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Good news from Saudi Arabia : In 500 years witches will no longer be hunted and executed there !

Reader comment on item: L'Institut d'Égypte – In Memoriam
in response to reader comment: Putting things into perspective

Submitted by Ianus (Poland), Jan 5, 2012 at 10:42

Ronald Paul Ng

> Life is certainly interesting. At the start of this new year, I find myself engaged in debating on this site and in the Economist on very similar positions, that it is the absolute belief in dogmas that lead to terrible things being done by human beings to other human beings.<

Let me remark that I am not sure what you mean by "dogma" in the first place and ,second, that one can be as dogmatic defending dogmas as when opposes them vehemently.

If absolute belief in dogmas leads to "terrible things being done by human beings to other human beings", then jainism ( the religion of absolute non-violence) should be one of the most terrible genocidal forces in this world as it has so many absolute dogmas you must adhere to that I don't know how it could escape your rigorous definition ?

> In the Economist, I am debating against a few moslems who probably think I am anti-muslim, and, here, I think some think I am defending moslems. Interesting. <

Maybe we might blame your too flexible views for that quid pro quo?

>First, let me state categorically, i don't think and I have never accused the Chinese of being evil. <

No? So why did you give the example of the Cultural Revolution when the subject matter was the burning of L'Institut d'Egypte and wider acts of Moslem violence and vandalism against culture and books as being on a par with never ending cultural genocide perpetrated by Moslems ?

>(Incidentally, I am ethnic Chinese).<

I have the impression you're not from continental China.

> Neither do I think moslems are evil, I have many good moslem friends...(By the way, I am a baptised and confirmed Christian in the Anglican Church) <

I always ask at least two things those kafirs who tell me about their "Moslem friends". First, what do they know about Islam and methods of jiahd as practiced for the last 1432 years and, second, if they have asked their Moslem "friends" pushing straight in their face the Quran which says (5.51) "O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people." and (5.80) "You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide." ?

You can't be a true Moslem (and which Moslem say he isn't a true Moslem?) and be a sincere friend of a kafir.

> I think it is the rigid adherence to certain doctrines that at times, can make good men do evil things. That's all.<

Your "all" is by far not enough at all as I can quote to you a hundred or so doctrines which have no such record of destruction, genocide and regress as Islam does. Jainism is a fine example that immediately has come to my mind. It's a very rigid and dogmatic teaching and yet I can imagine a more peaceful one. In other words , it is not dogma and doctrine as such that produces the effects you are referring to.It must be something else that makes one dogma a nightmare for all those who don't accept it and another which seems to be an idyll on earth.

> This applies to the Christians some 500 years ago, which if you think of the long history of civilization, isn't that long ago.<

500 years "isn't that long ago"? Then how old is our civilization ? If you notice that our civilization began some 4000-5000 years ago, then some 10% of our historical time is quite a long time span , especially given the obvious fact that history accelerates its paces as it approaches modernity, i.e. the era of the great geographical discoveries, the Reformation, the Renaissance and the Enlightenment , all of which Islam hasn't made any contribution to.

>Incidentally, the last witch executed in Europe was a Barbara Zdunk in Prussia in 1811.<

I advise you to better investigate your examples before bringing them up. Barbara Zdunk could not be executed as a "witch" because magic was no criminal offence in Prussia -if I am not mistaken - since the 17th century. She was convicted of arson after a great fire that reduced the town of Rößel to ashes.

In the meantime last December ,i.d. hardly a month ago, in Saudi Arabia "Amina bint Abdul Halim bin Salem Nasser was beheaded ... in the northern province of Jawf" ..." for practising "witchcraft and sorcery", the country's interior ministry says. But you don't care, do you? From what you said bellow it follows that you firmly believe that in 500 years no witches will be hunted and executed in Saudi Arabia as Enlightenment will prevail there.So why bother about what is going on there at present ?

> Yes, I agree that the "Age of Enlightenment" hasn't reached the Islamic world, (in the Economist site, I said exactly the same thing), <

Now it's up to you to tell me why it hasn't reached the Islamic world which all Moslems and even some gullible kafirs find so fine and superior ?

> but one Jewish friend, yes Jewish friend of mine once said this to me. Christianity started some 500 years before Islam, 500 years ago, it was going through that terrible period of religious wars and burning of witches and so on; as Islam started 500 years after Christianity, it is going through the same now. Well, that's one way of looking at things.<

Whoever said this , my friend , is trying to either make fools of us or is dishonest or lives in a dream world. How does he know that Enlightenment and Rationalism that started in Europe under very unusual and specific circumstances will also start in Islam in 500 years? Has he found it out through the ancient Chinese bone and tortoise shell divination or what ? Has Allah or Voltaire told him? There is not a single force in Islam acting on behalf of Enlightenment and so many acting against it and yet I am to believe a miracle will take place and what is impossible will be the case ?

Can't you see how dogmatic the belief that "it is going through the same now" is? What if it is going the same way and yet will have no happy end as in Europe? What if in 500 years nothing of the wishful thinking we are being fed with now comes true and more witches will be beheaded and not in Saudi Arabia but in Moslem-run states like the United Americam Emirates or the Islamic republic of France or the North German Beylik ?

Submitting....

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Reader comments (103) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
1Destruction of historical artifacts [77 words]jeanFeb 19, 2012 02:19193485
Muslims not capable of "hate" [412 words]Dan B.Feb 8, 2012 16:30193217
Are today's egyptians a civilization? [142 words]WalberJan 23, 2012 05:21192743
3Upsetting but not surprising [68 words]saraJan 13, 2012 18:05192569
1Just to clarify [25 words]Bernard ZimmermanJan 6, 2012 20:10192350
6Why would a mob destroy a thing of beauty? [283 words]PrashantDec 29, 2011 05:06192124
2Deliberate Defilement [80 words]Garry LockwoodJan 3, 2012 01:27192124
D. B. [75 words]The West becoming Islam's fire hydrantFeb 8, 2012 16:59192124
4Does this signal a shift in self perception of Egyptian identity? [566 words]ShishirDec 28, 2011 04:41192089
1My response to Shishir [344 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 7, 2012 22:11192089
3Response to dhimmi/Islamist apologist Debanjan [738 words]ShishirJan 9, 2012 05:57192089
1Dear Shishir [695 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 11, 2012 02:26192089
3Nile to Euphrates Israel,Mossadegh is an Arab,Islam unites Arabs and other nuggets of wisdom from Debanjan [574 words]ShishirJan 12, 2012 09:39192089
Dear Mr. Shishir [1172 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 16, 2012 00:12192089
More drivel from Debanjan [1357 words]ShishirJan 19, 2012 12:54192089
1Dear Mr. Shishir [1227 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 21, 2012 22:30192089
Debanjan claims he is the next Theodor Herzl [1847 words]ShishirJan 29, 2012 13:19192089
1My dear Shishir [849 words]Debanjan BanerjeeFeb 2, 2012 02:48192089
3At it again Debanjee? [839 words]Peter HallFeb 3, 2012 09:38192089
1My Answers to you. Mr. Hall [1205 words]Debanjan BanerjeeFeb 21, 2012 23:03192089
3Debanjee, you are hilarious [925 words]Peter HallFeb 22, 2012 19:25192089
Banning burkhas in publicc is justified [47 words]PrashantFeb 24, 2012 09:09192089
Dear MR. Prashant [106 words]Debanjan BanerjeeFeb 24, 2012 22:19192089
1Another square peg in a round hole Debanjee? [341 words]Peter HallFeb 26, 2012 08:25192089
Banerjee won't understand and switch the topic [135 words]PrashantFeb 26, 2012 10:16192089
1Dear Mr. Hall [824 words]Debanjan BanerjeeFeb 27, 2012 23:22192089
5The Core for Burning is in First pillar of Islam [75 words]Michael Hanni MorcosDec 27, 2011 21:39192081
Erase and Control [113 words]Jay1Dec 27, 2011 19:59192078
2Very very Proud [108 words]Michael Hanni MorcosDec 27, 2011 17:18192075
Where can the interview be viewed? [53 words]ShishirDec 28, 2011 07:14192075
2Very very Rusty [94 words]Michael Hanni MorcosDec 29, 2011 00:03192075
1Burn the library! [43 words]Martin H. KatchenDec 27, 2011 12:10192073
1Assaulting History [43 words]Georga CollinsDec 27, 2011 11:13192071
4Who controls the past controls the future. [99 words]IanusDec 28, 2011 14:53192071
But it did pose a threat. [67 words]JeffDec 31, 2011 14:50192071
2French government does not learn! [62 words]Gudrun EussnerDec 27, 2011 10:34192068
5The destruction of the Egyptian historical record [135 words]Saul KellyDec 27, 2011 09:51192067
1islamic stagnation [56 words]steve omaraFeb 2, 2012 23:09192067
2Return of "looted arts" to their countries of origin [208 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Ronald ngDec 27, 2011 02:32192061
3What to loan Egypt. [17 words]Jon, a Brit in EurolandDec 28, 2011 10:15192061
2Mo vs. Mao [184 words]IanusDec 28, 2011 15:18192061
1Interesting perspective [151 words]Kepha HorDec 28, 2011 20:48192061
Destructions of Works of Art [157 words]Ronald NgDec 28, 2011 22:36192061
1You are right [139 words]Ronald NgDec 29, 2011 20:30192061
3You're too dogmatic about dogmas , I am afraid. [855 words]IanusDec 30, 2011 15:37192061
13The Parthenon Mosque [533 words]IanusDec 30, 2011 18:03192061
2Not Always The Case [145 words]BB KingDec 30, 2011 21:13192061
Intolerance [303 words]Ronald NgDec 30, 2011 21:24192061
Fighting Turkish Barbarity [138 words]7A3Jan 1, 2012 08:55192061
6When burning a book fails, then maybe converting it to Islam will be worth trying ? [785 words]IanusJan 1, 2012 16:48192061
7Missing sense of proportions and time [1047 words]IanusJan 1, 2012 19:33192061
Putting things into perspective [283 words]Ronald Paul NgJan 1, 2012 21:28192061
Still Not Always the Case [152 words]BB KingJan 1, 2012 22:59192061
3Fighting Turkish barbarity [94 words]IanusJan 2, 2012 17:04192061
1The choices... [49 words]Amin RiazJan 3, 2012 21:22192061
5Good news from Saudi Arabia : In 500 years witches will no longer be hunted and executed there ! [1159 words]IanusJan 5, 2012 10:42192061
Dogma [216 words]Ronald NgJan 5, 2012 21:46192061
8Aristotle vs. Allah [1502 words]IanusJan 6, 2012 10:16192061
3Not the Case Again [560 words]BB KingJan 7, 2012 00:39192061
8How many people did Mahommet kill? [873 words]IanusJan 7, 2012 14:27192061
3"He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." [1714 words]IanusJan 8, 2012 10:10192061
1So there is just one muslim voice... [53 words]car313Jan 9, 2012 11:35192061
To Assume [5 words]Amin RiazJan 9, 2012 22:45192061
Oh the Irony and Other Observations [444 words]BB KingJan 10, 2012 01:18192061
Answering Your Question [255 words]BB KingJan 10, 2012 01:49192061
5There is nothing hilarious or ironic in cultural nihilism which you represent . [1703 words]IanusJan 11, 2012 15:47192061
Changing the Goal Post [617 words]BB KingJan 11, 2012 19:10192061
3Feel free to circumvent also these questions ! [2237 words]IanusJan 13, 2012 11:18192061
3Do not trust anybody ! Rely on your ignorance ! [1443 words]IanusJan 13, 2012 13:26192061
Historical Revisionism Part 1 [312 words]BB KingJan 13, 2012 19:26192061
Cognitive Dissonance [168 words]BB KingJan 13, 2012 20:12192061
4"Don't trust your eyes!Trust mine!" [614 words]IanusJan 15, 2012 15:34192061
1Cognitive harmony between not knowing and not realizing one's not knowing [642 words]IanusJan 15, 2012 17:19192061
2Historical Revisionism Part 2 [421 words]BB KingJan 15, 2012 17:33192061
3The mystery of "the unusual depth ... of Lincoln's Christian perception" [772 words]IanusJan 16, 2012 07:40192061
Historical Revisionism Part 3 [443 words]BB KingJan 16, 2012 21:10192061
3The wasteland of whose imagination ? [1070 words]IanusJan 18, 2012 14:31192061
1I think you are onto something [168 words]Peter HallFeb 3, 2012 09:50192061
1Did you hear about ... [181 words]Amin RiazFeb 3, 2012 17:52192061
1Amin, you make a great victim [470 words]Peter HallFeb 4, 2012 20:25192061
Just to add [237 words]Peter HallFeb 4, 2012 20:53192061
8Islam's Destruction of Everything Beautiful [134 words]RobinDec 27, 2011 00:38192059
4You beat me to it, Robin [119 words]DEBORAH THE JUDGEDec 27, 2011 23:30192059
Robin from Australia is right [83 words]TedDec 28, 2011 09:45192059
6Copts are the true Egyptians [106 words]IanusDec 28, 2011 18:52192059
3Only the Koran worth knowing ... [116 words]RobinDec 29, 2011 01:30192059
Copts [142 words]DEBORAH THE JUDGEDec 29, 2011 20:15192059
2It is always Relative to the Time [121 words]Michael Hanni MorcosDec 31, 2011 12:59192059
You are right Deborah [125 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 7, 2012 22:01192059
L'Institut d' Égypte [41 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
hans GuggenheimDec 27, 2011 00:34192058
6"If those books are in agreement with the Quran, we have no need of them. And if they are opposed to the Quran, destroy them!" [517 words]IanusDec 28, 2011 13:35192058
1Peace Treaty is ultimate target [18 words]P RoseDec 26, 2011 23:41192057
What "peace" treaty [96 words]ShishirDec 28, 2011 04:48192057
4Cyprus [55 words]NikkiDec 26, 2011 23:12192056
8Sibel Edmonds will best explain to you why Turkish barbarity has never been punished. [445 words]IanusDec 28, 2011 14:37192056
1Happy 2012 , Ianus [213 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 7, 2012 21:52192056
4No reason for a Moslem to complain [415 words]IanusJan 11, 2012 17:21192056
1Dear Mr. Ianus [420 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 15, 2012 23:16192056
9An easy way to Islamize Eastern Europe = Saudi bribes +US pressure+Turkish jihad [745 words]IanusJan 22, 2012 09:08192056
Dear Mr. Ianus [138 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 24, 2012 22:26192056
3Cleptocracy [972 words]IanusJan 26, 2012 13:08192056
Dear Mr. Ianus I support you on this [371 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 31, 2012 12:03192056
1Re: An easy way to Islamize Eastern Europe = Saudi bribes +US pressure+Turkish jihad [40 words]NikJul 29, 2012 20:14192056

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