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The crux of the matter

Reader comment on item: Islam and Islamism: Faith and Ideology
in response to reader comment: The Middle East was violent before modern Israel and Islam

Submitted by sara (United States), Jul 13, 2012 at 17:10

Schills,

Yet again I find disagreement on basic perceptions.

You say: If Israel were not blamed, someone else would be. Likely candidates would be America, Europe and Jews

Well, they are indeed blamed already, are you not aware of that? (ex Great Satan, little Satan).

The bottom line however remains the violence which occurred was due to factors other than Islam with principal factors being blaming Jews for the acts of Arab landowners and the absence of effective non-violent means of political expression.

I do not understand this sentence. Please explain what you mean. How are you separating Islamic violence from Anti-Semitic violence? The land is the most precious commodity in Islam and it is directed that any land that was at any time inhabited by Muslims is forever Muslim land (see Andalusia, Kashmir, Bosnia, Chechnya etc etc) and is to be defended in the name of all Muslims to protect the Ummah.

While I do not blame Israel, you blame Islam, and the culture of the Middle East for violence in the region.

Of course I blame Islam (and the culture of the Middle East) and its clear painfully specific dictates of behavior and war because I have eyes and ears and listen to what the Imams say, what the politicians say, what the people say and I do not try to fool myself that it is otherwise.

This implies that there was no violence in the Middle East prior to Islam and that other cultures do not have similar violent histories. Both are false.

Never even alluded to that, but what happened over 1400 years ago is a different affair than what happened last week or will happen tomorrow.

When we look at the decline of violence in Europe and America, it is due to the availability of non-violent modes of political expression, and an intimate familiarity with what violence as a political tool produces.

That is a simplistic and dismissive explanation. And it is also the crux of our disagreement.

You fail to acknowledge that there are tribal cultures steeped in Islamic tradition and law in the ME that want no part of modern 'frivolousness', no part of technology, democracy, looseness decadence and whatever else they tell each other and how the west is the devil to tempt them into hell. Have you read Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book "Infidel"? There she was, in modern times of the 80's and 90's with her relatives, communities in Somalia, Kenya, Saudi Arabia, while the western world was in some parallel universe, but these people had no desire to emulate the west in any way and kept their backward traditions intact at all costs, for honor, for fear of Allah's wrath, and mostly out of fear of the hellish hell they are petrified of that is described in such vivid detail and all memorize.

The only position I hold is that it is better for us if Arabs build their societies non-violently through the ballot box than by directing violence at us.

That is all well and good, and good luck convincing the multitude of Muslims in Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria etc. etc of your theory. If there are any who might agree with your values, their only options are to flee their communities and abandon their families. The majority hold rigidly to the basic Islamic 'rightful' or 'straight 'path and will not deviate because they just do not agree with you that your way is better.

Muslim violence does not explain the conversion of the Mongols to Islam as the Mongols utterly defeated the Muslim armies in Central Asia, Iran, Iraq and Anatolia. If your analysis were correct, then one would expect a swelling of the pagan population and a rejuvenation of Christian populations as several of the Mongol leaders were Christians.

Again, you grossly underestimate the power of fear (or starvation), and how very effective it is in 'conversions'. Any Muslim proselytizers (and they are required to by Islamic law- Da'wah) will tell you not only how wonderful Islam is, peaceful and pure, but more importantly, where you will end up if you disobey Allah. Christians may believe in similar hellfire, but the percentage of proselytizers is not in the mainstream of the religion.

I only point out the analysis of the cause of past declines in non-Muslim populations in the Middle East is not due to the present decline caused by Jihadist violence.

Again, I need an explanation for this sentence. And what consequence does it have if there is a distinction or not?


Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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Reader comments (81) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
3Fundamentalism?? Islam Is An Ideology Not A Religion [417 words]Bill HazelbauerDec 12, 2015 13:07227002
Islam and islamists [69 words]gloriaJan 11, 2015 09:53220270
3One needs to read the Quran before coming to any conclusions about Islam [242 words]JillJan 19, 2014 11:23212737
Taqiyya [136 words]TruthtalkerMay 4, 2013 07:24205821
they really are disguised [13 words]jemsOct 24, 2012 07:23200033
1sorry, but moderate Islam is a lie [301 words]gmasterFeb 6, 2012 19:04193153
the real Taqijja uncovered by an Ex-Muslim [66 words]gmasterFeb 7, 2012 21:12193153
What is your solution? [98 words]SchillsJun 25, 2012 13:14193153
I thought you said it was none of our business? [201 words]saraJun 25, 2012 18:27193153
solution? [598 words]gmasterJun 25, 2012 22:34193153
Maybe I misunderstood you [244 words]SchillsJun 26, 2012 01:03193153
Culture and deterrence are the keys [728 words]saraJun 26, 2012 16:47193153
Free elections have occurred [292 words]SchillsJun 28, 2012 12:29193153
Support of Islamist parties [401 words]saraJun 28, 2012 16:06193153
IS the problem Arabs or Islamists? [205 words]SchillsJun 29, 2012 18:45193153
Who cares and what is the difference? [135 words]saraJun 29, 2012 21:28193153
1The Arab invaders of the lands of the civilized and Islamic crusades revisited [329 words]dhimmi no moreJun 30, 2012 07:02193153
Why not exclude every ideology associate with political violence? [499 words]SchillsJul 2, 2012 15:56193153
Western support for Mid East dictators well known. [11 words]SchillsJul 2, 2012 16:57193153
Rice's speech [11 words]SchilllsJul 2, 2012 17:06193153
Faulty supposition, Schills [206 words]saraJul 2, 2012 17:30193153
Sorry, I don't buy it [255 words]saraJul 2, 2012 18:00193153
Supporting Tyranny has lead to the current situation [231 words]SchillsJul 3, 2012 13:19193153
3Shills and his tablighee nonsense [161 words]dhimmi no moreJul 3, 2012 14:33193153
1Way too Simplistic, Schills [456 words]saraJul 3, 2012 19:56193153
Hopefully the links work [33 words]SchillsJul 4, 2012 13:29193153
I never mentioned throwing money at the problem [183 words]SchillsJul 4, 2012 13:42193153
You have it backwards, Schills [426 words]saraJul 4, 2012 17:33193153
7Tablighees twists and turns never end and why is that our dear Shills? [491 words]dhimmi no moreJul 5, 2012 06:45193153
1Shills is a lost tablighee [154 words]dhimmi no moreJul 5, 2012 17:16193153
To DNM [109 words]saraJul 5, 2012 19:11193153
I hope you find real South Asian Islamists to attack [303 words]SchillsJul 5, 2012 19:13193153
4Our dear Shills and the proof and the pudding! [1258 words]dhimmi no moreJul 7, 2012 07:47193153
2Islamophobia? It is gone and it is replaced by "trolling"! [179 words]dhimmi no moreJul 11, 2012 12:38193153
Thanks for the benefit of the doubt [99 words]SchillsJul 12, 2012 16:20193153
Feel free to exercise your freedom to troll. [160 words]SchillsJul 12, 2012 17:04193153
I think you are seriously undervaluing the influence of Islam [395 words]saraJul 12, 2012 17:16193153
1Trolling and Muslims [330 words]dhimmi no moreJul 12, 2012 18:35193153
1The Middle East was violent before modern Israel and Islam [521 words]SchillsJul 12, 2012 19:50193153
They don't stop until they are 98% of the population [55 words]PrashantJul 13, 2012 00:32193153
The crux of the matter [702 words]saraJul 13, 2012 17:08193153
The crux of the matter [756 words]saraJul 13, 2012 17:10193153
Exactly right, Prashant [176 words]saraJul 13, 2012 17:53193153
Why are you promoting the propaganda of dictators? [411 words]SchillsJul 13, 2012 19:07193153
DNM why do you have a pre-9/11 outlook [103 words]SchillsJul 13, 2012 19:13193153
4Hijazi Arab aristocracy? are you for real? [292 words]dhimmi no moreJul 14, 2012 07:42193153
Agree on one point [176 words]saraJul 14, 2012 18:57193153
3Shameful Tablighee delusions [371 words]dhimmi no moreJul 15, 2012 06:40193153
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Nothing can convince me about Islam [42 words]MartinJul 13, 2007 02:1235658
1Re: Nothing can convince me about Islam [114 words]Farhan AhmedJun 1, 2008 01:5335658
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Islam and Islamism - Faith and Ideology [32 words]Karel Orlík,Jul 2, 2005 05:1723066
Regarding Judaism and Christianity being defective variants of Islam [303 words]Ihsan Ayyub QaziFeb 11, 2005 06:2820264
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Separation of Church and State [195 words]Michael KermonNov 22, 2007 10:2020264
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Impressive [23 words]Tom DundeeFeb 27, 2010 18:1520264

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Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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