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Humbled Infidel Gets an Explanation From Honourable Tariq!

Reader comment on item: What Jewish Ties to Jerusalem?
in response to reader comment: Humbled Infidel Requests Explanation From Honourable Tariq

Submitted by tariq (Pakistan), Aug 3, 2006 at 04:06

"I understand that as a Muslim you are not required to respond with proof or real information to Infidel questions or statements and of course Muslims are never wrong."

Apparently u are one of those ppl who have been fed so many lies, distortions, and fake testimonies that u have have begun to think that each and every muslim(all 1.6 b) think and work exactly the same way; they all blindly follow their religions.

many christians are like that. they say "the Quran is wrong cuz it disagrees with the bible" or "jesus was crucified because the bible says so" or "the Quran is wrong cuz the bible is right, the bible is right because the Quran is wrong"

i have read such arguments. i chat on paltalk. when i have a non hostile discusion such as the one i am having here, i get these type of responses. they say that christians are always right.

try to understand that not everybody in this world really stops to ponder y they should follow their religion. most ppl are like that; they are not very learned about their religion and therefore not able to answer objections by followers of other religions.

but i am not like that. im a skeptic. i doubt everything. and if it wasnt for this parlicular very learned islamic scholar, i MAY have been an atheist right now.

"And that is why, when you responded to my comment, you made some assertions, but of course provided no proof."

if u have read my previous comments, u'll know that i can provide quite convincing arguments. u wrote ur comment on june 27 mine was up on aug 1, so i just wanted to know whether u are monitoring this post or not. now that i have ur attention, ill give u an explanation.

"Therefore should you allow yourself to condescend to my level and respond, please tell me how the earth can be a circle and not a sphere?"

u have a CD any where near? take a look at it.

is it a circle? yes?

is it flat? yes? Oh my GOd! What a Miracle!!

"Secondly, how do you explain Aya 18:86, the Blessed Qur'an translated by J.M. Rodwell.

Blessed Qur'an: Aya 18:86 Until when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it to set in a miry fount; and hard by he found a people."

there is no such thing as a translation of the Quran. its an interepretation. also y do u quote rodwell? hes not exactly famous for being accurate.

"And now from copy of Holy Qur'an from Internet:

Aya 18:86 Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness.""

this is an interpretation of abdullah yousef ali. has some mistakes in it, but most parts are very accurate.

Before i give an explanation, a couple of bible verses:

Are they not on the other side Jordan, by the way where the sun goeth down, in the land of the Canaanites, which dwell in the champaign over against Gilgal, beside the plains of Moreh? (Deuteronomy 11:30)

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars (Revelation 12:1)

Now lets look at the verses in CONTEXT,(which im sure u never did):

[018:084] Verily We established his power on earth, and We gave him the ways and the means to all ends.

[018:085] One (such) way he followed,

[018:086] Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."

[018:087] He said: "Whoever doth wrong, him shall we punish; then shall he be sent back to his Lord; and He will punish him with a punishment unheard-of (before).

[018:088] "But whoever believes, and works righteousness,- he shall have a goodly reward, and easy will be his task as We order it by our Command."

[018:089] Then followed he (another) way,

[018:090] Until, when he came to the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no covering protection against the sun.

the above is a yousef ali translation(its understood that we mean interpretation)

note the verses:

"Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set"


018:089] Then followed he (another) way,

[018:090] Until, when he came to the rising of the sun, he found it rising

now i will quote u quoting me:

"Please read the above AYA's and THINK! THINK HARD!'.

so wot do u think?

is it possible? can u see a sunset and at the same time see a surise at a different place on a flat earth?

ofcourse u cant, not on a flat earth but a SPHERE. the Quran tells us of a story of dhulqarnain who goes to a certain place and there he sees the sun setting in water. then he follows another way and sees the sun rising. flat earth any1?

if the earth was flat, then the sun would be 'under' the earth. and their would be no sunrise for quite sometime. in that case the Quran would have to see that dhulqarnain waited for sometime for the sun to come up. it wouldnt see he TRAVELLED. this implies that the 'setting of the sun' is ACTUALLY A PLACE and not JUST TIME. indeed another meaning of the word maghrib(the arabic word used in this verse) is west.

but ofcourse this also means that the quran speaks of the time of sunset as well. the word translated as 'reached' is balagha

heres another usage of this word:

Then, when (the son) reached (balagha) (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if God so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!" (37:102)

tell me, how many steps do u take to become 10 years older?

when it says 'he reached' it denotes time, and 'the setting of the sun' is a western place that he reached.

now this leaves me with one problem; "he found it set in a spring of murky water"

And heres the solution:

notice that it says he found it. in english this gives the false impression that dhulqarnain really found the sun in the water. but in arabic, it show his point of view.

it tells us what HE saw. strange isnt it that God should tell us an event of history, and suddently change its tone to tell us wot the other person saw and not wot happened. notice that the quran tells us of an event as if it is an observer, but wen it comes to sun set, suddenly tells us wot dhulqarnain saw, and not wot happened.(according to M Asad, a well known scholar on islam, 'he found' can also be translated as he saw, or it appeared to him)

now lets look at some detailed meanings of this verse:

"He probably reached shore of the ocean and saw it like that because there was but water at the furthest of his sight that's why He says "he found it set" and does not say "it sets"."

(Al-Baidawi, Anwar-ut-Tanzil wa Asrar-ut-Taw'il)

""he found it set in a spring of murky water" means he saw the sun according to his vision setting in the ocean and this is the same with everyone ending to the shore seeing as if the sun sets inside it (i.e. the ocean)."

(Tafsir Ibn Kathir)

Do a yahoo search for tafseers, ibn kathirs tafseer should not be difficult to find. and remember that ibn katheer was born in 701 AH, back wen they thought that the earth is flat.

I'll be waiting for your reply.


Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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Reader comments (111) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
The Jewish heart and mind is eternally connected to Jerusalem and Israel for thousands of years [430 words]YJ DraimanMay 15, 2015 14:59223374
1Jerusalem! [29 words]IreneJan 20, 2009 10:08148510
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Stephen Phillips [11 words]Ibrahim AliOct 14, 2006 16:3759888
Ibrahim Ali [19 words]AlexanderOct 15, 2006 07:4759888
Muslims simply covet Jerusalem. They have no attachment to it [38 words]Stephen PhillipsOct 15, 2006 19:4759888
JEWISH TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM MENTIONED IN qURAN [137 words]xanga.com/ShlomoZalmanOct 7, 2009 11:1659888
JEWISH TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM MENTIONED IN qURAN [17 words]xanga.com/ShlomoZalmanOct 7, 2009 11:1959888
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jerusalem if i forget you my right hand forget me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [125 words]ashumarApr 22, 2010 09:5859888
about your comment [57 words]Michael ROct 13, 2010 10:4959888
Islam-an evolving religion [115 words]DallasJul 5, 2006 10:4348920
Jerusalem is a Jewish city [112 words]Frederick BainhauerJul 3, 2006 23:0248819
1If Jerusalem belongs to Muslims , then Mecca belongs to Jews [34 words]John ChristianJul 2, 2006 01:1148705
A very narrow minded opinion John [135 words]AudreyJun 7, 2007 22:1548705
Sorry, but you have your history wrong [258 words]KevinAug 19, 2007 11:2348705
Whose land? [169 words]H LaFeverSep 20, 2007 19:0648705
so biased [42 words]ConcernedtothismyfriendMay 24, 2008 20:0548705
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Truth in the Arab World [232 words]Peter IrwinJun 29, 2006 16:0548449
Follow-up to my previous comment [297 words]Peter IrwinJun 30, 2006 06:5048449
Isn't some of this related to their Religion? [219 words]J.S.Jun 27, 2006 16:0048273
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Jewish vs. Arab/Muslim claims to Jerusalem [57 words]MosheJun 24, 2006 18:2848120
JEWS VS ARABS [17 words]KevinMar 21, 2007 18:4248120
We should see the reality in our face [120 words]GuestJul 8, 2008 12:4248120
ALLLAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [11 words]jalaalJan 7, 2009 10:0048120
Jerusalem or Jerushalom!! the war between the gods [406 words]HarrakJun 24, 2006 02:0248105
Harrak, you have to try a little harder! [544 words]MosheJun 25, 2006 05:5548105
History through the Bible. [191 words]YovenJun 26, 2006 10:5548105
Trying Harder..uh! [291 words]HarrakJun 26, 2006 11:0548105
Harrak, Bible's Flat Earth Theroy [167 words]InfidelJun 27, 2006 01:0748105
Harrak, we are back to square 1. [127 words]MosheJun 27, 2006 04:2748105
Jerusalem is for Jews and Christains [166 words]AlexJun 27, 2006 12:5648105
alex [105 words]ahmad zahireJun 27, 2006 23:1648105
Ah, Mad Harraknophobia! [333 words]Sword of Islam & The Babies of BeslanJun 28, 2006 21:1548105
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Amen, Moshe! [352 words]EBJun 30, 2006 09:3548105
Don't stop Israel! [39 words]PDMJul 3, 2006 18:3348105
Patriotim 1 Attn: Swords and Moshe [262 words]HARRAKJul 4, 2006 00:1848105
Harrak, your ignorant comments are indeed below the mark. [39 words]MosheJul 5, 2006 10:5248105
Moshe :) [18 words]true believerJul 6, 2006 11:2948105
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to infidel: Bible, Quran and the flat earth [67 words]tariqAug 1, 2006 14:4348105
Humbled Infidel Requests Explanation From Honourable Tariq [191 words]InfidelAug 1, 2006 20:0848105
Humbled Infidel Gets an Explanation From Honourable Tariq! [1375 words]tariqAug 3, 2006 04:0648105
Honourable Tariq's Explanation Leaves Infidel With Headache [537 words]InfidelAug 4, 2006 01:1048105
Honourable Tariq's Explanation Too Complicated for Infidel to Understand [1704 words]tariqAug 5, 2006 03:3948105
Holy Qur'an, Book of Scientific Information [215 words]InfidelAug 6, 2006 11:3648105
Sarcastic Infidel has no answers [1272 words]tariqAug 7, 2006 05:0648105
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to Farouk [90 words]tariqFeb 14, 2007 08:0948105
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re Judeo Christian Hypo [644 words]true believerJun 30, 2006 09:5048094
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true believer [216 words]ahmad zafireJun 30, 2006 23:1448094
facts for you, Ahmed [999 words]true believerJul 3, 2006 11:3748094
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WHAT YOU LEFT OUT ! [56 words]HARRY STILLMANJun 21, 2006 00:3747948
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Dan, you are absolutely correct.... [16 words]MosheJun 25, 2006 08:4347935

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