HELLO AGAIN, JUDGE
Submitted by DANIEL REDMOND (United States), Dec 5, 2009 at 09:18
Hi Deborah: Well, I do find it interesting that someone who refers to those who she disagrees with as being "gutless, godless creeps who infest our government" now accuses me of having no sense of humor. I'm wondering, what are you like when you're being serious?
Okay, let me address your most recent assertions one-by-one:
1) Yes, fleeing from Catholic oppression was a prime motivator for colonists to leave Europe. Some undoubtedly also fled the oppression of the Church of England and other variants of Christianity found in other countries. They all erected crosses and they all considered themselves to be Christians, get it? Ask a Catholic if they are Christian and listen to what they say? Ever been to a Catholic church? There are crosses all over the place. You apparently believe that the Prostestant spin-off of Christianity is the "true" Christianity. Catholics think that they are the true Christians. And throughout history these several varieties of Christians have done what they do best; persecute other people, including other Christians. I don't "hate" Christianity but I think it's all rather bogus and I don't believe in any of it.
2) It doesn't matter how many crosses were erected in 1607 by Protestant colonists. There was no United States of America in 1607. They were settlers in a new land which was, at that time, claimed by England. The United States of America as a Nation did not come into being until the ratification of our Constitution in 1787 nearly two centuries later and it is the U.S. Constitution that is our Governing Document, not the Bible.
3) You insist that because the term "year of our Lord" was in common usage that this established the United States as a Christian theocracy. You are grasping at straws here with the flimsiest possible claim for establishment of a "Christian nation." Nowhere in our Constitution are the words "Christianity" or "Jesus" or "religion" or "God" ever mentioned, with the singular exception that a reference to "religion" is made in the First Amendment specifically to prohibit government from establishing a 'state religion.' In other words, the only reference to anything having to do with religion is in exclusionary terms to prevent the creation of a theocracy. Hence, we are not now, nor have we ever been, officially a "Christian nation."
4) You fall into the common misconception of assuming that those men known as the Founding Fathers of our nation were all devout Christians. This is untrue. While most of them believed in a Creator they were generally Diests, not Theists, and did not believe in the Christian concept of a personal God that intervened in human affairs. I am speaking of such men as George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison and Thomas Paine. Don't believe me? The religious skepticism of these men has been well-established by historians of the period. Here are a few documented quotes from these several Founding Fathers:
"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause." - George Washington (who incidentally never joined a church or took communion, or even requested a priest on his deathbed)
"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." AND "The question before the human race is whether the God of Nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by ficticious miracles." - John Adams (2nd president of the United States)
"Question with reason even the existence of a God; because if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." AND "History, I believe, furnishs no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government." - Thomas Jefferson (3rd president of the United States)
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." AND "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people." - James Madison (4th president of the United States)
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turn been perscutors, and complained of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Roman Church, but practiced it on Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both in England and New England."
- Benjamin Franklin
"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst." AND "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. Each of these churches accuse the other of unbelief. and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." - Thomas Paine
I think is pretty clear that these well-known founders of our nation held a rather dim and skeptical view of organized religion, whether it be Catholicism or Protestantism, and they deliberately crafted a governing document that prevented the welding of church and state. They were smart enough to realize that you cannot have freedom of religion without first having freedom from religion, because once any religion becomes affixed to government it will undertake to persecute all others out of existence. The very fact that you want to claim your own Protestant faith as a national religion simply demonstrates how inevitable that outcome would be.
You may not believe it but as much as I wish religions would simply disappear---as the anachronistic holdovers of more primitive times that they truly are---I would actively protest any attempt by our government to ban Christianity. (I would accept a ban on Islam because Islam itself refuses to tolerate religious freedom.) I don't want to force other people to think anything. Let them believe in whatever they want. I just don't want their beliefs thrust upon me.
5) Last but not least, your demands and assertions regarding the legitimacy of Obama's presidency are absurd. There is no record of his mother being outside the confines of the United States at the time of his birth. Issues of the Harvard Law Review when he was editor-in-chief are a matter of public record and there is no need for him to "provide" them to the public, as they are already available to the public. His passport travel history, medical records and "kindergarten" history have all been thoroughly reviewed by the FBI, journalists, etc. Accept it; he's the president and he'd going to be there for at least one term whether you like it or not.
Of course, you can pray for him to quit the job but prayers generally don't result in anything but wind and words and wasting a few minutes of your time because, guess what, there's probably nobody listening to them.
- DANIEL [in the Lion's Den of Christianity]
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