RE: M Tovey

Submitted by Nura (United States), Oct 24, 2008 at 19:38

scholars who did not believe either, much like the Jesus Seminar of today. But if it is recognized that the prophecies of Yeshua HaMashiach are resident in the Holy Bible, and the Brit Hadassah carries the majority of the fulfillments, such as found in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, then we must understand that those who would try and find fault with those resources do so because they have decided not to believe, if for no other reason than human logic cannot make any sense of Heavenly things.

Not only are you oversimplifying the issue, but are evading the relevant discussion of this issue as pertains to Muslims. You damn anyone who questions the validity of not only the doctrine of the trinity, but the accounts of Mark X, Luke X, Mathew X, and John X.

Mathew 7:22

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

I would assume the doctrine of the Trinity went through a barrage of transformations and opponents. The fact that the Socinianism view is older than the Niacine creed and that Unitarian Christians still exist is a testament of the uncorrupted heritage of the Gospel. The trinity was first spoken by Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus. It was his ideology that first used the "persons" of God. It was through this ideology that Constantine decided that the trinity represented Christianity although this term is not found in the Old or New Testament. After much argument the final creed was made:

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father, the only begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance [homoousios] with the Father; by whom all things were made both in heaven and on earth; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man; he suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. And in the Holy Ghost. But those who say: "There was a time when he was not"; and "He was not before he was made"; and "He was made out of nothing," or "He is of another substance" or "essence," or "The Son of God is created," or "changeable," or "alterable"-they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic church."

"The first step of apostasy is to get up a creed, telling us what we shall believe. The second is, to make that creed a test of fellowship. The third is to try members by that creed. The fourth to denounce as heretics those who do not believe that creed. And, fifth, to commence persecution against such", (The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, October 8, 1861)

One of the greatest scandals in human history! Where are these words in the Gospel? Jesus (PBUH) did not teach this. Why were there Christians who opposed this creed? Does this creed sound like the message of Abraham and the tribes?

Did not Jesus warn of false prophets?

Further the addition of the holy sprit in the trinity came about later. The holy sprit was mentioned before the birth of Jesus as Gabriel!

Luke

11Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. 12When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. 13But the angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John. 14He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.^[b] 16Many of the people of Israel will he bring back to the Lord their God. 17And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

18Zechariah asked the angel, "How can I be sure of this? I am an old man and my wife is well along in years."

19The angel answered, "I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news. 20And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their proper time."

Quran

38. At that time Zakariya (Zachariya) invoked his Lord, saying: "O my Lord! Grant me from You, a good offspring. You are indeed the All-Hearer of invocation."

39. Then the angels called him, while he was standing in prayer in Al-Mihrab (a praying place or a private room), (saying): "Allah gives you glad tidings of Yahya (John), confirming (believing in) the Word from Allah [i.e. the creation of 'Iesa (Jesus), the Word from Allah ("Be!" - and he was!)], noble, keeping away from sexual relations with women, a Prophet, from among the righteous."

40. He said: "O my Lord! How can I have a son when I am very old, and my wife is barren?" Allah said: "Thus Allah does what He wills."

41. He said: "O my Lord! Make a sign for me." Allah said: "Your sign is that you shall not speak to mankind for three days except with signals. And remember your Lord much (by praising Him again and again), and glorify (Him) in the afternoon and in the morning."

The Holy Sprit with Mary:

LUKE

26In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

34"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"

35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called^[c] the Son of God. 36Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. 37For nothing is impossible with God."

Quran

3:42 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.

3:45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;

3:46 "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

3:47 She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

It is clear that The Quran is in support that the Holy Sprit was a Angel in both of these circumstances. It is no wonder why it is Jesus who said he would call the holy sprit, who will bring the truth.

John 16

5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt^[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

1. There are many aspects of this statement that needs consideration. The first is the statement that Jesus is going away. It is apparent that he KNEW of his departure before the event of his perceived crucifixion, yet, he did not tell his followers that he would die; only that he was returning to the one who sent him. He said only that they would see them no-longer because his life hang in the balance, not that he would be killed

Note: Jesus prayed to be saved from execution.

(Luke 39Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40On reaching the place, he said to them, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation." 41He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." 43An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.⁾

Interesting correlation:

Sunan Abu Dawud Book 37, Number 4310:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet (pbuh) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (pbuh). He will descend (to the earth). When you see him, recognize him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizya. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him.

Another interesting correlation:

Jesus prayed as Muslims do:

O you who believe! Bow down and prostrate yourselves and serve your Lord, and do good that you may prosper."-(HOLY QURAN 22:77).

"And he (Jesus) went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed..."-(MATTHEW 26:39).

"And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship..."-(JOSHUA 5:14).

"And he (Elijah) cast himself down upon the earth, and put his face between his knees."-(1 KINGS 18:42).

"And they (Moses and Aaron) fell upon their faces..."-(NUMBERS 20:6).

"And Abraham fell on his face..."-(GENESIS 17:3).

Returning to John….

12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

Christians argue that this verse is speaking of the Holy Ghost, however, why would Jesus say the Holy Spirit is coming when he already existed! It is clear that this verse is not speaking of the Holy Ghost. It is speaking of a "he" that will tell the truth of the message of Jesus, a truth that Christians were not ready to hear.

Question: If the spirit of truth was the Holy Ghost, what new truth did he bring to Christendom? The doctrine of the Trinity? This is not possible because it was argued that the perception of the trinity already existed in the Bible.

The Disciples of Christ under the "influence" of the Holy Ghost, did not bring anything new either!! They only wrote the Gospel. Mark, Luke, Mathew, and John, under the influence of the Holy Ghost did not bring anything new, only the oral revelations of the Gospel.

I assume that you believe that you are true disciple of Jesus (PBUH)? What new information has his disciples brought other than the sanctification of same sex-marriage? Which brings me to the issue of the Holy Ghost? If the Holy Ghost guided Mark, Luke, Mathew, and John, then why are the books different and contradictory in some cases? Can the Holy Ghost make errors? Every denomination of Christianity claims to have the Holy Ghost yet they move in completely opposite directions.

The "he", which is singular, in the verse is either the angle Gabriel (Who was the holy spirit who revealed the truth to Zachariah and Mary), or a man influenced by him; a leader who will reveal the truth. Angle Gabriel revealed the truth to Muhammad (PBUH) in the form of the Quran.

Surah Iqra (Read)

Proclaim! In the name of your Lord, who created;

² Created man, out of a clot of congealed blood:

³ Proclaim! And your Lord is most bountiful,

⁴ He who taught you to write,

⁵ Taught man that which he knew not.

⁶ No, but man transgresses all bounds,

⁷ In that he looks upon himself as self-sufficient.

⁸ Truly, to your Lord is the return.

⁹ Do you see one who forbids

¹⁰ A votary when he prays?

¹¹ Do you see if he is guided?

¹² Or enjoins righteousness?

¹³ Do you see if he denies and turns away?

¹⁴ Knows he not that Allah sees?

¹⁵ Let him beware! If he desist not, we will drag him by the forelock,

¹⁶ A lying, sinful forelock!

¹⁷ Then, let him call to his council:

¹⁸ We will call on the angels of punishment!

¹⁹ No, heed him not, but bow down in adoration, and bring yourself closer!

The Angel Gabriel first asked Muhammad (PBUH) to read, he told him that he could not. Upon the third time, he recited the words in this Surah which was revealed to his heart.

Thus, he became the one who spoke what he heard.

The prophet could only speak what he heard for two reasons:

1.) He could not read text, there was no written form of the Quran to read if he could.

2.) The revelations were recited to him from the Angel Gabriel where he would recite what he heard.

It is for these errors and the rejection of the message of Jesus(PBUH) he will say:

Mathew 7

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

25:41

"Then the king will say to those on his left, 'Get away from me! God has cursed you! Go into everlasting fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels!

It is clear from these passages that Jesus is talking to none other than those who call themselves Christians. It is a prophecy of when he returns. The question is then why does Jesus say this?

"O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you tell people: Take me and my mother as gods besides Allah? Then he will say: Glory to you, I could never say what I had no right to say. If I had said it, You would have known it, You know what is within myself, but I do not know what is within Yourself. Verily, You alone are the Knower of the unseen. I did not say to them except what You commanded me; to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness over them as long as I was among them, but when You raised me up, You were the observer over them, and You are the witness over all things."Quran (5:116 - 117

It is clear that this ayah agrees with the biblical stating above. Jesus will distance himself from those who worshiped him.

Maybe, that is the desperation of dogmatic inaccuracies you allude to, for a true disciple can discern what the Holy Spirit is saying in the Holy Bible, and there is no such desperation in that kind of faith.

The desperation will continue as long as these prophesies remain unfulfilled as it is the only affirmation of the statements of the Bible, other than Islam. Islam is the only other religion that affirms that Jesus is the Messiah.

Any student of religion would not ignore the statements in the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) as pertains to Jesus. The ignoring of this knowledge is an injustice in the study of the Abrahamic religions.

I will list a few striking prophesies that is supported by the Bible:

"God will send the Messiah, son of Mary, who will descend at the white minaret on the eastern side of Damascus wearing two garments, lightly dyed with saffron, his hands resting on the wings of two Angels. When he lowers his head, beads of perspiration will fall from it, and when he raises it up, beads like pearls will scatter from it. Every non-believer who smells him will die, and his breath will reach as far as he is able to see." (Saheeh Muslim)

Abu-Hurariah said that the prophet Muhammad said,

"By him in whose hands my soul rests, surely Jesus, Son, of Mary will soon descend amongst you and will judge mankind judiciously, by the law of the Quran, as an honest ruler. He will break the cross, kill the pigs and abolish jizya. Money will abound in such excess that no one will wish to accept it. A single prostration to Allah, in prayer, will be better that the whole world and all it contains."

"And there is none of the people of the book, but must believe in him (i.e. Jesus as an apostle of Allah and a human being), before his death, and on the Day of Judgment, he will be a witness against them." Quran 4/159

Allah's Promise to that mankind will all believe Jesus (PBUH) BEFORE his death.

Jesus as a witness against his people:

"O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you tell people: Take me and my mother as gods besides Allah? Then he will say: Glory to you, I could never say what I had no right to say. If I had said it, You would have known it, You know what is within myself, but I do not know what is within Yourself. Verily, You alone are the Knower of the unseen. I did not say to them except what You commanded me; to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness over them as long as I was among them, but when You raised me up, You were the observer over them, and You are the witness over all things."Quran (5:116 - 117

The neglectful shepherds

Mathew 25:

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Hadith Qudsi 18:

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: Allah (mighty and sublime be He) will say on the Day of Resurrection:

"O son of Adam, I fell ill and you visited Me not. He will say: O Lord, and how should I visit You when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: Did you not know that My servant So-and-so had fallen ill and you visited him not? Did you not know that had you visited him you would have found Me with him? O son of Adam, I asked you for food and you fed Me not. He will say: O Lord, and how should I feed You when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: Did you not know that My servant So-and-so asked you for food and you fed him not? Did you notknow that had you fed him you would surely have found that (the reward for doing so) with Me? O son of Adam, I asked you to give Me to drink and you gave Me not to drink. He will say: O Lord, how should I give You to drink when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: My servant So-and-so asked you to give him to drink and you gave him not to drink. Had you given him to drink you would have surely found that with Me.

The Reign of Jesus, the Prophet of Allah:

Mathew 7:31

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left."

Abu Hurairah (ra) narrated that Allah's Messenger, peace be upon him, said, "By the One in Whose hand is my self, definitely the son of Maryam will soon descend among you as a just judge, and he will break the cross, kill the pig and abolish the jizyah, and wealth will be so abundant that no one will accept it, until a single prostration will be better than the world and everything in it. (Sahih al-Bukhari)

Jabir ibn 'Abdullah said, "I heard the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, saying, 'A party of my ummah will never stop fighting for the truth victoriously until the Day of Rising.' He said, 'Then 'Isa ibn Maryam, peace be upon him, will descend and their amir will say, "Come and lead us in prayer," but he will say, "No! some of you are amirs over others," as Allah's showing honour to this ummah.'"

Hudhayfah ibn Usayd al-Ghifari said, "The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) came to us all of a sudden as we were (busy in a discussion). He said: 'What are you discussing?' We said: 'We are discussing the Last Hour.' Thereupon he said: 'It will not come until you see ten signs before it' – and (in this connection) he made mention of the smoke, the Dajjal, the beast, the rising of the sun from the west, the descent of 'Isa the son of Maryam (pbuh), Yajuj and Majuj, and landslides in three places, one in the east, one in the west and one in Arabia at the end of which fire will burn forth from the Yemen, and drive people to the place of their assembly." (Sahih Muslim)

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