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Good Muslims vs. Bad Muslims: Reply To Pat on Reciprocity

Reader comment on item: Shoeless George Bush Discusses Islam
in response to reader comment: Where is the reciprocity?

Submitted by Chris G. (United States), Jul 4, 2007 at 18:22

Thanks for responding Pat with a well written reply. You ask very good and important questions and I will attempt to answer them to the best of my abilities. I do not claim I am 100% correct but hopefully I can give some food for thought on a new direction that our foreign policy can take while at the same time insuring our national security.

At the beginning of your response you mention the two contrasting views from Afghani imams on suicide bombing. It is actually quite easy to tell the two apart because you basically give the perfect example: You simply listen to what they say. Its quite easy to pick out the radicals by simply listening to the sermons at their mosques and by what they teach at their madrassas (Islamic schools).

Within modern Islamic theology there is some debate as to whether or not suicide bombing is allowed against a military target. However, those who claim it is allowed against civilian targets have absolutely no basis in ANY Islamic theology. In my research, when I run across radicals on the internet who claim it is justified, I always challenge them with this: "Show me ANYWHERE in the Qu'ran or ANY Hadith that allows you to take the lives of women and children." There is not a single verse in the Qu'ran or Hadiths that directly says that women and children can be killed. The only exception is if those women or children take up arms.

What is even worse to Islam however is that most of those they kill are fellow Muslims. Some will say, "They are apostates and are no longer Muslims because they support the kafr (infidel) occupiers." This is known as declaring takfir on another Muslim and is something that is never to be done lightly. You simply ask these extremists, "Do you know the hearts of those Muslims you slaughter? Are not the children you murder innocent in heart and mind? Do you think they know politics? Do you think that you are all knowing like Allah? How dare you put yourself on the same level as Allah! Go and pray to Allah for mercy and redeem yourself through love and compassion if you do not wish hellfire as the worst of sinners- a munafiqūn (hypocrite)."

As for as the duty of Muslims to conduct Jihad. This again is not cut and dry as there are many disagreements on what Jihad is. There is no doubt whatsoever for any Muslim that defensive Jihad is absolutely mandatory. Even the Geneva convention allows for any sovereign nation to defend itself against an occupier. This however gets muddy when a war turns into an insurgency. However the belief in eternal offensive Jihad is one that is not universally accepted. The main spread of Islam was not done during the lifetime of Mohammed, but rather during the reigns of succeeding Caliphs. Mohammed's primary goal was the conquest of Arabia which consisted of Pagan, Christian, Sibian, and Jewish tribes. Nevertheless after his death, Islam was spread and in much of the case, it was by the sword. Even so, it is very clear in Islam that the religion can not be forced upon someone. Below is a huge list of Ayas from the Quran that support this (just skim over this as it is long):

  • * 2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.
  • * 16:82 But if they turn away from you, (O Prophet remember that) your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message (entrusted to you).
  • * 6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you (of your own choice) a guardian over them.
  • * 4:79, 80 (Say to everyone of them,) 'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have (O Prophet) sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."
  • * 11:28 (Noah to his people) He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If 1 act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it?°
  • * 17:53, 54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner (unto those who do not share their beliefs). Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you (Unto men O Prophet) with power to determine their Faith.
  • * 21:107 to 109 (O Prophet?) 'We have not sent you except to be a mercy to all mankind:" Declare, "Verily, what is revealed to me is this, your God is the only One God, so is it not up to you to bow down to Him?' But if they turn away then say, "I have delivered the Truth in a manner clear to one and all, and I know not whether the promised hour (of Judgment) is near or far."
  • * 22:67 To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites (of prayer) which they observe; therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord (since that is the main objective of religion). You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, (then say,) `God best knows (the value of) what you do."
  • * 88:21, 22; also see 24:54 And so, (O Prophet!) exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.
  • * 48:28 He it is Who has sent forth His Messenger with the (task of spreading) Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to the end that tie make it prevail over every (false) religion, and none can bear witness to the Truth as God does.
  • * 36:16, 17 (Three Messengers to their people)Said (the Messengers), "Our Sustainer knows that we have indeed been sent unto you, but we are not bound to more than clearly deliver the Message entrusted to us.'
  • * 39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.
  • * 42:6, 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ....
  • * 64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.
  • * 67:25, 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."
  • * 60:8 Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
  • * 60:9 Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.

Now however, a Wahhabi extremist scholar will dismiss many of the above verses through the concept of "abrogation" in which later "Verses of the Sword" overrule earlier verses that say good things about Jews and Christians. The idea of abrogation is not universally accepted by Muslim scholars and there is vast disagreement even amongst those who accept abrogation over which verses are replaced (and thus nullified) and which are not. There is only one Hadith, to my knowledge, that supports abrogation. The main argument against abrogation is why any of the earlier verses were even allowed into the Qu'ran if they are essentially meaningless. What you will find is that within some branches of Sunni Madhaabs (schools of thought) such as many Hanafi and Sufi scholars, you will find interpretations based upon historical context rather then on blindly following verses out of context to what was going on at that time. For example Surah 8 was revealed during the battle of Badr. Surah 47 was reveled during the period in which the Muslims were under threat of extinction by the then polytheist Meccans.

In addition often verses are quoted from the Qu'ran out of context such as quoting one verse that sounds very militant, but not quoting the verses around it that order Muslims to respect and not to break peace treaties with non-believers.
An example is quoting Surah 9:5, but leaving out 9:4 and 9:6 which provide important context that mandates the respect of peace treaties and those who seek asylum. Such verses are much more difficult to wipe away using the theory of abrogation because they are revealed at the same time as Surah 9:5 which is considered to be one of the "verses of the sword".

When it comes to the topic of Dhimmitude, again things get a bit complicated and not all that clear cut.
There exists copies of treaties made during Mohammed's life that show an enormous range of rights for non-believers such as the treaty that exists at St. Catherine's Cathedral on Mount Sinai.
A translation of the treaty reads:

This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.
Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.
No compulsion is to be on them.
Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.
No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses.
Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.
No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.
The Muslims are to fight for them.
If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.
Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.
No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).

To this day, Muslims respect St. Catherine's and have never touched it during all the wars in that region because of the protection it was granted by Mohammed. The Qu'ran supports the section of that treaty about Christian women when it says:

Qur'an 5:5
This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you.
The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them.
(Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers
but chaste women among the People of the Book revealed before your time
when ye give them their due dowers
and desire chastity not lewdness nor secret intrigues.
If anyone rejects faith fruitless is his work
and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good)..

This was in part due to the Quran ayas (verses) and verses in hadiths that show that Mohammed respected Jews and Christians who were pious and righteous people which is why it is forbidden to kill the clergy of other faiths during war unless they openly take up arms. In addition, the Torah and Bible can not be burned by Muslims as they respect the books as having "some" truths in them while they believe other parts were corrupted over time.
However.... all is not roses.... All through Islamic history indeed many atrocities were committed in the name of Islam. There are also some Hadiths which i can not refute because I am not trained enough in Islamic theology and thus do not consider myself an Islamic scholar. However from a historical perspective if you look at how Dhimmis were treated by various Islamic empires and nations, you will find a huge range of treatment ranging from highly oppressive all the way to extremely tolerant. Even within the Ottoman Empire for example, you will find different eras in which at times non-Muslims were oppressed while at other times their was enormous tolerance for those of other faiths. The same goes for India (the historical India not modern India), Indonesia, Iran, the nations of North Africa, etc...
For example Indonesia, the largest Muslim country in the world (and where I once lived), has generally had a very tolerant mix of religions in which you find many Muslims who still practice ancient Hindu traditions that they believe are compatible with Islam due to the good morality stories that they transmit. You have some of the largest Buddhist temples in the world such as the beautiful temples of Borobadur and Prambanan. These have never been attacked by Indonesian Muslims.
You mention that ancient site in Yemen that was attacked. But first ask yourself why it was not destroyed in the past by Muslims?
This extremist strain of Islam that we see today, while indeed based in Islam, is primarily a product of radical Islamic movements that began during colonialist and post-colonialist eras of Middle Eastern and South West Asian history. This movement really gained momentum with the radical Salafi movement led by Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab in the mid 1700's. It was his movement that was protected and embraced by the Arabian House of Saud that rules Saudi Arabia today. While the Wahhabist movement (who refer to themselves as Salafis) does have some theological roots in such scholars as Ibn Tammiyah, its weakness is that they do not follow any one particular school of Islamic thought (madhhabs). While they are primarily influenced by the Hanabali madhhab, they tend to pick and choose studies from radical scholars at various points of history without studying an unbroken line of teachings in order to learn what the majority rulings were during various points in Islamic history. Because of this they tend to custom tailor their Islamic theology to their modern political beliefs, their militant goal of an united Islam under a Salafi Caliphate and their conspiracy theories about Jews.

It is this strain of Islam that you see plastered all over the news and whose teachings are translated into English and widely used on almost every neoconservative site and by almost every neoconservative "self-proclaimed" expert on Islam. Robert Spencer's site, "Jihad Watch" is a prime example. What is ironic is that they tend to completely ignore moderate traditional scholars who disagree with these extremists. They also refuse to publish the counter-arguments sent to them by anti-extremist Islamic scholars.
At least on this site, I have not been censored so far and I applaud the site's editors for that.

You ask where the voices are of these moderate Muslim leaders speaking out against terrorists and extremism. Their voice are everywhere, but as I mentioned in my post, the media is almost completely ignoring them. Peaceful Muslims are boring. They do not fall in line with the perception that most Americans have of Muslims and they do not draw viewers. Fear is what draws viewers regardless of what the subject is. Next time you watch CNN or FOX news, I recommend keeping a score sheet on the number of stories that make you feel worried or fearful whether they be about getting fat, getting cancer, crime, terrorism, global warming, etc... You will quickly see what I'm talking about.
As for who these Muslim leaders are around the world speaking out against terrorism…. I got so many references that I don't know where to start and I'm sure I'll leave out many, but here are a few (not including the local Imams and scholars I work with):

1. Shaykh Hamza Yusuf (Zaytuna Foundation and one of America's most respected Islamic scholars)
2. Imam Zaid Shakir (Zaytuna Foundation)
3. Shaykh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani (Naqshbandi-Haqqani Sufi Order of America)
4. Shaykh Abdul Haqq (Naqshbandi-Haqqani Sufi Order of America)
5. Shaykh Nuh Keller (One of America's top Islamic scholars trained at al-Azhar, Cairo (one of the oldest and most respected islamic schools in the world).
6. Shaykh Fetullah Gulen (Turkey's most popular Islamic leader and student of Said Nursi. All of his followers and Imams are heavily against extremism).
7. All of the Islamic scholars on the The Fiqh Council of North America .
8. Yusuf Islam (Formerly known as Cat Stevens. He's not really a scholar but is looked up to by many young Muslims.)
9. Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani (North American High Council and publisher of various essays on progressive Islam)
10. Dr. A. Zahoor and Dr. Z. Haq (Indian Islamic historians who have authored several books on Islam)
11. Joseph E. B. Lumbard (American Islamic scholar and author on Islam)
12. Shaykh Dr. Zaki Badawi (Principle of the Muslim College in London, UK)
13. Shaykh Daoud Rosser-Owen (Studied fiq'h and tariqah in Malaysia and Turkey)
14. Seyyed Hossein Nasr (Iranian Islamic scholar now teaching at George Washington University)
15. Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi (Perhaps the world's most respected Sunni leader- Grand Imam of the Al-Azhar school in Cairo, one of the oldest and most prestigious Islamic schools in the world. He has consistently spoken out strongly against terrorism and opposed views of the popular Islamist Yusuf al-Qaradawi).
16. Abdel-Mo'tei Bayyoumi (Scholar at the Al-Azhar Research Academy, Egypt).
17. Grand Mufti Mustafa Ceric (Grand Mufti of Bosnia)

etc... etc....
If you want a much longer list, below are a ton of fatwas issued by prominent Islamic scholars against terrorism and extremism here:


Now is everything cut and dry? No. Many Muslims contradict themselves by being against bombings in Europe and America and yet supporting suicide bombings against Israeli civilians. Not all do, but its not uncommon. Some scholars also make a distinction between a terrorist and a Muslim on Jihad who is fighting according to Islamic rules of Jihad and only attacks enemy soldiers in a war of defense. So for example they would not call an Iraqi group who only attacks American soldiers as terrorists as long as they do not purposefully or carelessly endanger the lives of civilians.

Furthermore I do not advocate being naive about the goal of a great number of Muslims to bring Shariat law into non-Muslim nations by using democracy as their tool. This wouldn't happen in America due to immigration patterns and projected growth of Islam in America. However in Europe, this is a reality for some countries and their politicians need to stop being so naive about that. They need to seriously look at creative ways of nipping that problem in the bud such as by curbing immigration, passing laws making it easier to deport militant immigrants, and establish Islamic counter-extremist schools that show how most secular laws are in accordance with moderate interpretations of the Shariat or that they are at least "in the spirit of Shariat law." European Muslim extremists need to be educated in how the very laws they seek to destroy are what give them the freedom to voice their religious beliefs.

I am not ignorant of the Islamic practice of Taqiyah however with moderate traditional Muslims, it is ONLY applied to save one's life or the lives of fellow Muslims. Unfortunately Qutb'ist scholars of the Islamic Brotherhood, Al-Qaeda, and Shi'a extremists have expanded this concept to mean deception in all forms including in the role of committing a terrorist attack by eating pork, drinking alcohol, and basically pretending to be a sinful non-believer. It is an easy concept to refute theologically in Islam. However aside from Islamic conferences here and there and in Islamic theological web sites that bore the average Muslim, such beliefs are not challenged. This is where the US and European governments could do an enormous amount of counter-propaganda against such illegitimate ideologies with the support of respected traditional scholars.

If we do not do more to fight against this type of extremist theology using traditional Islamic theology to counter it, we will see MANY more terrorists like those doctors who launched those attacks in England. You do not have to be uneducated to be brain washed. Do you remember the Heaven's Gate Cult that killed themselves in California? Most of their members were highly educated and included former doctors and lawyers who went as far as castrating themselves for the sake of purifying their soul. They then were brainwashed into believing that the Hale-Bop comet was their ticket to heaven if they killed themselves as it passed close to the earth. Anyone can become susceptible to having their religious beliefs (the core of many people's belief systems) manipulated and used to get them to do horrible things. If you talk to Islamic extremists you will find that they are deeply pious people who truly believe that they are warriors of Allah and protectors of their faith against the giant satanic forces of Israel and the United States. They truly believe that we are trying to destroy their religion. That is an extremely dangerous belief that we know is utterly wrong. Yet our State Department and media does very little to refute that belief. We could do MUCH more in that effort if we so desired. Sadly the political willpower is not there. Such policies do not get votes.
While attacking terrorist ideologies at their root core makes logical sense, it is political suicide. Any politician who advocated that would be called "a terrorist appeaser" by his/her political rivals.

My only hope is that this attitude will change and that more Americans both conservative and liberal will begin to use this strategy to counter and de-legitimise Islamic extremists all over the world through the use of wide spread multi-media counter-propaganda that is grounded in Islam and promoted by Islamic scholars.
The more difficult part however will be that we must change our foreign policy for this to be most effective.
This means taking a much more diplomatic approach with Iran (less threats and more carrot sticks to get them to end their nuclear weapons program). It also means getting serious about developing a better peace plan between the Israelis and Palestinians using more flexible experimental approaches and by getting input from not just Fatah, but also from Hamas who, like it or not, are major players in that conflict.
Finally, pulling out of Iraq is a must. There is no fixing that mess militarily short of a draft of millions of Americans in order to fill every street corner with American troops. Either that or using a nuke to murder millions of Iraqis. While tempting, it is not necessary to resort to extreme genocide if peaceful methods of combating terrorism bear fruits. Plus using nukes would scare the hell out of the rest of the world and likely result in a new nuclear arms race with our former European and Asian allies.

About Saudi Arabia and tolerance. I lived there in the early 80's and went to Christian church services held in a movie theater at the old USMTM compound in Riyadh. You can have a bible there, you just can't distribute them to non-Christians. As for going to Mecca and Medina, for a non-Muslim that's not a big deal. Aside from curiosity, there really isn't any need to go there unless you are a Muslim. You can travel in the rest of Saudi Arabia, however some parts are a little dangerous these days. I was lucky that I was able to travel all over Saudi Arabia and I experienced the most amazing hospitality by Saudis all over especially by Bedhoin tribesmen. I don't support how they treat women, but neither do many fellow Muslims in other countries. With that said, things are gradually changing as female Islamic scholars begin to assert their rights given to them according to Shariat Law. In Morocco for example they have appointed female Islamic scholars to combat the influence of wahhabism in Islamic interpretations about the rights of women. Malaysia and Indonesia have similar prominent places and important roles for female Islamic scholars.
Wahhabis forget that some of the most important Hadiths were narrated originally by Mohammed's youngest wife Aisha. They also forget that Mohammed's first and favorite wife, Khadija, was a powerful business woman who owned a huge merchant company. HE worked for her and after marriage always respected her advice. He did not marry any other women until after she died (she was a widow who was 15 years older then he was).
These Wahhabis don't like bringing up all of that, but they can not refute that their prophet had great respect for at least certain women. He also put out laws that banned female infanticide. Believe it or not, but at the time much of what he did could be called feminist for that period (but not today).

As for the 4th of July and Freedom, it is important to not compare our forefathers and Muslims. They both have profoundly different historical and cultural experiences. However there are some similarities. Muslims do want to fight for their freedom. But it is the freedom from the West in our interfering with how they want to run their governments and practice their religion. I will be the first to say, that I do not support blindly forcing democracy into that region. Nations rarely become democracies overnight. If we, for example, forced Egypt and Pakistan to have democracies today, we would see Islamic radicals immediately come into power as the majority. When the time is right, I think that they will move towards democracies. But it must be at their own pace and their own time when their people are willing to fully fight for it. At the same time, we must improve relations with the Islamic world so that, WHEN they do develop democracies, we will not have to worry about them being a threat to us. We will be their partner in democracy. There will be disagreements in human rights issues. We have those problems now with our new buddies in communist China and Vietnam. But those human rights issues are slowly being addressed as they have been slowly in the Islamic world. Those issues will never be solved by using military force. That will only get a radical reaction that only feeds extremism which is what we are seeing happen in Iraq and Afghanistan.
All of this is delicate ground and I hope and pray that on this 4th of July our nation will do the right thing and move towards peaceful means of counter-terrorism so that the sacrifices of our brave men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan will not be in vain. Otherwise, I expect sadly that we will be mourning the deaths of our men and women uniform for many years to come.

Chris G.


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Title Commenter Date Thread
Oh joy! She's gone. [14 words]MelMNov 1, 2007 22:42112855
Search for truth [40 words]Khan A RMay 7, 2012 14:30112855
smarter than he sounds [108 words]jennifer solisAug 25, 2007 18:51106975
If he is smarter, he may be a traitor [168 words]Charles MartelAug 27, 2007 15:54106975
I have the same exact fears [380 words]kid berthaAug 28, 2007 12:34106975
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1The West Just Doesn't "Get It." [40 words]orange yonasonJul 29, 2007 20:59105100
Interesting example [270 words]donvanJul 24, 2007 14:27104597
What if the white women took off their hajabs in the mosque [205 words]Phil GreendJul 17, 2007 19:45103879
1What if the white women took off their hajabs in the mosque [134 words]MarcJul 23, 2007 14:15103879
What if the white women took off their hajabs in the mosque [67 words]S. ChowdhuryJan 15, 2008 06:55103879
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1i'm a white muslim woman [163 words]tracy abdalghanyApr 11, 2008 18:43103879
jimmie [53 words]btillyJul 13, 2008 09:40103879
1Respect is best when it's general and objective. [188 words]KhalidMay 24, 2010 18:58103879
"You Are Either With Us Or Against Us . . . [70 words]orange yonasonJul 10, 2007 17:44103377
Outrageous [67 words]Carol SolfronkJul 9, 2007 21:24103316
covering of heads is not the problem [127 words]SullyJul 13, 2007 15:45103316
Outrageous? No, treacherous! [184 words]IanusJul 24, 2007 15:20103316
Response to Ianus [108 words]Carol SolfronkJul 28, 2007 20:25103316
Prayers of "a great religion" for G. Bush [393 words]IanusJul 29, 2007 18:43103316
Response to Sully [126 words]Carol SolfronkJul 29, 2007 19:31103316
Response II to Ianus [151 words]Carol SolfronkJul 30, 2007 21:27103316
Carol - the President is head of state of a Republic [114 words]sullyJul 31, 2007 10:33103316
To Sully with love [186 words]Carol SolfronkJul 31, 2007 22:07103316
Boutin, French Minister has all the answers [332 words]InfidelJul 8, 2007 16:45103250
Nothing Has Changed [120 words]MikeJul 6, 2007 14:19103123
The Art of Going Shoeless [165 words]Larry SniderJul 5, 2007 18:53103050
Reply to Mr. Snider [53 words]Carol SolfronkJul 13, 2007 19:19103050
Reply to Ms Solfronk [458 words]MarcJul 24, 2007 10:47103050
Marc: Rebuttal [47 words]Carol SolfronkJul 28, 2007 20:17103050
Islamo-Facism Was a Concern During World War II---Plans Made to End Islamic Threat, Forever. [315 words]William BryanJul 5, 2007 18:20103048
What if... [207 words]Bob LevinJul 5, 2007 10:17103028
Shoeless George Bush. [75 words]David R. GroesbeckJul 5, 2007 03:50102999
Dr. Pipes confirmed my fears... [470 words]YnnatchkahJul 4, 2007 21:23102979
P.S. [68 words]orange yonasonJul 4, 2007 18:27102966
Change is slow, look at you.... [132 words]jJul 4, 2007 11:28102899
George Bush is still in the neighborhood [95 words]HarrakJul 4, 2007 10:17102898
Bush's act of treason [53 words]Roosevelt's DiscipleJul 4, 2007 08:20102884
prosecuted for treason almost half the wold population [187 words]ahmadzafireJul 21, 2007 07:33102884
That tiny group of extremists [154 words]JayJul 4, 2007 01:43102870
defend the moderate muslims [46 words]ibneJul 4, 2007 18:28102870
My way to control Extrimists [66 words]Un DrainedJul 4, 2007 18:42102870
illusion upon illusion [222 words]yuval Brandstetter MDJul 5, 2007 11:20102870
Tiny majority of extremists!!! [144 words]JaladhiJul 6, 2007 10:42102870
So what does that mean? [285 words]PatJul 7, 2007 20:20102870
Muhammad taught moderation and kindness [193 words]InfidelJul 8, 2007 20:22102870
The Israeli way... [789 words]Chris G.Jul 11, 2007 21:28102870
Hizballah ? [122 words]BOSJul 16, 2007 07:01102870
Kick the dust... [167 words]donvanJul 17, 2007 10:22102870
Shoeless George Bush ( Discusses Islam): A reply to UnDrained [196 words]Jaisingh ThakurJul 18, 2007 07:35102870
Pat- your teachers taught you wrong stuff about Islam [23 words]ibneJul 20, 2007 10:47102870
Please enlighten me [18 words]PatJul 21, 2007 14:04102870
Response to BOS- The Israeli Way [386 words]Chris G.Jul 23, 2007 02:38102870
You claims are bogus [243 words]dhimmi no moreJul 23, 2007 20:55102870
Reply to Dhimmi again... A tablighee??? [583 words]Chris G.Jul 24, 2007 17:37102870
Hypocrisy!!! [147 words]JaladhiJul 24, 2007 17:39102870
So what did we learn from our dear Chris? [168 words]dhimmi no moreJul 25, 2007 07:23102870
You did not provide us with the web address! [67 words]dhimmi no moreJul 25, 2007 07:28102870
Dhimmi and tablighees- [1014 words]Chris G.Jul 25, 2007 19:42102870
You still did not answer my quesion about ayat al-sayf [153 words]dhimmi no moreJul 26, 2007 07:20102870
Our dear Chris Q41:34 aka the bossom aya [117 words]dhimmi no moreJul 26, 2007 07:31102870
And where say in ayat al-sayf not to kill children and women/ Let me help you: it does not and your claims are bogus [131 words]dhimmi no moreJul 26, 2007 18:59102870
Last Post [428 words]Chris G.Jul 26, 2007 20:40102870
Chris and his bogus history [292 words]dhimmi no moreJul 27, 2007 07:27102870
Abul Qasim aka Muhammad sent emissaries to the Romans (sic) in Tabuk? Really? [53 words]dhimmi no moreJul 27, 2007 07:46102870
Our dear Chris and Is there such thing as moderate muslims? And you know what? the Wahabbis are the real Muslims [91 words]dhimmi no moreJul 27, 2007 19:09102870
Our dear Chris and his last post [153 words]dhimmi no moreJul 28, 2007 17:56102870
Our dear Chris and the Allah changing his mind doctrine [454 words]dhimmi no moreJul 29, 2007 11:19102870
sorry about the delayed response chris [352 words]bosDec 19, 2007 08:32102870
abrogation [22 words]bosDec 20, 2007 07:23102870
Partition myths and realty [287 words]Ghulam Muhammed, MumbaiJun 20, 2008 00:30102870
What Bush Should Have Done And Said, And Why [235 words]orange yonasonJul 4, 2007 01:08102866
Right in their own words! [188 words]PatJul 4, 2007 14:14102866
Not quite as simple as that [823 words]Chris G.Jul 4, 2007 21:55102866
We will, unfortunately, never know [202 words]orange yonasonJul 8, 2007 17:06102866
A Simple Problem Without A Simple Solution [173 words]orange yonasonJul 8, 2007 17:28102866
Pat, Here Are Some More Links You May Appreciate [162 words]orange yonasonJul 9, 2007 11:05102866
Moderates support Bin Laden? [119 words]Chris G.Jul 11, 2007 19:19102866
Not Real Moderates, Chris [387 words]orange yonasonJul 15, 2007 14:17102866
Reply to Orange [300 words]Chris G.Jul 23, 2007 16:01102866
brief comment [112 words]orange yonasonJul 23, 2007 18:08102866
Hamza Yusuf? He is a wannabe Arab just like the little olive institute [44 words]dihmmi no moreJul 23, 2007 19:24102866
Our dear Yusuf Hamza and the Arabic language [459 words]dhimmi no moreJul 24, 2007 07:38102866
Fraudulent Claims of hate crimes??? [136 words]Chris GJul 24, 2007 14:47102866
Reply to Dhimmi- Islam is only for Arabs? Quick lets tell all the converts!!! [50 words]Chris G.Jul 24, 2007 15:55102866
Reply to Dhimmi- Hamza Yusuf [634 words]Chris G.Jul 24, 2007 19:27102866
CAIR's "Hate Crimes" Lies DOCUMENTED, Etc. [256 words]orange yonasonJul 25, 2007 02:50102866
"Sheikh" Hamza Yusuf, Islamist Tool [70 words]orange yonasonJul 25, 2007 03:36102866
Read Q14:4 [55 words]dhimmi no moreJul 25, 2007 07:11102866
More fantasy from our dear Chris [47 words]dhimmi no moreJul 25, 2007 07:41102866
And how do you know that Hamza Yusuf speaks classical Arabic? [67 words]dhimmi no moreJul 25, 2007 08:23102866
Reply to Dhimmi- I'll pass... [121 words]Chris G.Jul 25, 2007 17:39102866
Reply to Dhimmi- Hamza Yusuf again [374 words]Chris G.Jul 25, 2007 20:32102866
Replay to Orange- There is CAIR and then there is Caring... [551 words]Chris G.Jul 25, 2007 21:07102866
Our dear Chris and the word Hazrat and Islam is not the religion of the Pakistanis at least this is what the Qur'an really says [98 words]dhimmi no moreJul 26, 2007 19:05102866
Amen for what? [54 words]dhimmi no moreJul 26, 2007 19:17102866
Islam And Human Rights, Answer To "ChrisG" [518 words]oramge yonasonJul 26, 2007 22:23102866
"Caring" - The Oxymoron Of Islamic "Charity" [275 words]orange yonasonJul 26, 2007 23:32102866
Our dear Chris and his chat with the guy from Hizolllah [70 words]dhimmi no moreJul 27, 2007 07:31102866
The Qur'an really says that islam is the religion of the Arabs only [174 words]dhimmi no moreJul 27, 2007 07:40102866
THEM EGALITARIAN ARABS [43 words]orange yonasonJul 27, 2007 16:45102866
Our dear Chris : converts, Islam is the religion of the Arabs and other sordid things [106 words]dhimmi no moreJul 28, 2007 19:02102866
1Yusuf Hamza's Arabic [758 words]AbdullahMar 3, 2009 02:58102866
Dependency on Middle east oil, lol? [23 words]AbdullahMar 3, 2009 03:04102866
Don't bother [71 words]Chris G.Mar 3, 2009 22:05102866
Our dear Abd Allah another victim of the imperialism of the Hijazi Arabs [670 words]dhimmi no moreMar 4, 2009 07:59102866
Our dear Crhis G is back [285 words]dhimmi no moreApr 4, 2009 10:45102866
Yes I'm back! [288 words]Chris G.Apr 5, 2009 23:33102866
He speaks very good Arabic [71 words]Laila HassaballaSep 16, 2010 19:14102866
1Hamza Yusuf is a wannabe Arab [409 words]dhimmi no moreSep 17, 2010 06:39102866
1He speaks Egytpian Arabic too? really? where? [391 words]dhimmi no moreSep 18, 2010 07:41102866
Here is the proof [119 words]Laila HassaballaSep 19, 2010 14:56102866
1Egyptian Arabic really? [190 words]dhimmi no moreSep 19, 2010 17:55102866
He speaks Egytpian Arabic too? really? where? part deux [146 words]dhimmi no moreSep 20, 2010 07:27102866
Rudy Seems to be the Best Bet for United States [83 words]SinghaJul 3, 2007 23:24102856
Not my bet [111 words]PatJul 7, 2007 18:47102856
right on [209 words]kid berthaJul 5, 2007 15:01102852
At least one woman in the audience is NOT wearing a hijab! [15 words]Abu NudnikJul 3, 2007 21:30102845
I made a simple statement on this matter of moral equivalence in a letter published long before Daniel Pearl was murdered. [340 words]Jascha KesslerJul 3, 2007 21:06102842
Why do we need to kow-tow? [222 words]Rebecca MouldsJul 3, 2007 18:24102834
and another thing [21 words]Mike Smith, M.A.Jul 3, 2007 17:37102832
Moral zealot [187 words]Alexandra HawigerJul 4, 2007 08:38102832
Desperate Need for IFF Controls [577 words]M. ToveyJul 3, 2007 17:11102829
I am confused [976 words]Chris G.Jul 3, 2007 15:34102826
Where is the reciprocity? [1142 words]PatJul 4, 2007 00:19102826
Where is the reciprocity? [184 words]IanusJul 4, 2007 08:53102826
Good Muslims vs. Bad Muslims: Reply To Pat on Reciprocity [4664 words]Chris G.Jul 4, 2007 18:22102826
I wish you well in your efforts Chris [168 words]SullyJul 5, 2007 13:56102826
straight up.... [39 words]kid berthaJul 5, 2007 14:33102826
Freedom From Confusion [652 words]M. ToveyJul 5, 2007 19:35102826
Response to Sully [1261 words]Chris G.Jul 7, 2007 13:00102826
Chris, you're whitewashing [582 words]PatJul 7, 2007 13:26102826
Discussing Jihad, while war continues [164 words]InfidelJul 9, 2007 11:33102826
Reply to Pat [1998 words]Chris G.Jul 11, 2007 14:04102826
No Fear- Reply to Ianus [214 words]Chris G.Jul 11, 2007 15:56102826
JESUS CHRIST IS YOUR LORD??? THEN PLEASE FOLLOW HIS TEACHINGS. [1132 words]Chris G.Jul 12, 2007 19:55102826
Warfare & Islam [354 words]Chris G.Jul 12, 2007 20:18102826
Realism vs dreams [2198 words]IanusJul 14, 2007 10:31102826
Good for you [1121 words]PatJul 14, 2007 12:31102826
Islam and warfare - one example : Greek fire [154 words]IanusJul 16, 2007 17:41102826
NON REFORMED iSLAM... [121 words]DONVANJul 18, 2007 16:38102826
Follow the Truth [812 words]M. ToveyJul 23, 2007 01:18102826
Reply to Donvan- Semantics [246 words]Chris G.Jul 23, 2007 02:09102826
Reply to Ianus-Going Greek [101 words]Chris G.Jul 23, 2007 15:45102826
At some point... [213 words]donvanJul 23, 2007 16:40102826
"Moral weapons" [326 words]IanusJul 23, 2007 18:21102826
Our dear Chris and his bogus history [300 words]dhimmi no moreJul 23, 2007 19:18102826
No Fear- Reply to Ianus #2 [7225 words]Chris G.Jul 24, 2007 12:27102826
Reply to Donvan- Beware of assumptions about Islamic interpretations or making self-interpretations. [1178 words]Chris G.Jul 24, 2007 14:35102826
Self-Criticism by Muslims [481 words]Chris G.Jul 24, 2007 15:41102826
Reply to Dhimmi: You don't like Booty? [147 words]Chris G.Jul 24, 2007 15:51102826
Some basic remarks [738 words]IanusJul 24, 2007 19:19102826
Discussing with wolves [248 words]IanusJul 24, 2007 19:38102826
Reply to Mr. Tovey- Jesus Saves indeed. [1309 words]Chris G.Jul 24, 2007 21:23102826
Islamic rules of JIhad? [86 words]dhimmi no moreJul 25, 2007 07:35102826
Justifying the absurd [54 words]dhimmi no moreJul 25, 2007 08:01102826
Self-critism of everything but Islam or intellectual janissaries [1058 words]IanusJul 25, 2007 10:43102826
"Rules of Jihad" - a good Islamic reason why women must be killed during jihad. They cook food for their husbands who fight Allah. [419 words]IanusJul 25, 2007 15:30102826
Who are we at war with? [429 words]IanusJul 25, 2007 16:15102826
Brainwashed? . . . Or Willfully Deceptive? [441 words]orange yonasonJul 25, 2007 17:03102826
Reply to Ianus#3 Hug a Muslim [1271 words]Chris G.Jul 25, 2007 17:08102826
Turks [197 words]Chris G.Jul 25, 2007 17:26102826
"Common values" [1316 words]IanusJul 25, 2007 17:41102826
"Turkey is a democracy." If so , the US is a military dictatorship. [327 words]IanusJul 25, 2007 18:30102826
Extension of the Truth [638 words]M. ToveyJul 25, 2007 19:30102826
Reply to Dhimmi- Now I am Hindu? [236 words]Chris G.Jul 25, 2007 20:08102826
Reply to Ianus- Hope springs eternal [575 words]Chris G.Jul 25, 2007 21:47102826
Reply to Pat2- Taxis and Jihad [1436 words]Chris G.Jul 26, 2007 01:06102826
Reply to Ianus [929 words]Chris G.Jul 26, 2007 15:08102826
Dreams of Turkish glasnost [568 words]IanusJul 26, 2007 15:13102826
Reply to Ianus- Friends and Protectors [266 words]Chris G.Jul 26, 2007 15:25102826
1Why I never trust Moslems - the case of Banu Quraisa [737 words]IanusJul 26, 2007 16:41102826
Reply to M.Tovey #2- Thy Lord is the truth [427 words]Chris G.Jul 26, 2007 16:49102826
Ibn Kathir [299 words]PatJul 26, 2007 17:25102826
Reply to Ianus- Democracy [403 words]Chris G.Jul 26, 2007 17:25102826
The choice between "good" and "evil" is not foreseen in this case. [1453 words]IanusJul 26, 2007 18:50102826
I have to introduce myself [14 words]dhimmi no moreJul 26, 2007 19:11102826
Careless reader [31 words]dhimmi no moreJul 26, 2007 19:22102826
Reply to Ianus- #24 reasons to waste time on the internet. [1980 words]Chris G.Jul 26, 2007 19:49102826
Reply to Orange- Chill out dude [477 words]Chris G.Jul 26, 2007 20:18102826
Jesus Christ Has Said It All. [959 words]M. ToveyJul 27, 2007 16:31102826
Hi Ianus and our dear Chris [32 words]dhimmi no moreJul 27, 2007 18:36102826
1Chechen sufis and their ways [811 words]IanusJul 27, 2007 19:09102826
Witch-hunting Moslem-style [156 words]IanusJul 27, 2007 19:37102826
Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas , Chris G. [417 words]IanusJul 28, 2007 14:42102826
Let's continue ! [35 words]IanusJul 28, 2007 15:09102826
Our dear Chris suggests that we hug a Muslim! Really? [32 words]dhimmi no moreJul 28, 2007 17:42102826
Our dear Chris and his poor falsafa [88 words]dhimmi no moreJul 29, 2007 07:21102826
Our dear Chris and Q5:51 and more bogus claims [758 words]dhimmi no moreJul 29, 2007 08:40102826
So Many "Chilling" Misconceptions [622 words]orange yonasonJul 29, 2007 16:17102826
To Chris G: Hopeful signs of cognitive dissonance among Muslims. [384 words]PlatoJul 31, 2007 03:38102826
Reply to Plato- Thank you for having an open mind [1195 words]Chris G,Aug 2, 2007 10:00102826
fed up and feel enough is enoug [128 words]can't talk about islam so no nameAug 11, 2014 20:22102826
Uncomfortable Feelings .... [124 words]Mohammed AminJul 3, 2007 15:13102824
Unjust and Ignorant [26 words]Mark TheermanJul 3, 2007 14:17102811
"Ignorance is strength" [49 words]IanusJul 4, 2007 08:04102811
Unfortunately, Mark [14 words]LDCJul 4, 2007 08:53102811
Muwaffaq Theerman, You Have Forgotten To List Your Proofs [103 words]"Osage Shmohamed"Jul 4, 2007 21:33102811
If we're ignorant then show us Islam's peace [234 words]PatJul 7, 2007 18:30102811
The news is your source on Islam??? [354 words]Chris G.Jul 13, 2007 10:19102811
TO: Chris G. [224 words]LDCJul 21, 2007 15:28102811
Reply to LDC [224 words]Chris G.Jul 23, 2007 16:12102811
Our dear Chris his big time falsafa and Muslim women view of Westen culture [97 words]dhimmi no moreJul 23, 2007 20:36102811
Reply 2 to LDC- Dhimmi do I detect hatred from you? [344 words]Chris G.Jul 24, 2007 16:16102811
Oh Islamophobia? Really? [36 words]dhimmi no moreJul 25, 2007 07:49102811
It's Really Not THAT Bad, Pat. It's Actually. . . [302 words]orange yonasonJul 25, 2007 18:45102811
Reply To Dhimmi- Your right [164 words]Chris G.Jul 25, 2007 21:17102811
Replay to Orange- Learn about Islam before speaking [397 words]Chris G.Jul 26, 2007 17:04102811
Oh I see [45 words]dhimmi no moreJul 26, 2007 19:08102811
Eyeless as well as shoeless [329 words]IvanJul 3, 2007 13:54102806
Worse than Clueless - Bush the Bungler enjoys being shoeless, clueless,,,,,brainless? [165 words]Breslan 172 (Have you forgotten yet?)Jul 4, 2007 18:00102806
Ivan Is In Touch With His Inner "Islamophobe" [15 words]orange yonasonJul 4, 2007 23:31102806
Change of tone [51 words]VijayJul 3, 2007 13:47102804
Not all is lost [18 words]VijayJul 3, 2007 13:45102803
Shoeless & Clueless [33 words]LDCJul 3, 2007 12:46102795
An unravelling [129 words]David W. LincolnJul 3, 2007 12:31102793
Dr. Pipes and Confucius [408 words]IanusJul 3, 2007 11:58102792
Shoeless George Bush [802 words]barbaraJul 3, 2007 11:56102791
the bush legacy [159 words]john w mcginleyJul 3, 2007 11:42102789
The Blind leading the blind [119 words]Richard L RubensteinJul 3, 2007 11:21102787
Conflicted, not confused [415 words]PatJul 3, 2007 11:08102786
Dead on... [444 words]kid berthaJul 5, 2007 14:01102786
Suddenly everything is "terrorism" [262 words]PatJul 7, 2007 20:48102786
clueless politicians [120 words]ErnieJul 3, 2007 11:02102590
Justice and Morality [196 words]Edward HalperJul 3, 2007 09:46102557
Turbans for GWB entourage [34 words]Romesh ChanderJul 3, 2007 09:05102553
They'd better not wear turbans [93 words]PatJul 7, 2007 20:29102553
You missed the beard [62 words]true believerJul 13, 2007 04:16102553
TROJAN HORSE [87 words]Jorge CordovaJul 3, 2007 07:44102548
"Clueless" would be more apt title!!!! [29 words]JaladhiJul 3, 2007 07:04102537
Sorry, Jaladhi [17 words]orange yonasonJul 4, 2007 19:17102537
Great minds think alike - Orange!!! [32 words]JaladhiJul 7, 2007 10:02102537

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