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Culture and deterrence are the keys

Reader comment on item: Islam and Islamism: Faith and Ideology
in response to reader comment: Maybe I misunderstood you

Submitted by sara (United States), Jun 26, 2012 at 16:47

Schills,

You say: Your restatement of my position suggests I do not care how Islamist come to power. I care how Islamists come to power just as I care how a social democrat comes to power. I don't think you would throw Tony Blair in with Stalin. Why throw Muhammad Mursi in with ayatollah Khomeini?

You are right. The reason that it is important how Islamists come to power through pseudo or faux elections is that the people they are in power over tend to be quite unaware of how they perceive their freedom and do not understand that they are simply exchanging one tyrant for another (a secular one for a religious one). That said, it always remains their choice. The main issue I have with your statement is that you are assuming that there are in fact genuine democratic elections and that the Islamist groups are not manipulating things behind the scenes, either by threat or bribery. As for Mursi, the verdict is not in.

My understanding of your position is that you are absolutely against Islamists coming to power even if they are democratically elected.

I refer you to my statement above, and the reason is that although it is not our affair what happens in other nations, the expansion of Islamist sharia ultimately harms everyone in that its adherents tend towards violence and extreme measures, whether against their own communities or against their neighbor countries.

I also understand your position to be that Islam is inherently violent and cannot coexist with other ideologies in a non-violent manner.

Obviously there are many Muslims who do not practice violence. But I do believe that as a result of lack of clarity within Islam, the Quran translations, various sects and interpretations, that Islam itself is susceptible to violent interpretations and we of course see this every day all around our world today. I'm sure you are not going to deny that there are an awful lot of 'misinterpreters' walking around. But the fallacy is exactly that. To chalk up Islamic radicals to misinterpretations, say they are not 'true' Muslims, who are we to determine that? Every Jihadist blowing himself or others up has a very sincere belief that he is practising true and pure Islam. It's all quite subjective isn't it? Yet we no longer find Christians or Jews running around blowing people up in the name of their religions, and quoting from the Bible or Torah. There may be violent words, but they are not adhered to by large swathes of believers. Because the Iuslim moderates are demonstrably incapable of controlling the actions of the radicals, and are very afraid to speak up for fear of death, there is a certain lack of confidence and goodwill in trying to establish any dialogues. Facts are powerful things, and all the moderates lip service (which you will admit is few and far between) that this not true Islam does nothing to negate the actions of the radicals.

Based on my understanding of your position which would align US foreign policy against an idea I presented four policy options all of which are ridiculous. As for deterrence, ideas cannot be deter or contained. As 9/11 demonstrated, all it takes is a handful of non-state actors to inflict mass casualties. If all Muslims are inherently our enemies, then we are left with no policy options which can succeed.

I get your point and accept it. However, deterrence works against individuals and small groups on that level as well. Laws that are enforced, punishments that have teeth cause deterrence of their own. GW Bush was a deterrence since Muslims never knew what he might do next, the 'crazy cowboy'. That was quite effective in deterrence. Enforcement of consequences create deterrence (see Iran).

On the other hand, if we accepted the possibility of non-violent coexistence with Muslims and support democratic elections in Muslim countries even if young lovers won't be free to walk down the street holding hands, then we will have taken a big step towards isolating the individuals who pose an actual threat to us.

That is possible, and in theory, I agree. But I remain too cynical to believe that there would not be fallout into our societies and communities given the spread of such ideologies and influences within their own communities. None of us live in a vacuum.

Submitting....

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Reader comments (81) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
3Fundamentalism?? Islam Is An Ideology Not A Religion [417 words]Bill HazelbauerDec 12, 2015 13:07227002
Islam and islamists [69 words]gloriaJan 11, 2015 09:53220270
3One needs to read the Quran before coming to any conclusions about Islam [242 words]JillJan 19, 2014 11:23212737
Taqiyya [136 words]TruthtalkerMay 4, 2013 07:24205821
they really are disguised [13 words]jemsOct 24, 2012 07:23200033
1sorry, but moderate Islam is a lie [301 words]gmasterFeb 6, 2012 19:04193153
the real Taqijja uncovered by an Ex-Muslim [66 words]gmasterFeb 7, 2012 21:12193153
What is your solution? [98 words]SchillsJun 25, 2012 13:14193153
I thought you said it was none of our business? [201 words]saraJun 25, 2012 18:27193153
solution? [598 words]gmasterJun 25, 2012 22:34193153
Maybe I misunderstood you [244 words]SchillsJun 26, 2012 01:03193153
Culture and deterrence are the keys [728 words]saraJun 26, 2012 16:47193153
Free elections have occurred [292 words]SchillsJun 28, 2012 12:29193153
Support of Islamist parties [401 words]saraJun 28, 2012 16:06193153
IS the problem Arabs or Islamists? [205 words]SchillsJun 29, 2012 18:45193153
Who cares and what is the difference? [135 words]saraJun 29, 2012 21:28193153
1The Arab invaders of the lands of the civilized and Islamic crusades revisited [329 words]dhimmi no moreJun 30, 2012 07:02193153
Why not exclude every ideology associate with political violence? [499 words]SchillsJul 2, 2012 15:56193153
Western support for Mid East dictators well known. [11 words]SchillsJul 2, 2012 16:57193153
Rice's speech [11 words]SchilllsJul 2, 2012 17:06193153
Faulty supposition, Schills [206 words]saraJul 2, 2012 17:30193153
Sorry, I don't buy it [255 words]saraJul 2, 2012 18:00193153
Supporting Tyranny has lead to the current situation [231 words]SchillsJul 3, 2012 13:19193153
3Shills and his tablighee nonsense [161 words]dhimmi no moreJul 3, 2012 14:33193153
1Way too Simplistic, Schills [456 words]saraJul 3, 2012 19:56193153
Hopefully the links work [33 words]SchillsJul 4, 2012 13:29193153
I never mentioned throwing money at the problem [183 words]SchillsJul 4, 2012 13:42193153
You have it backwards, Schills [426 words]saraJul 4, 2012 17:33193153
7Tablighees twists and turns never end and why is that our dear Shills? [491 words]dhimmi no moreJul 5, 2012 06:45193153
1Shills is a lost tablighee [154 words]dhimmi no moreJul 5, 2012 17:16193153
To DNM [109 words]saraJul 5, 2012 19:11193153
I hope you find real South Asian Islamists to attack [303 words]SchillsJul 5, 2012 19:13193153
4Our dear Shills and the proof and the pudding! [1258 words]dhimmi no moreJul 7, 2012 07:47193153
2Islamophobia? It is gone and it is replaced by "trolling"! [179 words]dhimmi no moreJul 11, 2012 12:38193153
Thanks for the benefit of the doubt [99 words]SchillsJul 12, 2012 16:20193153
Feel free to exercise your freedom to troll. [160 words]SchillsJul 12, 2012 17:04193153
I think you are seriously undervaluing the influence of Islam [395 words]saraJul 12, 2012 17:16193153
1Trolling and Muslims [330 words]dhimmi no moreJul 12, 2012 18:35193153
1The Middle East was violent before modern Israel and Islam [521 words]SchillsJul 12, 2012 19:50193153
They don't stop until they are 98% of the population [55 words]PrashantJul 13, 2012 00:32193153
The crux of the matter [702 words]saraJul 13, 2012 17:08193153
The crux of the matter [756 words]saraJul 13, 2012 17:10193153
Exactly right, Prashant [176 words]saraJul 13, 2012 17:53193153
Why are you promoting the propaganda of dictators? [411 words]SchillsJul 13, 2012 19:07193153
DNM why do you have a pre-9/11 outlook [103 words]SchillsJul 13, 2012 19:13193153
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