from you read books that I would suggest to you at a later stage, and hope you could find them in English!<<

I am a kaffir, Karam. Like other kaffirs, I do consider you as my brother in humanity but Allah will disown you if you consider me similarly:

004.144 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?

003.118 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom.

I await your offer of names of the books that will guide me to the path tawheed.

>>Thank and may Almighty Allah (God) guide you to the truth!<<

Ameen to that!

Regards

Plato

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