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True Understanding About Israel's Place in the World Requires True Understanding of the Holy Bible - You Want Answers? Guess Where They Are.

Reader comment on item: Accepting Israel as the Jewish State[: Public Opinion in Four Arab Countries]
in response to reader comment: My Answers - part two

Submitted by M. Tovey (United States), Jun 21, 2010 at 16:44

For the sake of limited time and the necessity of brevity, the earlier response to this was shortened and did not address the fully the characterizations represented in this previous post. So this may be regarded as a continuation, though there is the resurgence of the earlier question, of the need for this dialogue, or in simpler terms, what is the need for your persistence to undermine the Truth of the Holy Bible, and of your attempt to pursue the triviata of unbelief for its own sake.

Earlier, you try an attempt to associate my faith with that of the Roman Catholic Church, of even making it out like I have some supernatural reverence for the head of the Roman Catholic Church. If this is the basis for your attempts at castigating Christianity as a whole, then I can now understand your attitude towards the west as a whole, and your demeaning attitude towards Israel as well. My perspective of the Roman Catholic Church stems from a world view that though started in the Roman Catholic mentality, was ripped away from it by the internal teachings that contradict the Holy Bible. Of such is your quote, "Faith without reason is dangerous:" to whom? And whose reasoning do I believe is the most Biblical? We'll leave that there for the time being.

In your assertion that Islam is embraced by the Judeo-Christian beginnings, you err again. Provision is made for religious expression of the individual, but embracing religion is still the individual's prerogative, and Congress (and the Judiciary is supposed to refrain as well) is instructed from making any intrusions into one's beliefs, within the framework as espoused by the framers. The abuse of that in the current context of whose religion is better, or the absence of one's religious preference is at the core of this country's dilemma, what to do about those that would impose their beliefs, such as we see Islam doing in Saudi Arabia. Since I've already explained this one before, your allegation of my ignoring it is superfluous, for you have chosen to not to accept this on the basis of the valid exposition previously offered.

Your comment about Paul not meeting Abraham or Moses can be sufficiently answered from a verse in the Holy Bible, which in its explanation by Jesus Christ, says that no other man except Jesus Christ has done it either. I'll take Jesus Christ's word on that one.

Conversion in the Biblical realm of faith means that one has acknowledged the WORD of the LORD in its conviction of every man, woman and child of sin, of the need for a Savior to be the substitutionary agent for the payment of death for our sinfulness. Conversion requires that a regeneration in the Spirit has happened and that a new life with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as promised by Jesus Christ has occurred. The Islamic Prophet says he has no such relationship through Jesus Christ, thus no conversion for him.

Let us suppose for a moment, and if I am allowed to advance the idea of the Islamic Prophet converting, since the Southern Baptist convention, or any other modern denomination was not in evidence at that time, it would be inappropriate to assume that joining that communion was even possible…be serious. By the time of the Islamic Prophet, the religious expressions of Christianity had already factionalized itself so much that it is a reasonable situation to expect that he could not make heads or tails of it all, unless he took the time to read the original manuscripts and come to a saving knowledge. By your own assertion and that of so many others, he had not done this; and instead dictated his version of such things, of which you are content to follow. So be it: but do not try and make out like Christianity is something to be adverse to, at least not without understanding what it really means. As to the cathartic experience of the Islamic Prophet's claim of his heavenly encounter, where are his witnesses? When Jesus Christ met with Moses and Elijah in the transfiguration, there were witnesses.

Of the people of Almighty God that were believers prior to the first advent of Jesus Christ, were they Christian in the sense we know a true Christian today? No, absolutely not. But are they believers in faith of the promise that Almighty God made regarding the Anointed One, the Holy One of Israel, of Whom the Scripture wrote of about Yeshua HaMashiach? Absolutely so, for it is of Him the promises were made, from the time of Adam, to Job and Abraham, to Jacob (Israel) through Joseph to Moses, to David and Solomon, to Joseph and Mary in their receiving the WORD in the dream and seeing it fulfilled in their mortal lifetime; then on to the fulfilments of the prophets like Daniel, Isaiah and Ezekiel and others. I could go on and on, but the question is- will you receive it faith like they did?

And we come again to the centerpiece of these series of expositions, of the acceptance of Israel as the Jewish state. I know fully well that Mr. Herzl's utopian (secular) idea was for a place to which people of Jewish heritage could resort in the face of blackballing, discrimination and extermination in their various host nations. They had and have endured expulsions and acts of terror over the centuries and there was the cry to Almighty God to remember His people. And He did, but not the way the Mr. Herzl dreamed. The true Christian evangelical does not support the Israel of Mr. Herzl's exposition, but the Israel of the Biblical exposition. Any other mindset of how it is supposed to turn out is going to be disappointing to those who have had other ideas about who is going to rule in Jerusalem. Christians are NOT going to be instrumental in the establishing the Kingdom in Jerusalem, but we who are true to His WORD are witnesses to when He Who is the true LORD does.

Let us digress to the disposition of the glory of Persia. For starters, Iran cannot hold a candle to Persia, though the Bible says that the problems of the last days will come in part from a former part of Persia. Next, the list of supposed accomplishments you supply of the Islamic Revolutionary Republic of Iran are intangible differences that do not speak to the true meaning of glory; an example being if Islam is universally conciliatory to women being allowed higher education, why do we hear of Afghan schools for girls be attacked and forced to close by the Taliban? Wealth? I am not sure where you are getting your data, or if such data is really telling us the real truth, but it's reported Iran is in a economic crisis that would rival that of United States if taken on a comparative analysis. Given that there is the stated understanding that Iran is working on its nuclear status, then it is conclusive that such endeavors are the most expensive of any endeavor a government can undertake, and you can bet America knows about that better than anyone else.

Surprise about the justice system, I am expecting the designer of true Justice, the True Judge, will reform the world judiciary upon His Arrival, and completely trash the world's corrupted ways. Failure to acknowledge Almighty God and His sense of justice will always be the bane of the human experience, and neither Iran's, nor the former Persian system of justice can compare. And it's not any better here either, for that matter. As for second class citizenship in Iran, you are going to sit at your computer and tell me that dhimmi status is not the reality in an Islamic society that practices the fundamental form of Islam….seriously? So, the former glory of Persia is an expression of the time, that, surprise, Cyrus did receive blessings for allowing the original return of Israel to its land of heritage, and THAT is the glory I am speaking of. Can we say the same thing of Ahmadinejad? I do not think so.

And finally, the Holy Bible says, I will bless those who help you, and curse those who curse you. Draw your own conclusions as you observe how Israel remains in their land, and only as the times of the Gentiles comes to a close do the circumstances of completing the fulfillment of their (Israel's) promise do we see that the remnant spoken in the prophets of are the final inheritors of Abraham's promise. By the way, any truly evangelical believers in Jesus Christ are not expected to be there when it happens, only after it happens.

Submitting....

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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Reader comments (113) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
1"under the right circumstances" [141 words]Howard LaitinJun 3, 2010 00:31173770
1Howard Laitin said it right [174 words]TedAug 6, 2010 02:33173770
boycott of israeli products [33 words]mythMay 30, 2010 16:02173547
Israel is other name for freedom [93 words]Muslimk***May 26, 2010 15:49173427
Israel [81 words]concerned americanMay 18, 2010 18:23173021
Turkey as an ally........... [36 words]JosephJun 7, 2010 04:00173021
The Levant in 2200 [421 words]KMMay 18, 2010 08:31172954
an old brave new world [272 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanMay 19, 2010 06:29172954
Just Recognize It As A Country [17 words]Mark D.May 20, 2010 00:00172954
Flags, etc [762 words]KMMay 20, 2010 04:36172954
1Israel , flags etc [1791 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanMay 21, 2010 05:57172954
p.s. [67 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanMay 21, 2010 06:11172954
some in some out [54 words]mythMay 23, 2010 13:56172954
The Origin of Jews, et al [4578 words]KMJul 7, 2010 10:13172954
From Beyond the Rivers of Ethiopia My Suppliants, Even the Daughter of My Dispersed, Shall Bring Mine Offering. [952 words]M. ToveyJul 20, 2010 14:19172954
You see our crooked paths yet the one you walk twists and turns. [289 words]LynnJul 22, 2010 08:04172954
response [72 words]RonaldSep 14, 2010 12:15172954
no historical ties ? [110 words]mythMay 16, 2010 15:27172747
Might as well accept it... [163 words]CW OrangeMay 16, 2010 04:08172741
Why Is Recognition Held Out As So Important Even Compared To Ending Violence? [58 words]MarsdMay 16, 2010 02:29172738
Why is accepting or recognizing Israel so important? [29 words]mythMay 29, 2010 07:17172738
The muslims will never accept Israel as a JEWISH STATE, they have said so, and the koran says so ! [213 words]Phil GreendMay 14, 2010 23:33172713
2The Qur'an is a Jewish Book [104 words]RadiateTruthJun 1, 2010 18:57172713
No surprise [78 words]Katherine McLeanMay 12, 2010 19:15172635
Arabs & Jews in Israel need to know what their scriptures say. [37 words]M.DMay 11, 2010 17:20172585
Re: Accepting Isreal as Jewish State [42 words]AbuuHaleemMay 12, 2010 16:33172585
What "Allah" really said about Jerusalem & Israel. [221 words]M.D.May 13, 2010 11:38172585
1Accepting the Truth of an Israeli Jewish State [385 words]M. ToveyMay 11, 2010 16:51172583
1Pareto principle [129 words]David LMay 11, 2010 15:06172577
Accepting Israel as the Jewish State [16 words]stevenLMay 11, 2010 13:41172572
Going on the "Offensive" [123 words]Susan Heller-SomervilleMay 11, 2010 13:21172571
Response to Susan Sommerville [102 words]Abraham MillerMay 11, 2010 22:08172571
The War Against Israel [42 words]Prof. Paul EidelbergMay 11, 2010 13:13172570
Muslims Accepting Israel ...? [136 words]TL WinslowMay 11, 2010 10:50172566
Israel will Survive anyway IF [256 words]John W. McGinleyMay 11, 2010 10:41172565
State of the Jewish People or Jewish Religion? [231 words]AbbushukiMay 11, 2010 10:07172564
1Accepting Israel as the Jewish State [828 words]Harry LiebermanMay 11, 2010 18:43172564
1Israel is Jewish, Established not by People, But by the WORD of the LORD - Ezekiel 36-37, et al. [641 words]M. ToveyMay 11, 2010 19:21172564
1There is a Jewish People since we, Jews, religious or secular, say so! [176 words]Isaac HaskiyaMay 12, 2010 02:35172564
every muslim knows [186 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanMay 12, 2010 05:19172564
1COUNTER TO NONSENSE [190 words]DEBORAH THE JUDGEMay 13, 2010 14:19172564
To Palestinians(Arabs) Palestine is anywhere Jews live in Palestine but not where Arabs live. [173 words]Harry LiebermanMay 11, 2010 08:39172560
JORDAN IS THE PALESTINIAN STATE [172 words]Ilene RichmanMay 30, 2010 12:59172560
What kind of Jewish state ? [133 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Debanjan BanerjeeMay 11, 2010 08:32172559
More reply to Dr. Pipes [170 words]Debanjan BanerjeeMay 13, 2010 02:10172559
Try a Different Perspective About the Jewish State of Israel [438 words]M. ToveyMay 20, 2010 18:54172559
Dear Mr. Tovey [188 words]Debanjan BanerjeeMay 24, 2010 23:38172559
Jewish Identification Already Determined by the LORD in His Holy Bible [949 words]M. ToveyMay 27, 2010 12:23172559
2Reply to Mr. M Tovey [284 words]Debanjan BanerjeeMay 28, 2010 07:03172559
1Goy ? [99 words]true believerMay 30, 2010 19:20172559
You are terribly wrong on this account [165 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 1, 2010 00:40172559
To Repeat that Which is Not Understood About Being Jewish [1188 words]M. ToveyJun 1, 2010 12:38172559
More Response to Mr. Tovey [272 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 3, 2010 04:47172559
You insult my common sense [187 words]true believerJun 3, 2010 11:42172559
There is a Separation Required [292 words]M. ToveyJun 4, 2010 18:31172559
More to Mr. Tovey [575 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 6, 2010 09:56172559
Continuing from my previous post [223 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 6, 2010 23:42172559
Same Arguments - No New Truth From the Quran [411 words]M. ToveyJun 7, 2010 19:49172559
When Jesus Christ Returns - Israel will be Fully Jewish, Ethnically and Biblically [1533 words]M. ToveyJun 8, 2010 13:32172559
More on Quran [408 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 8, 2010 23:57172559
More on Why Quran is No Substitue for the Hebrew HOLY BIBLE [900 words]M. ToveyJun 9, 2010 19:02172559
My reply to Mr. M Tovey [357 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 10, 2010 00:40172559
The Final Acceptance of the Jewish State is Biblically Mandated in the Love of Jesus Christ [1299 words]M. ToveyJun 10, 2010 19:37172559
My reply to Mr. M Tovey [317 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 11, 2010 07:27172559
Answer to Mr. M .Tovey [755 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 11, 2010 22:33172559
Faith is the Determinant [940 words]M. ToveyJun 14, 2010 18:25172559
Answers - A Series of Replies - Part One [678 words]M. ToveyJun 14, 2010 19:42172559
My Answers - part One [357 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 15, 2010 00:15172559
Answer to Mr. M Tovey [500 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 15, 2010 01:01172559
Answers - Part Two [1623 words]M. ToveyJun 15, 2010 19:38172559
Answers - A Third Reply [1355 words]M. ToveyJun 16, 2010 17:56172559
Answers? Seek HIM Who Died on the Cross to Answer the Need for Redemption from Sin [727 words]M. ToveyJun 16, 2010 19:25172559
My Answers - part two [970 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 17, 2010 01:03172559
More to Mr. M Tovey - Part -4 [305 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 18, 2010 11:28172559
Answer is Still the Same - Jesus Christ Died for You Out of the LOVE of Almighty God [353 words]M. ToveyJun 18, 2010 18:26172559
Our dear Deb and the subject of the so called sacrifice and othere sordid matters [473 words]dhimmi no moreJun 20, 2010 07:50172559
Lay off DNM [186 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 21, 2010 00:04172559
Our dear Deb: Why does the calendar of Islam start in 622CE and not in 610CE? any guesses? [47 words]dhimmi no moreJun 21, 2010 05:55172559
Our dear Deb and Islamophobia and we can only blame Him! [169 words]dhimmi no moreJun 21, 2010 06:03172559
More? Understanding The Holy Bible is More Than Debating It; It is Believing It Against Human Logic [1444 words]M. ToveyJun 21, 2010 12:05172559
True Understanding About Israel's Place in the World Requires True Understanding of the Holy Bible - You Want Answers? Guess Where They Are. [1462 words]M. ToveyJun 21, 2010 16:44172559
Our dear deb and one word: FRUSTRATION [261 words]dhimmi no moreJun 22, 2010 05:44172559
Hi dhimmi..its Simon again! [31 words]SimonJun 23, 2010 01:27172559
More to DNM [107 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 23, 2010 04:35172559
More Response to Mr. Tovey Part -5 [418 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 23, 2010 07:36172559
The amazing Pakistanis and Indian Muslims [42 words]dhimmi no moreJun 23, 2010 17:27172559
So our dear Deb you still did not answer [181 words]dhimmi no moreJun 23, 2010 17:41172559
The Response Should Be to the Truth of the Holy Bible - of Israel's Completed Destiny in Jesus Christ [1272 words]M. ToveyJun 23, 2010 19:33172559
Gem time and our dear Deb [293 words]dhimmi no moreJun 24, 2010 06:03172559
DNM think before you write [242 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 25, 2010 00:15172559
More to Mr. M Tovey - Part -5 [294 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 26, 2010 04:50172559
our dear deb is saying that killing is evil but his allah says ayat al-sayf says to kill! which one should we believe [417 words]dhimmi no moreJun 27, 2010 06:28172559
The Bhopal disaster and Allah's al-qada' wa al-qadr [203 words]dhimmi no moreJun 27, 2010 08:51172559
MORE? - To Quote Isaiah - Have You Not Heard? [2537 words]M. ToveyJun 28, 2010 16:11172559
Reply to Mr. Tovey - Part - 5 [325 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 29, 2010 00:29172559
ON Bhopal [69 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 29, 2010 00:38172559
Accepting Israel's Exceptional Status Before Almighty God - America Does Not Replace Israel [734 words]M. ToveyJun 29, 2010 17:49172559
Bhopal and Allah [161 words]dhimmi no moreJun 30, 2010 06:56172559
On Bhopal and Allah [35 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJul 4, 2010 02:15172559
More to Mr. M Tovey - Part -6 [476 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJul 4, 2010 02:41172559
Muslims worry about slavery? Really? al-hunuud al-humr wa al-3abeed and other sordid matters [664 words]dhimmi no moreJul 5, 2010 06:23172559
Bhopal and Allah part deux [270 words]dhimmi no moreJul 5, 2010 07:24172559
My Answer to DNM [89 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJul 5, 2010 23:55172559
Considering the Penalty for Obstructing Jesus Christ and the Acceptance of His People Israel [1860 words]M. ToveyJul 6, 2010 16:28172559
Bhupal and Allah [174 words]dhimmi no moreJul 6, 2010 19:32172559
Christ Jesus is the Cornerstone of a Non-ethnic Building [422 words]BA GriddJul 8, 2010 14:52172559
Full Context of the Promise to the Jewish Nation Contingent Upon Belief, in Jesus Christ's First Visit as Well as His Return [1163 words]M. ToveyJul 12, 2010 12:22172559
There are really three committments for the Palestinians [493 words]Ken Besig IsraelMay 11, 2010 06:17172554
Real challenges in this blighted region [53 words]UziMay 11, 2010 05:47172551
Mutuality [104 words]Cherif El-AyoutyMay 11, 2010 03:54172548
why they do not accept Israel [159 words]mythMay 14, 2010 04:26172548
Dear Daniel, I believe [29 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Sohel Ahmed BahjatMay 11, 2010 03:14172544
State of the Jews vs. Jewish State [54 words]PezDispenserMay 13, 2010 03:40172544

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