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The wasteland of whose imagination ?

Reader comment on item: L'Institut d'Égypte – In Memoriam
in response to reader comment: Historical Revisionism Part 3

Submitted by Ianus (Poland), Jan 18, 2012 at 14:31

BB King wrote :

"Ianus, I figured out your shyness over providing me links to back up your claims. You really can't justify your claims based on reality can you? That's why you make up things from wasteland of your imagination."

Give a try to the Google entry "Jews in the Soviet Army" ! What will pop up i.al. is a very interesting article " A desperate campaign to remember Soviet Jewish war heroes races against time". As I do doubt you're really interested in reading any stuff that runs counter to your a priori point , let me quote from it myself :

"For Soviet Jews, two issues surrounding World War II are very important. One is that 500,000 Soviet Jews served in the Red Army, and paid all the associated costs, and helped defeat the Nazis," explained Annelise Orleck, a history professor at Dartmouth and author of "The Soviet-Jewish Americans. [...]

Of the 500,000 Jews who fought in the Red Army, 40%, or 198,000 people, were killed. Shenker says he has found 156 Jewish Heroes of the Soviet Union, along with a number of people who were short-listed but, because they were Jews, never got an award. [...]

"The story of Jews in the Soviet army is a powerful and compelling one," said Edward Serotta, director of Centropa. "I don't blame American Jews for not knowing about this phenomenon. I blame those of us who care about the issue for not creating the kinds of books and films and exhibitions that would help change their minds."

So much for "my wasteland of imagination" and "justifying claims based on reality".

On a general note I can say that he who doesn't want to see reality must call anyone referring to this reality blind and/or incompetent, needn't he? Once upon a time Oriental despots used to cut off heads of messengers of bad news. This old practice seems to have survived until now even though the executions assume mostly symbolic forms.

> So you claim 500,000 Jews fought for the Red Army and many Jews were honored by the Soviets. What you conveniently left out was the aftermath of WW2. What happened to them after the war was over? And regarding Jewish participation in the Soviet Army: Of course they did! It was the only way to halt Soviet persecution of their people.<

You say therefore that the Soviet Jews fought in the Red Army and won highest Soviet awards not because they faced their mortal Nazi enemy but rather "to halt Soviet persecution of their people"? This is definitely consistent with your a priori views in the vast realm of your historical faith which I am afraid no laws of probability and common sense can ever undermine.

"During World War II, much of the attempts to persecute the Jews were halted. When World War II began, Jews played an important part of the Soviet military effort. Their role in the front lines was disproportionately higher then other national groups. While much of Soviet Jewry was decimated in the Holocaust, those living in Russia proper were mostly spared. After World War II was concluded, however, the attempts to suppress Soviet Jewry were resumed. Until Stalin's death in 1953, Soviet Jews were placed in the gulag and were faced with significant physical oppression. In 1952, Stalin had a number of leading Russian Jewish intellectuals murdered in the "Night of the Murdered Poets."

Even after Stalin's death, the attempt to suppress Judaism and Jewish culture continued. Jewish books and religious articles had to be smuggled into the country and attempts to study the books and utilize the religious articles had to be clandestine. The covert nature restricted access to Jewish life to only a few individuals. The few Jews who continued participation in Jewish life were called refusniks, and were severely punished by the Soviet authorities. By 1965, only about 60 synagogues remained in all of Russia. It was not until Mikhail Gorbachev came to power and his policy of glasnost that restrictions on Soviet Jewry lessened.

After the Six Day War, Soviet discrimination against Jews increased. Despite the discrimination, the Six Day War increased Jewish national consciousness. In 1970, 11 individuals (9 Jewish) tried to hijack an airline in order to raise world attention to the plight of Soviet Jewry. The hijacking gave new prominence to the Soviet Jewry movement. One of the hijackers, Yosef Mendelevich, completely secular while in Russia, is now a rabbi in Israel.

Jews were viewed as potential enemies by the Soviet authorities, partly because many Jews had relatives in the United States."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/russia.html#l <

In order to avoid embarrassing situations like this I urge you Ianus to cite your facts. Otherwise I can simply eradicate your historical revisionism because I have the truth on my side. What do you have?

Do you know the fallacy called "post hoc ergo propter hoc" ? I am not sure whether the authors you quote who put different epochs together succumb to this fallacy unconsciously or they use to in all awareness to prop up a definite theory and so to deflect our attention from a number of inconvenient facts that clearly speak against it.

Tell me what was the first country to recognize Israel de jure , i.e. to establish full diplomatic relations with it and who was chosen as Israel's first ambassador to the USSR and what she spoke about the USSR at that time? Second, with whose weapons did the Jews win their war of independence ? Where did they get artillery and airplanes from ? Just to remind you of one embarrassing fact, the US did recognize Israel de facto but imposed arms embrago on Israel. I hope that even you may well realize that for a nation in a state of siege with implacable enemies armed with Spitfires and artillery just waiting to swoop and exterminate this nation an arms embargo was tantamount to death sentence.

That the Jews later fell out of favor with Stalin is a fact that had its own deeper reasons. That Israel's their relations with the US improved later has also its own explanation but mixing different times, events and reasons to sell a definite theory as your "authorities" and you do is hardly worth imitating. The 'post hoc ergo proter hoc' argument is an old and popular technique among pseudo-historians and I admit you're quite good at it too.

Submitting....

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Reader comments (104) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
1Destruction of historical artifacts [77 words]jeanFeb 19, 2012 02:19193485
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2Deliberate Defilement [80 words]Garry LockwoodJan 3, 2012 01:27192124
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4Does this signal a shift in self perception of Egyptian identity? [566 words]ShishirDec 28, 2011 04:41192089
1My response to Shishir [344 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 7, 2012 22:11192089
3Response to dhimmi/Islamist apologist Debanjan [738 words]ShishirJan 9, 2012 05:57192089
1Dear Shishir [695 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 11, 2012 02:26192089
3Nile to Euphrates Israel,Mossadegh is an Arab,Islam unites Arabs and other nuggets of wisdom from Debanjan [574 words]ShishirJan 12, 2012 09:39192089
Dear Mr. Shishir [1172 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 16, 2012 00:12192089
More drivel from Debanjan [1357 words]ShishirJan 19, 2012 12:54192089
1Dear Mr. Shishir [1227 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 21, 2012 22:30192089
Debanjan claims he is the next Theodor Herzl [1847 words]ShishirJan 29, 2012 13:19192089
1My dear Shishir [849 words]Debanjan BanerjeeFeb 2, 2012 02:48192089
3At it again Debanjee? [839 words]Peter HallFeb 3, 2012 09:38192089
1My Answers to you. Mr. Hall [1205 words]Debanjan BanerjeeFeb 21, 2012 23:03192089
3Debanjee, you are hilarious [925 words]Peter HallFeb 22, 2012 19:25192089
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Dear MR. Prashant [106 words]Debanjan BanerjeeFeb 24, 2012 22:19192089
1Another square peg in a round hole Debanjee? [341 words]Peter HallFeb 26, 2012 08:25192089
Banerjee won't understand and switch the topic [135 words]PrashantFeb 26, 2012 10:16192089
1Dear Mr. Hall [824 words]Debanjan BanerjeeFeb 27, 2012 23:22192089
5The Core for Burning is in First pillar of Islam [75 words]Michael Hanni MorcosDec 27, 2011 21:39192081
Erase and Control [113 words]Jay1Dec 27, 2011 19:59192078
2Very very Proud [108 words]Michael Hanni MorcosDec 27, 2011 17:18192075
Where can the interview be viewed? [53 words]ShishirDec 28, 2011 07:14192075
2Very very Rusty [94 words]Michael Hanni MorcosDec 29, 2011 00:03192075
1Burn the library! [43 words]Martin H. KatchenDec 27, 2011 12:10192073
1Assaulting History [43 words]Georga CollinsDec 27, 2011 11:13192071
4Who controls the past controls the future. [99 words]IanusDec 28, 2011 14:53192071
But it did pose a threat. [67 words]JeffDec 31, 2011 14:50192071
2French government does not learn! [62 words]Gudrun EussnerDec 27, 2011 10:34192068
5The destruction of the Egyptian historical record [135 words]Saul KellyDec 27, 2011 09:51192067
1islamic stagnation [56 words]steve omaraFeb 2, 2012 23:09192067
2Return of "looted arts" to their countries of origin [208 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Ronald ngDec 27, 2011 02:32192061
3What to loan Egypt. [17 words]Jon, a Brit in EurolandDec 28, 2011 10:15192061
2Mo vs. Mao [184 words]IanusDec 28, 2011 15:18192061
1Interesting perspective [151 words]Kepha HorDec 28, 2011 20:48192061
Destructions of Works of Art [157 words]Ronald NgDec 28, 2011 22:36192061
1You are right [139 words]Ronald NgDec 29, 2011 20:30192061
3You're too dogmatic about dogmas , I am afraid. [855 words]IanusDec 30, 2011 15:37192061
13The Parthenon Mosque [533 words]IanusDec 30, 2011 18:03192061
2Not Always The Case [145 words]BB KingDec 30, 2011 21:13192061
Intolerance [303 words]Ronald NgDec 30, 2011 21:24192061
Fighting Turkish Barbarity [138 words]7A3Jan 1, 2012 08:55192061
6When burning a book fails, then maybe converting it to Islam will be worth trying ? [785 words]IanusJan 1, 2012 16:48192061
7Missing sense of proportions and time [1047 words]IanusJan 1, 2012 19:33192061
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Still Not Always the Case [152 words]BB KingJan 1, 2012 22:59192061
3Fighting Turkish barbarity [94 words]IanusJan 2, 2012 17:04192061
1The choices... [49 words]Amin RiazJan 3, 2012 21:22192061
5Good news from Saudi Arabia : In 500 years witches will no longer be hunted and executed there ! [1159 words]IanusJan 5, 2012 10:42192061
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8Aristotle vs. Allah [1502 words]IanusJan 6, 2012 10:16192061
3Not the Case Again [560 words]BB KingJan 7, 2012 00:39192061
8How many people did Mahommet kill? [873 words]IanusJan 7, 2012 14:27192061
3"He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." [1714 words]IanusJan 8, 2012 10:10192061
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To Assume [5 words]Amin RiazJan 9, 2012 22:45192061
Oh the Irony and Other Observations [444 words]BB KingJan 10, 2012 01:18192061
Answering Your Question [255 words]BB KingJan 10, 2012 01:49192061
5There is nothing hilarious or ironic in cultural nihilism which you represent . [1703 words]IanusJan 11, 2012 15:47192061
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3Feel free to circumvent also these questions ! [2237 words]IanusJan 13, 2012 11:18192061
3Do not trust anybody ! Rely on your ignorance ! [1443 words]IanusJan 13, 2012 13:26192061
Historical Revisionism Part 1 [312 words]BB KingJan 13, 2012 19:26192061
Cognitive Dissonance [168 words]BB KingJan 13, 2012 20:12192061
4"Don't trust your eyes!Trust mine!" [614 words]IanusJan 15, 2012 15:34192061
1Cognitive harmony between not knowing and not realizing one's not knowing [642 words]IanusJan 15, 2012 17:19192061
2Historical Revisionism Part 2 [421 words]BB KingJan 15, 2012 17:33192061
3The mystery of "the unusual depth ... of Lincoln's Christian perception" [772 words]IanusJan 16, 2012 07:40192061
Historical Revisionism Part 3 [443 words]BB KingJan 16, 2012 21:10192061
3The wasteland of whose imagination ? [1070 words]IanusJan 18, 2012 14:31192061
1I think you are onto something [168 words]Peter HallFeb 3, 2012 09:50192061
1Did you hear about ... [181 words]Amin RiazFeb 3, 2012 17:52192061
1Amin, you make a great victim [470 words]Peter HallFeb 4, 2012 20:25192061
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8Islam's Destruction of Everything Beautiful [134 words]RobinDec 27, 2011 00:38192059
4You beat me to it, Robin [119 words]DEBORAH THE JUDGEDec 27, 2011 23:30192059
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6Copts are the true Egyptians [106 words]IanusDec 28, 2011 18:52192059
3Only the Koran worth knowing ... [116 words]RobinDec 29, 2011 01:30192059
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L'Institut d' Égypte [41 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
hans GuggenheimDec 27, 2011 00:34192058
7"If those books are in agreement with the Quran, we have no need of them. And if they are opposed to the Quran, destroy them!" [517 words]IanusDec 28, 2011 13:35192058
Library of Alexandria [5343 words]Mark BorowskyJan 25, 2020 13:31192058
1Peace Treaty is ultimate target [18 words]P RoseDec 26, 2011 23:41192057
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4Cyprus [55 words]NikkiDec 26, 2011 23:12192056
8Sibel Edmonds will best explain to you why Turkish barbarity has never been punished. [445 words]IanusDec 28, 2011 14:37192056
1Happy 2012 , Ianus [213 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 7, 2012 21:52192056
4No reason for a Moslem to complain [415 words]IanusJan 11, 2012 17:21192056
1Dear Mr. Ianus [420 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 15, 2012 23:16192056
9An easy way to Islamize Eastern Europe = Saudi bribes +US pressure+Turkish jihad [745 words]IanusJan 22, 2012 09:08192056
Dear Mr. Ianus [138 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 24, 2012 22:26192056
3Cleptocracy [972 words]IanusJan 26, 2012 13:08192056
Dear Mr. Ianus I support you on this [371 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 31, 2012 12:03192056
1Re: An easy way to Islamize Eastern Europe = Saudi bribes +US pressure+Turkish jihad [40 words]NikJul 29, 2012 20:14192056

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