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Dear Shishir

Reader comment on item: L'Institut d'Égypte – In Memoriam
in response to reader comment: Response to dhimmi/Islamist apologist Debanjan

Submitted by Debanjan Banerjee (India), Jan 11, 2012 at 02:26

Shishir: You mentioned previously that you read Spengler.If you did you need not ask me why Egyptians turned religious with a vengeance.It is their simply inability to come to terms with modernity-Egyptians or other Arabs for that matter tried nationalism-fail.Tried pan Arab nationalism-failure again.Attempts at socialism-we all know how that went!So the Muslim groups made a persuasive though flawed argument that Arabs are backward and lose wars against infidels because they are not religious enough.After all Arabs were kicking a$$ and taking names shortly after Muhammads death from China to Spain.You couple that with petrodollars from the more observant GCC states and you have a thoroughly retrograde and regressive socio-political system.

Shishir , both Spengler and you are too simplistic in your views regarding the rise of religious movements in the West Asian region. First of all , the rise of secular and nationalistic movements had in their origins an urge to copy the West and create secular , nation-states based upon ethnic and linguistic exclusivity. This approach was copied from West in order to mimic the success of Western nation states. \

Two key ingredients were missing in the Arab approach which resulted in the faliure of the Arab approaches to build secular , homogeneous nation states. The success of the West to create homogeneous nation states had a lot to do with the creation of their financial wealth thanks to their empire building efforts in the past. The Arab nationalists never had access to that types of financial wealth due to their inabilities to create vast empires alike the Western elites.

SHishir : Islam being universal religion had no such restrictions.

America , UK , France all have universal expansionary wishes. Judeo-Christianity do have tremendous wills of expansion and it is expanding profusely in Africa and Latin America. Only now in the 21-st century , since the heart of Judeo-Christianity has weakened with the lose of the Western empires , the efforts to expand Judeo-Christianity around the World is floundering.

Another point here is that the Arab elites unlike the Western elites who were largely able to co-opt the religious institutions as well as the Middle classes in their countries into supporting their systems , largely failed to co-opt their urban middle classes who continue to identify their identities in terms of Islamic belief systems.

These authoritarian states were also propped up by the West in order to either loot their oil wealth as in the case of Iran , Libya or Iraq or to dilute Islam as any relevant factor in the life of the Muslims as in Egypt or Tunisia. However the authoritarian nationalisms that you mention were at best efforts by the elites to remake themselves aka West which as you mention have failed. The Western elites have also never considered the secular-minded Arab elites as anything other than useful pawns to be used for purposes like those to be used against the Soviets or to extract oil. Whenever the secular-minded Arab nationalists tried to pose independent postures , the West destroyed them as in the case of Saddam , Qaddafi , Mossadegh or Mubarak.

So the lessons that need to be learnt from the fall of the Arab autocracies is that so-called modernist Western concepts like nation-state and secularism do not work in terms of the Muslims.

What works is an ideology which can bring people from different backgrounds and classes as well as linguistic background together and in the case of West Asia that is Islam. That is why Islam is again becoming influential since it never went away.

Shishir : Furthermore Israel had always very modest aspirations whose limits of their holy land was proscribed by their God.Islam being universal religion had no such restrictions

Again you are living in an world of illusion. Israelis always wanted to conquer all the lands between the river Nile and the river Tigris i.e. from Egypt to Iraq. Have you ever wondered what the two blue lines represent in the Israeli flag. It is the Palestinians whose struggle have coaxed the Israelis to settle within the holy lands for the time being. However Muslims should not be satisfied with it.

Submitting....

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Reader comments (103) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
1Destruction of historical artifacts [77 words]jeanFeb 19, 2012 02:19193485
Muslims not capable of "hate" [412 words]Dan B.Feb 8, 2012 16:30193217
Are today's egyptians a civilization? [142 words]WalberJan 23, 2012 05:21192743
3Upsetting but not surprising [68 words]saraJan 13, 2012 18:05192569
1Just to clarify [25 words]Bernard ZimmermanJan 6, 2012 20:10192350
6Why would a mob destroy a thing of beauty? [283 words]PrashantDec 29, 2011 05:06192124
2Deliberate Defilement [80 words]Garry LockwoodJan 3, 2012 01:27192124
D. B. [75 words]The West becoming Islam's fire hydrantFeb 8, 2012 16:59192124
4Does this signal a shift in self perception of Egyptian identity? [566 words]ShishirDec 28, 2011 04:41192089
1My response to Shishir [344 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 7, 2012 22:11192089
3Response to dhimmi/Islamist apologist Debanjan [738 words]ShishirJan 9, 2012 05:57192089
1Dear Shishir [695 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 11, 2012 02:26192089
3Nile to Euphrates Israel,Mossadegh is an Arab,Islam unites Arabs and other nuggets of wisdom from Debanjan [574 words]ShishirJan 12, 2012 09:39192089
Dear Mr. Shishir [1172 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 16, 2012 00:12192089
More drivel from Debanjan [1357 words]ShishirJan 19, 2012 12:54192089
1Dear Mr. Shishir [1227 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 21, 2012 22:30192089
Debanjan claims he is the next Theodor Herzl [1847 words]ShishirJan 29, 2012 13:19192089
1My dear Shishir [849 words]Debanjan BanerjeeFeb 2, 2012 02:48192089
3At it again Debanjee? [839 words]Peter HallFeb 3, 2012 09:38192089
1My Answers to you. Mr. Hall [1205 words]Debanjan BanerjeeFeb 21, 2012 23:03192089
3Debanjee, you are hilarious [925 words]Peter HallFeb 22, 2012 19:25192089
Banning burkhas in publicc is justified [47 words]PrashantFeb 24, 2012 09:09192089
Dear MR. Prashant [106 words]Debanjan BanerjeeFeb 24, 2012 22:19192089
1Another square peg in a round hole Debanjee? [341 words]Peter HallFeb 26, 2012 08:25192089
Banerjee won't understand and switch the topic [135 words]PrashantFeb 26, 2012 10:16192089
1Dear Mr. Hall [824 words]Debanjan BanerjeeFeb 27, 2012 23:22192089
5The Core for Burning is in First pillar of Islam [75 words]Michael Hanni MorcosDec 27, 2011 21:39192081
Erase and Control [113 words]Jay1Dec 27, 2011 19:59192078
2Very very Proud [108 words]Michael Hanni MorcosDec 27, 2011 17:18192075
Where can the interview be viewed? [53 words]ShishirDec 28, 2011 07:14192075
2Very very Rusty [94 words]Michael Hanni MorcosDec 29, 2011 00:03192075
1Burn the library! [43 words]Martin H. KatchenDec 27, 2011 12:10192073
1Assaulting History [43 words]Georga CollinsDec 27, 2011 11:13192071
4Who controls the past controls the future. [99 words]IanusDec 28, 2011 14:53192071
But it did pose a threat. [67 words]JeffDec 31, 2011 14:50192071
2French government does not learn! [62 words]Gudrun EussnerDec 27, 2011 10:34192068
5The destruction of the Egyptian historical record [135 words]Saul KellyDec 27, 2011 09:51192067
1islamic stagnation [56 words]steve omaraFeb 2, 2012 23:09192067
2Return of "looted arts" to their countries of origin [208 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Ronald ngDec 27, 2011 02:32192061
3What to loan Egypt. [17 words]Jon, a Brit in EurolandDec 28, 2011 10:15192061
2Mo vs. Mao [184 words]IanusDec 28, 2011 15:18192061
1Interesting perspective [151 words]Kepha HorDec 28, 2011 20:48192061
Destructions of Works of Art [157 words]Ronald NgDec 28, 2011 22:36192061
1You are right [139 words]Ronald NgDec 29, 2011 20:30192061
3You're too dogmatic about dogmas , I am afraid. [855 words]IanusDec 30, 2011 15:37192061
13The Parthenon Mosque [533 words]IanusDec 30, 2011 18:03192061
2Not Always The Case [145 words]BB KingDec 30, 2011 21:13192061
Intolerance [303 words]Ronald NgDec 30, 2011 21:24192061
Fighting Turkish Barbarity [138 words]7A3Jan 1, 2012 08:55192061
6When burning a book fails, then maybe converting it to Islam will be worth trying ? [785 words]IanusJan 1, 2012 16:48192061
7Missing sense of proportions and time [1047 words]IanusJan 1, 2012 19:33192061
Putting things into perspective [283 words]Ronald Paul NgJan 1, 2012 21:28192061
Still Not Always the Case [152 words]BB KingJan 1, 2012 22:59192061
3Fighting Turkish barbarity [94 words]IanusJan 2, 2012 17:04192061
1The choices... [49 words]Amin RiazJan 3, 2012 21:22192061
5Good news from Saudi Arabia : In 500 years witches will no longer be hunted and executed there ! [1159 words]IanusJan 5, 2012 10:42192061
Dogma [216 words]Ronald NgJan 5, 2012 21:46192061
8Aristotle vs. Allah [1502 words]IanusJan 6, 2012 10:16192061
3Not the Case Again [560 words]BB KingJan 7, 2012 00:39192061
8How many people did Mahommet kill? [873 words]IanusJan 7, 2012 14:27192061
3"He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." [1714 words]IanusJan 8, 2012 10:10192061
1So there is just one muslim voice... [53 words]car313Jan 9, 2012 11:35192061
To Assume [5 words]Amin RiazJan 9, 2012 22:45192061
Oh the Irony and Other Observations [444 words]BB KingJan 10, 2012 01:18192061
Answering Your Question [255 words]BB KingJan 10, 2012 01:49192061
5There is nothing hilarious or ironic in cultural nihilism which you represent . [1703 words]IanusJan 11, 2012 15:47192061
Changing the Goal Post [617 words]BB KingJan 11, 2012 19:10192061
3Feel free to circumvent also these questions ! [2237 words]IanusJan 13, 2012 11:18192061
3Do not trust anybody ! Rely on your ignorance ! [1443 words]IanusJan 13, 2012 13:26192061
Historical Revisionism Part 1 [312 words]BB KingJan 13, 2012 19:26192061
Cognitive Dissonance [168 words]BB KingJan 13, 2012 20:12192061
4"Don't trust your eyes!Trust mine!" [614 words]IanusJan 15, 2012 15:34192061
1Cognitive harmony between not knowing and not realizing one's not knowing [642 words]IanusJan 15, 2012 17:19192061
2Historical Revisionism Part 2 [421 words]BB KingJan 15, 2012 17:33192061
3The mystery of "the unusual depth ... of Lincoln's Christian perception" [772 words]IanusJan 16, 2012 07:40192061
Historical Revisionism Part 3 [443 words]BB KingJan 16, 2012 21:10192061
3The wasteland of whose imagination ? [1070 words]IanusJan 18, 2012 14:31192061
1I think you are onto something [168 words]Peter HallFeb 3, 2012 09:50192061
1Did you hear about ... [181 words]Amin RiazFeb 3, 2012 17:52192061
1Amin, you make a great victim [470 words]Peter HallFeb 4, 2012 20:25192061
Just to add [237 words]Peter HallFeb 4, 2012 20:53192061
8Islam's Destruction of Everything Beautiful [134 words]RobinDec 27, 2011 00:38192059
4You beat me to it, Robin [119 words]DEBORAH THE JUDGEDec 27, 2011 23:30192059
Robin from Australia is right [83 words]TedDec 28, 2011 09:45192059
6Copts are the true Egyptians [106 words]IanusDec 28, 2011 18:52192059
3Only the Koran worth knowing ... [116 words]RobinDec 29, 2011 01:30192059
Copts [142 words]DEBORAH THE JUDGEDec 29, 2011 20:15192059
2It is always Relative to the Time [121 words]Michael Hanni MorcosDec 31, 2011 12:59192059
You are right Deborah [125 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 7, 2012 22:01192059
L'Institut d' Égypte [41 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
hans GuggenheimDec 27, 2011 00:34192058
6"If those books are in agreement with the Quran, we have no need of them. And if they are opposed to the Quran, destroy them!" [517 words]IanusDec 28, 2011 13:35192058
1Peace Treaty is ultimate target [18 words]P RoseDec 26, 2011 23:41192057
What "peace" treaty [96 words]ShishirDec 28, 2011 04:48192057
4Cyprus [55 words]NikkiDec 26, 2011 23:12192056
8Sibel Edmonds will best explain to you why Turkish barbarity has never been punished. [445 words]IanusDec 28, 2011 14:37192056
1Happy 2012 , Ianus [213 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 7, 2012 21:52192056
4No reason for a Moslem to complain [415 words]IanusJan 11, 2012 17:21192056
1Dear Mr. Ianus [420 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 15, 2012 23:16192056
9An easy way to Islamize Eastern Europe = Saudi bribes +US pressure+Turkish jihad [745 words]IanusJan 22, 2012 09:08192056
Dear Mr. Ianus [138 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 24, 2012 22:26192056
3Cleptocracy [972 words]IanusJan 26, 2012 13:08192056
Dear Mr. Ianus I support you on this [371 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 31, 2012 12:03192056
1Re: An easy way to Islamize Eastern Europe = Saudi bribes +US pressure+Turkish jihad [40 words]NikJul 29, 2012 20:14192056

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Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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