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More? Understanding The Holy Bible is More Than Debating It; It is Believing It Against Human Logic

Reader comment on item: Accepting Israel as the Jewish State[: Public Opinion in Four Arab Countries]
in response to reader comment: More to Mr. M Tovey - Part -4

Submitted by M. Tovey (United States), Jun 21, 2010 at 12:05

We have far afield from the original context of these particular posts, and again we have reached little common ground; you not willing to concede that the evidence on the ground supports the facts of the existence of Israel being returned to her own place according to the promise to Abraham, and for myself, content that since Israel IS in fact in her own place as Almighty God has promised, it is apparent my evidence is more compelling to me that any contravening ideology that tries in vain to argue it away. The word has been written and the facts are in evidence that the Holy Bible has been unalterable from the moment the WORD was spoken and eventually penned. Try as one might, there is no argument strong enough or eloquent of its own persuasion that has any eternal effect on what the LORD Almighty God has purposed, promised and fulfilled to bring us to this moment in time, neither from the past or the future, to which I rest my conviction and surrender my destiny in the Name of Jesus Christ the LORD.

Now you have, as many do, resorted to trying to identify true believers in the unalterable WORD of the LORD with the dictums and dogmas of the various Christianesque non-Biblical persuasions which in their own vanities have allowed the intrusion of human arguments to argue points of logic in matters that are transcendent to the temporal aspects of this life, and in doing so, miss the more important aspect of why humanity is failing to understand what this life is all about. In the apparent attempt to nullify the importance of the Holy Bible in the things we see in the world today, the arguments contradicting the facts on the ground lead to endless debates of the reality that should be plain to see, but is disregarded because non-Biblical mindset cannot comprehend the Biblical reality.

I have not argued, but presented the facts that Israel, the descendent son of Isaac, was returned to the land in spite of every attempt to keep them away, by political and physical efforts, from the time of the Roman expulsion, through the inquisitions, through the holocaust and from the distant relations of the sons of Kedar, who have thought they could usurp Israel's promise with their own, but have found out the hard way, they cannot alter the purpose and intent of Almighty God. Hey: I did not write the Holy Bible to fit my vision of the world, neither did any other mortal human.

Also, it is not an argument that Almighty God discriminates, but it is a fact. Were it not so, then Israel would not be in the position they find themselves in. Abraham was pulled from the human stream of what is now Iraq, designated by Almighty God to be a man of faith in Him, and in response to that faith, the promises were given. Only in Abraham's human weakness did he make his mistake and tried to alter the promise by having Ishmael with the Egyptian hand maiden in contradiction to what was promised. Humanity is still trying to handle the results to that today. Ishmael's birth was Abraham's responsibility in violation of the promise; therefore humanity suffers for the consequence of that failure. So while it is Abraham's responsibility that Ishmael was introduced into the stream of humanity, does that mean he is to dishonor the WORD of the LORD and the promises made to especially to him?

You have touched on a premise of Biblical principle that seems to be difficult for many to apprehend, that of responsibility and accountability, framed in the circumstance of the concept of the human dilemma, that having free will means making a choice that has specific consequences. We are free to choose with knowledge that right choices have right consequences, and bad choices result in consequences of a different sort. Abraham knew that he had the promise of a son from the very God of his faith, yet in weakness, made a bad choice. Had he chosen to wait for the timing of Almighty God in answering the prayer for Isaac, this exchange between you and I would not only be non-academic, but not even required.

Now you insist that somebody (you keep saying Christian evangelicals, but they have the least reason to do so, for it is their best support for believing) has altered the WORD of the LORD; but think about that proposition. If I needed something to support me in my conviction that I need my Savior to free me from my sin, why would I try and dismantle the only way that has saved me and given me hope for my future. Is that not antithetical, even in human terms? Even the most devout Christians have no need, but even more important, have no ability to alter the true WORD of the LORD, for what power does a human have against Almighty God? I mean seriously, we cannot control the weather; how then does mere mortal humanity even dare to think they can make Almighty God do what they want? My LORD and Savior is more powerful than that; I have His WORD on it.

Almighty God discriminates regarding good versus evil. His WORD is good; the words of mere mortals and the powers in the realm of darkness that darken men's thinking are evil. Are we really going to say that Almighty God cannot bring His WORD to pass, that somehow there is some latent ability in fallen humanity to keep Almighty God from performing just exactly what He has intended? The Holy Bible has said that Israel is the promised people, that they are to be returned to their land, and is it not so?

Jesus Christ said that He came to earth to redeem sinful humanity to the Father, that He would take the sins of believers and pay the penalty of death to provide that redemption. I have that in my faith in Jesus Christ, and with the same promise fulfilled out of His love, I can see His promise to Abraham fulfilled in Isaac, not Ishmael.

Now you have tried to make the same unrelated argument, as so many others do, that somehow the actions of those in America who professed Christianity, but were not practitioners of the love of Christ, were performed under the same influences that we see in the Middle East. Though the evil behind the lack of faith is the same in all humans, here and there are worlds apart, for the futility of that argument fails to one simple reason, that were those who caused those afflictions true to Jesus Christ, in obedience the Gospel would have been the tool to honor Jesus Christ, and not the crosses on the graves who died for His Name. Your allegory fails.

But I regress and come back to one of your earlier allegations, of Islamophobia and somehow there is your perception that true Christian evangelicals are to be taken to task for the rhetoric of hatred coming from the Imam and mullahs, even here in America. True Christianity preaches, mostly unheard from the unbelieving, of the love of Jesus Christ, of His willingness to die for your sins and mine, of His burial, resurrection and ascension for justification of our belief in Him. Why do Imams and mullahs NOT preach the same messages of redemption and salvation out of the love of Almighty God; that instead there are the calls for Israel to be breached, from the land, from the sea, from the air, and Christians are to be subjected to the same for supporting Israel? The question is rhetorical, for we can read of the differences from the differing texts. In the context that the Holy Bible governs men and women of true faith and racists do not honor the WORD of the LORD, your allegation is groundless.

And therein lies the discernment, that as much as one tries to say the Quran is a better inference of how this world should be governed by Almighty God, a Christian has a much better chance in salvation in Jesus Christ than anyone else that does not have that faith. I have pointed to Israel as an outward and practical evidence for why I believe the way I do, but truly, it is the Holy Spirit who governs my life that is my best witness of the Truth in His WORD, and the world is merely responding to His laws of governance, and not the words of mere mortals and insufficient powers, and thereby is paying the consequences.

Submitting....

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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Reader comments (113) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
1"under the right circumstances" [141 words]Howard LaitinJun 3, 2010 00:31173770
1Howard Laitin said it right [174 words]TedAug 6, 2010 02:33173770
boycott of israeli products [33 words]mythMay 30, 2010 16:02173547
Israel is other name for freedom [93 words]Muslimk***May 26, 2010 15:49173427
Israel [81 words]concerned americanMay 18, 2010 18:23173021
Turkey as an ally........... [36 words]JosephJun 7, 2010 04:00173021
The Levant in 2200 [421 words]KMMay 18, 2010 08:31172954
an old brave new world [272 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanMay 19, 2010 06:29172954
Just Recognize It As A Country [17 words]Mark D.May 20, 2010 00:00172954
Flags, etc [762 words]KMMay 20, 2010 04:36172954
1Israel , flags etc [1791 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanMay 21, 2010 05:57172954
p.s. [67 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanMay 21, 2010 06:11172954
some in some out [54 words]mythMay 23, 2010 13:56172954
The Origin of Jews, et al [4578 words]KMJul 7, 2010 10:13172954
From Beyond the Rivers of Ethiopia My Suppliants, Even the Daughter of My Dispersed, Shall Bring Mine Offering. [952 words]M. ToveyJul 20, 2010 14:19172954
You see our crooked paths yet the one you walk twists and turns. [289 words]LynnJul 22, 2010 08:04172954
response [72 words]RonaldSep 14, 2010 12:15172954
no historical ties ? [110 words]mythMay 16, 2010 15:27172747
Might as well accept it... [163 words]CW OrangeMay 16, 2010 04:08172741
Why Is Recognition Held Out As So Important Even Compared To Ending Violence? [58 words]MarsdMay 16, 2010 02:29172738
Why is accepting or recognizing Israel so important? [29 words]mythMay 29, 2010 07:17172738
The muslims will never accept Israel as a JEWISH STATE, they have said so, and the koran says so ! [213 words]Phil GreendMay 14, 2010 23:33172713
2The Qur'an is a Jewish Book [104 words]RadiateTruthJun 1, 2010 18:57172713
No surprise [78 words]Katherine McLeanMay 12, 2010 19:15172635
Arabs & Jews in Israel need to know what their scriptures say. [37 words]M.DMay 11, 2010 17:20172585
Re: Accepting Isreal as Jewish State [42 words]AbuuHaleemMay 12, 2010 16:33172585
What "Allah" really said about Jerusalem & Israel. [221 words]M.D.May 13, 2010 11:38172585
1Accepting the Truth of an Israeli Jewish State [385 words]M. ToveyMay 11, 2010 16:51172583
1Pareto principle [129 words]David LMay 11, 2010 15:06172577
Accepting Israel as the Jewish State [16 words]stevenLMay 11, 2010 13:41172572
Going on the "Offensive" [123 words]Susan Heller-SomervilleMay 11, 2010 13:21172571
Response to Susan Sommerville [102 words]Abraham MillerMay 11, 2010 22:08172571
The War Against Israel [42 words]Prof. Paul EidelbergMay 11, 2010 13:13172570
Muslims Accepting Israel ...? [136 words]TL WinslowMay 11, 2010 10:50172566
Israel will Survive anyway IF [256 words]John W. McGinleyMay 11, 2010 10:41172565
State of the Jewish People or Jewish Religion? [231 words]AbbushukiMay 11, 2010 10:07172564
1Accepting Israel as the Jewish State [828 words]Harry LiebermanMay 11, 2010 18:43172564
1Israel is Jewish, Established not by People, But by the WORD of the LORD - Ezekiel 36-37, et al. [641 words]M. ToveyMay 11, 2010 19:21172564
1There is a Jewish People since we, Jews, religious or secular, say so! [176 words]Isaac HaskiyaMay 12, 2010 02:35172564
every muslim knows [186 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanMay 12, 2010 05:19172564
1COUNTER TO NONSENSE [190 words]DEBORAH THE JUDGEMay 13, 2010 14:19172564
To Palestinians(Arabs) Palestine is anywhere Jews live in Palestine but not where Arabs live. [173 words]Harry LiebermanMay 11, 2010 08:39172560
JORDAN IS THE PALESTINIAN STATE [172 words]Ilene RichmanMay 30, 2010 12:59172560
What kind of Jewish state ? [133 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Debanjan BanerjeeMay 11, 2010 08:32172559
More reply to Dr. Pipes [170 words]Debanjan BanerjeeMay 13, 2010 02:10172559
Try a Different Perspective About the Jewish State of Israel [438 words]M. ToveyMay 20, 2010 18:54172559
Dear Mr. Tovey [188 words]Debanjan BanerjeeMay 24, 2010 23:38172559
Jewish Identification Already Determined by the LORD in His Holy Bible [949 words]M. ToveyMay 27, 2010 12:23172559
2Reply to Mr. M Tovey [284 words]Debanjan BanerjeeMay 28, 2010 07:03172559
1Goy ? [99 words]true believerMay 30, 2010 19:20172559
You are terribly wrong on this account [165 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 1, 2010 00:40172559
To Repeat that Which is Not Understood About Being Jewish [1188 words]M. ToveyJun 1, 2010 12:38172559
More Response to Mr. Tovey [272 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 3, 2010 04:47172559
You insult my common sense [187 words]true believerJun 3, 2010 11:42172559
There is a Separation Required [292 words]M. ToveyJun 4, 2010 18:31172559
More to Mr. Tovey [575 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 6, 2010 09:56172559
Continuing from my previous post [223 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 6, 2010 23:42172559
Same Arguments - No New Truth From the Quran [411 words]M. ToveyJun 7, 2010 19:49172559
When Jesus Christ Returns - Israel will be Fully Jewish, Ethnically and Biblically [1533 words]M. ToveyJun 8, 2010 13:32172559
More on Quran [408 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 8, 2010 23:57172559
More on Why Quran is No Substitue for the Hebrew HOLY BIBLE [900 words]M. ToveyJun 9, 2010 19:02172559
My reply to Mr. M Tovey [357 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 10, 2010 00:40172559
The Final Acceptance of the Jewish State is Biblically Mandated in the Love of Jesus Christ [1299 words]M. ToveyJun 10, 2010 19:37172559
My reply to Mr. M Tovey [317 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 11, 2010 07:27172559
Answer to Mr. M .Tovey [755 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 11, 2010 22:33172559
Faith is the Determinant [940 words]M. ToveyJun 14, 2010 18:25172559
Answers - A Series of Replies - Part One [678 words]M. ToveyJun 14, 2010 19:42172559
My Answers - part One [357 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 15, 2010 00:15172559
Answer to Mr. M Tovey [500 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 15, 2010 01:01172559
Answers - Part Two [1623 words]M. ToveyJun 15, 2010 19:38172559
Answers - A Third Reply [1355 words]M. ToveyJun 16, 2010 17:56172559
Answers? Seek HIM Who Died on the Cross to Answer the Need for Redemption from Sin [727 words]M. ToveyJun 16, 2010 19:25172559
My Answers - part two [970 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 17, 2010 01:03172559
More to Mr. M Tovey - Part -4 [305 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 18, 2010 11:28172559
Answer is Still the Same - Jesus Christ Died for You Out of the LOVE of Almighty God [353 words]M. ToveyJun 18, 2010 18:26172559
Our dear Deb and the subject of the so called sacrifice and othere sordid matters [473 words]dhimmi no moreJun 20, 2010 07:50172559
Lay off DNM [186 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 21, 2010 00:04172559
Our dear Deb: Why does the calendar of Islam start in 622CE and not in 610CE? any guesses? [47 words]dhimmi no moreJun 21, 2010 05:55172559
Our dear Deb and Islamophobia and we can only blame Him! [169 words]dhimmi no moreJun 21, 2010 06:03172559
More? Understanding The Holy Bible is More Than Debating It; It is Believing It Against Human Logic [1444 words]M. ToveyJun 21, 2010 12:05172559
True Understanding About Israel's Place in the World Requires True Understanding of the Holy Bible - You Want Answers? Guess Where They Are. [1462 words]M. ToveyJun 21, 2010 16:44172559
Our dear deb and one word: FRUSTRATION [261 words]dhimmi no moreJun 22, 2010 05:44172559
Hi dhimmi..its Simon again! [31 words]SimonJun 23, 2010 01:27172559
More to DNM [107 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 23, 2010 04:35172559
More Response to Mr. Tovey Part -5 [418 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 23, 2010 07:36172559
The amazing Pakistanis and Indian Muslims [42 words]dhimmi no moreJun 23, 2010 17:27172559
So our dear Deb you still did not answer [181 words]dhimmi no moreJun 23, 2010 17:41172559
The Response Should Be to the Truth of the Holy Bible - of Israel's Completed Destiny in Jesus Christ [1272 words]M. ToveyJun 23, 2010 19:33172559
Gem time and our dear Deb [293 words]dhimmi no moreJun 24, 2010 06:03172559
DNM think before you write [242 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 25, 2010 00:15172559
More to Mr. M Tovey - Part -5 [294 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 26, 2010 04:50172559
our dear deb is saying that killing is evil but his allah says ayat al-sayf says to kill! which one should we believe [417 words]dhimmi no moreJun 27, 2010 06:28172559
The Bhopal disaster and Allah's al-qada' wa al-qadr [203 words]dhimmi no moreJun 27, 2010 08:51172559
MORE? - To Quote Isaiah - Have You Not Heard? [2537 words]M. ToveyJun 28, 2010 16:11172559
Reply to Mr. Tovey - Part - 5 [325 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 29, 2010 00:29172559
ON Bhopal [69 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJun 29, 2010 00:38172559
Accepting Israel's Exceptional Status Before Almighty God - America Does Not Replace Israel [734 words]M. ToveyJun 29, 2010 17:49172559
Bhopal and Allah [161 words]dhimmi no moreJun 30, 2010 06:56172559
On Bhopal and Allah [35 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJul 4, 2010 02:15172559
More to Mr. M Tovey - Part -6 [476 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJul 4, 2010 02:41172559
Muslims worry about slavery? Really? al-hunuud al-humr wa al-3abeed and other sordid matters [664 words]dhimmi no moreJul 5, 2010 06:23172559
Bhopal and Allah part deux [270 words]dhimmi no moreJul 5, 2010 07:24172559
My Answer to DNM [89 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJul 5, 2010 23:55172559
Considering the Penalty for Obstructing Jesus Christ and the Acceptance of His People Israel [1860 words]M. ToveyJul 6, 2010 16:28172559
Bhupal and Allah [174 words]dhimmi no moreJul 6, 2010 19:32172559
Christ Jesus is the Cornerstone of a Non-ethnic Building [422 words]BA GriddJul 8, 2010 14:52172559
Full Context of the Promise to the Jewish Nation Contingent Upon Belief, in Jesus Christ's First Visit as Well as His Return [1163 words]M. ToveyJul 12, 2010 12:22172559
There are really three committments for the Palestinians [493 words]Ken Besig IsraelMay 11, 2010 06:17172554
Real challenges in this blighted region [53 words]UziMay 11, 2010 05:47172551
Mutuality [104 words]Cherif El-AyoutyMay 11, 2010 03:54172548
why they do not accept Israel [159 words]mythMay 14, 2010 04:26172548
Dear Daniel, I believe [29 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Sohel Ahmed BahjatMay 11, 2010 03:14172544
State of the Jews vs. Jewish State [54 words]PezDispenserMay 13, 2010 03:40172544

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