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Some comments to "Moderate muslim's test":
Reader comment on article: [Finding Moderate Muslims:] Do you believe in modernity?

Submitted by LK (Lithuania), Jan 10, 2005 at 06:04

Some comments to "Moderate muslim's test":

[Do you accept the legitimacy of scholarly inquiry into the origins of Islam?]

This is quite problematic question. Western scholars have their right to delve into origins of Islam, even if their way of doing so is not very sympathetic to Islam, and Muslims have no right to threaten them or intimidate, let alone attempt to their lives, yet Muslims are not bound to acept their findings and are free to disagree with them. Muslims are also not obliged to believe in the validity of the scientific methods used by Western scholars. They have right to think that the traditional methods used by their scholars are more valid than Western one's. On the other hand, Muslim could never expect that Western scolars would agree in everything with Muslims concerning Islamic history, even Muslim not always agree(eg. differing historical vision by Sunnis and Shias).

The Western work on the origins of Islam have very unequal value, there are such collection of fairy tales as "Hagarism" of Crone and Cook, yet even in this book there are very interesting chapters especially those which do not deal directly with the origins of Islam. There are interesting studies by Gerald Hawting and Christoph Luxenberg, worthy of serious attention by Muslims. There are some another books of the same Crone and Cook, which I also consider worthy of a serious interest by Muslims. There is interesting research work on old Quranic manuscripts by Gerhard Puin and other scholars. In some cases, Muslims can expand their own knowledge of Islam from such books. In other cases, if they reject their findings using the language of arguments they can expand and strengthen the Islamic philosophical thought. But in any case it should be the language of arguments, not threats and curses.

Another problem is, that certain media present some doubtful and tentative findings of Western scholars as certainties. These media have full right to do so, and Muslims again have no right to threaten or intimidate them, yet Muslims have right vigorously protest against such things using legitimate forms of protest allowed by the law. In the Western society which is scientolatric, when some newspaper says that "the science has proven that Islam appeared not in Mekka" or that "Qur'an was not written down in the time of Umar" it carries very much weight, and Muslims should try to show that these are merely guesses and conjectures based on very limited data which allows all sorts of interpretations. But for protesting it is not enough to cry and shout, one has to present at least some arguments.

I would rephrase the article from the test so:
[Do you accept that Western scholars have the right of scholarly inquiry into the origins of Islam, even if it is unsympathetic to Islam, without being killed, threatened, molested, intimidated, pressured by Muslims?Do you accept that Western media have the right to make even unsympathetic presentations on Islam within the limits established by the Western law?]

[When Islamic customs conflict with secular laws (e.g., covering the face for drivers' license pictures), which should give way?]

In principle even the traditional fiqh tells that Muslim should obey even to unjust authority except the cases when this authority forbids Muslims cult, or forcibly attempts to life, health and ownership of Muslims, which is obviously not the case in the case of driver's licence. Yet I see here a problem from the human right view - making uncover one's face to a believing Muslim woman is equivalent to make a demand to a Western woman to uncover her breasts, so this would be a violation of the bodily integrity. So Western authorities should reconsider whether such demands do not violate their own principles. But as long as such laws are valid, Muslim women should comply, although they have full right to show their disagreement in a civilised form acceptable in the countries where they live.

[Do you accept the laws of a majority non-Muslim government and unreservedly pledge allegiance to that government?]
Muslim shall acept the laws of al-Sultaan whether the latter is islamic or non-islamic, pious or tyrannic or corrupt etc. with the limitations outlined above. Since Western authorities allow Muslim cult and protect their life and property as that of other citizens, Muslims have no right to rebel. Yet to pledge UNRESERVED allegiance to the government is not only unislamic, it is also undemocratic. Should democratically minded people UNRESERVEDLY pledge allegiance to a government which makes blatant human right violations? I think not. I think that Islamic Sharia accepted even much greater degree of allegiance to governments than democratic practice does.

I think the word "unreservedly" should be deleted.
I think there should be another point - Whether you accept that Wahhabism, Salafism, Ikhwanism, Mawdoodism are illegitimate forms of Islam even if they outwardly pretend to be moderate?(because inwardly they as little can be moderate as Nazis and Communist can)

[Do you accept the validity of other religions?]
It would be rephrased so:
Whether you accept that your fellow citizens of other religions have right to their own belief and worship unmolested and unhindered by you, even you may believe that their belief and worship are metaphysically wrong?

The point about "equal rights of Muslim women" should be deleted. It would only alienate many potential moderate Muslims at the same time having nothing to do with real security issues, as many non violent traditionalists would answer NOT to this point, while many Ikhwanis(even such as Tourabi) would hypocritically agree.

Concerning Sheikh Yousouf Hamza
It is very painful to see how this person who proclaimed himself a champion of traditional Islam with a goal to restore traditional scholarship, has sold his soul to Wahhabis and participate in their meetings. What is it - a "critical dialog" or the outright treason to his own ideals? I must remind a good proverb "do not go to gather apples together with the devil - you will lose your apples and your basket". It is seems this is happening to Sheykh Yousouf. May the Allmighty bring him back from the brink.


Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened for relevance, substance, and tone, and in some cases edited, before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome, but comments are rejected if scurrilous, off-topic, vulgar, ad hominem, or otherwise viewed as inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the Guidelines for Comments.

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Other reader comments on this article

Title By Date

Reasonable Questions from Dr. Pipes EXCEPT... [78 words]

Jamal Sep 10, 2007 08:55

What is a Moderate Muslim? [270 words]

Erik Larsen Jul 7, 2007 17:53

  4 False Tenets. [1325 words]

Manuel F. Nuñez Dec 30, 2007 20:04

Where do I take the test??!! [18 words]

Qasim Manzoor Apr 22, 2007 11:49

I failed [6 words]

farooq Feb 22, 2007 17:21

Proven point. [114 words]

Atiem Q Jan 23, 2007 13:55

What is this ... [57 words]

mimi Oct 18, 2006 02:40

Yeah, but... [632 words]

Trevor Swoverland Aug 30, 2006 16:08

  Wrong! [32 words]

chris Mar 10, 2007 00:03

  oh really? [33 words]

zen Apr 2, 2007 06:56

  Before correcting others... [79 words]

Gov Jun 30, 2008 12:28

We the AMERICANS will defend Israel and crush the Arabs who instigate global problems! [221 words]

Justin Aug 22, 2006 16:30

  5 minutes [64 words]

Michael Aug 27, 2006 20:11

  re: 5 minutes [72 words]

david Feb 1, 2007 21:00

  there you go [15 words]

Frank Cotton Aug 20, 2007 12:17

  Cute but Ignorant Comments... [1101 words]

Manuel F. Nuñez Jan 2, 2008 09:06

Questions Muslims can't answer!! [3411 words]

Salman Saeed Jul 9, 2006 08:26

  Muslims Do Answer!!! [149 words]

Azmat Zuberi Aug 11, 2006 17:51

  reply [203 words]

a name would only bias the response Sep 30, 2006 21:12

  I recently chose Islam after living as a Roman Catholic [616 words]

dBirch May 29, 2007 17:10

  I am a Roman Catholic married to a Muslim..... [177 words]

Brenda Bakkali Aug 16, 2007 19:16

  Muslims don't have answers reply [318 words]

asma Aug 22, 2007 08:40

a moderate muslim answer and critique [1626 words]

Abdul Rahman Reijerink Jun 28, 2006 09:24

Phew! I failed. [74 words]

Ahmed Jun 20, 2006 19:54

  Does it matter? [224 words]

Ahmed Jun 21, 2006 20:38

  fending ignorance [130 words]

a name would only bias the answer Sep 30, 2006 20:40

  The bottom line......... [19 words]

Tim J Oct 2, 2007 02:37

Jihad [37 words]

Correction Mar 4, 2006 01:42

  Jihad [68 words]

Correction 1 Apr 19, 2006 10:47

Question: did Mohammed kill? [28 words]

Mark Feb 23, 2006 07:37

  Muhammad killed no one. [99 words]

Hajj Dawud Ahmad Jul 14, 2007 00:42

response
[w/response by Daniel Pipes] [124 words]

Khalil Nov 28, 2005 08:27

  Re: I am a historian of Islam [60 words]

Hamza Zuberi Feb 15, 2006 09:51

  Modernity? Why not? [242 words]

Subriah Esharc Jul 15, 2006 02:40

Understand the subject before judging it. [414 words]

Hamza Zuberi Nov 10, 2005 00:38

No straight answers! [57 words]

Mushtaq Ilyas Nov 7, 2005 10:44

With my due respect, America is not the world and 500 years is not the whole human history [51 words]

Abdou Niane Nov 2, 2005 04:54

Congratulations to all Muslims who failed this test. [72 words]

Mahmud Oct 21, 2005 14:05

i agree modernity [53 words]

mohamed mustafa Oct 14, 2005 19:16

  Missunderstanding & Misuse Islam Flexibility [152 words]

Citra Pratiwi Jan 12, 2006 13:04

Here is another question to ask [49 words]

Mark Sharp Sep 29, 2005 08:25

  Yes and yes again... [159 words]

alia Dec 6, 2007 15:01

Definitions [27 words]

Mélissa Sep 26, 2005 14:34

I have failed as a good Muslim should [17 words]

Danial Khan Hadi Sep 25, 2005 02:53

  modernity [15 words]

emy Oct 24, 2006 17:51

FAILED IT ALSO...BY A HUGE MARGIN! [77 words]

Tiger Sep 20, 2005 16:57

I failed the test [29 words]

Muslimah Sep 13, 2005 12:11

Keeping a watchful eye . . [251 words]

Susan Sep 7, 2005 12:42

Being A Moderate Muslim [188 words]

HaSsan Jul 26, 2005 03:07

  fight extremism [19 words]

lavinia Sep 30, 2006 22:37

I passed the test! [237 words]

Hamid Ahmed Jun 18, 2005 09:45

  i appreciate moderate muslims [176 words]

Karen Apr 21, 2007 03:11

Questions that should be asked of Christian fundamentalists [269 words]

Kenneth Corbin Jan 24, 2005 18:36

  Fundementalists are oppressors! [128 words]

duane Apr 22, 2006 18:27

  ;-) [13 words]

Abdul Rahman Reijerink Jun 28, 2006 09:28

  Eh? point by point response [1307 words]

Saikat Aug 21, 2006 15:12

  blasphemy [42 words]

Keoni Feb 13, 2007 02:15

Islamic Counter-Reformation Means Minimal Modernity [156 words]

GWK Jan 13, 2005 14:26

  God bless the brave [184 words]

Abdul Rahman Reijerink Jun 28, 2006 09:38

⇒ Some comments to "Moderate muslim's test": [1006 words]

LK Jan 10, 2005 06:04

Which are inherently radical religions? [248 words]

LK Jan 10, 2005 04:22

Islam appears to be inherently radical [265 words]

Mark Sharp Dec 31, 2004 15:18

  Response to commenter Mark Sharp [345 words]

Victoria Feb 6, 2005 07:45

  you need to get out more [230 words]

Abdul Rahman Reijerink Jun 28, 2006 09:53

Perhaps not the best inquiries [348 words]

Rob James Dec 30, 2004 16:45

Question of tolerance [201 words]

azism Dec 30, 2004 09:39

Proselysing is not anti state [460 words]

Garry Prior Dec 29, 2004 21:28

Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam
[w/response by Daniel Pipes] [378 words]

Ansar Raza Dec 27, 2004 22:39

  Ahmadis and "peace" [44 words]

JpEditor Feb 8, 2008 11:50

Questionnaire overextends its reach. [196 words]

Emmanuel Parello Nov 19, 2004 21:01

Read before you ask questions
[w/response by Daniel Pipes] [79 words]

alia robia Nov 5, 2004 00:36

  Message to Alia Robia and Hamza Yousif [315 words]

Ashoorina Dec 16, 2004 15:32

  Message to Ashoorina [409 words]

Angel Dec 28, 2004 00:40

  a muslim girl in a muslim country [184 words]

maram Feb 26, 2006 08:39

  Regarding Hamza Yusuf: You should read about people before making false assumptions. [160 words]

Manuel F. Nunez Dec 23, 2007 03:06

Feed the brain well [520 words]

Reem Oct 31, 2004 21:17

  Message to Reem and Hamza Yousif [1122 words]

Ashoorina Dec 16, 2004 17:11

HAMZA YUSUF FAILS THE TEST OF DANIEL PIPES [84 words]

Jacob Raphael Oct 13, 2004 16:53

Re accusation of funding terrorism [57 words]

Roslyn Frankl Sep 27, 2004 21:52

Modernity and tradition [36 words]

Esfandiar Gghafari Nasab May 2, 2004 07:42

No such thing as Moderate Islam [58 words]

Mona Abousenna Apr 10, 2004 07:29

just curious.... [855 words]

Joseph Cato Jan 24, 2004 21:37

Modernity? [559 words]

Joseph Breeden Dec 18, 2003 22:40

The test [393 words]

Amr Sabry Dec 17, 2003 11:05

Racism is not answer [727 words]

weasel Dec 17, 2003 02:08

Are all Muslims extremists? [532 words]

hindutva Dec 16, 2003 05:38

  Google - "Quran kill" ... unbelievable [53 words]

Ward Pdan Sep 19, 2006 13:08

  ISLAM:The bitter truth [421 words]

INDIA 4 HINDUS Sep 27, 2006 16:47

  he killed and approved of killing [52 words]

david bare Proffessor of divinity Oct 4, 2006 11:20

  Not all Muslims are extremists! [78 words]

Jasmin Oct 24, 2006 00:32

  MISINFORMED [59 words]

jANIS Dec 29, 2006 14:03

  In response to hindutva, Dec 16, 2003 at 05:38: Are all muslims extremists? [122 words]

observer Jan 4, 2007 19:49

  When? [9 words]

chris Mar 10, 2007 00:39

  Sherman's march on Iraq [1711 words]

B Jul 10, 2007 01:28

  response to observer, Sikhs are NOT hindus, and hindutva IS NOT hinduism. [251 words]

khk Jul 26, 2007 17:08

  SIKHS ARE NOT HINDUS. [100 words]

quag Jul 26, 2007 17:15

What is a moderate muslim? [114 words]

A.Nielsen Dec 14, 2003 12:22

Modernity Question [13 words]

Deep Basu Dec 11, 2003 07:46

Your Useful Questions - an Excellent "Islamist-Litmus Test"
[w/response by Daniel Pipes] [396 words]

Goran Andrijasevic Dec 8, 2003 01:46

Substitute others [40 words]

Michael Powell Dec 7, 2003 19:41

  response to Mr. Powell: Some ideas are essential if we are too live peacefully [215 words]

Bob Greene Dec 16, 2003 23:02

Radical Muslims challenge the thinking we thought was universal [749 words]

Jonathan Pfeffer Dec 7, 2003 01:34

Domination. [20 words]

eric mudasi Dec 5, 2003 03:09

Typical Moderate Muslim [129 words]

N. Khan Dec 4, 2003 13:48

  In response to "Typical Moderate Muslim" [530 words]

Hayyah Jan 25, 2005 14:04

  Clarification of my earlier comment [225 words]

hayyah Jan 25, 2005 14:13

  Moderate PERSON, that happens to be a muslim... [245 words]

Alia Dec 6, 2007 14:34

The Fallacies of Depending on "Moderate" Islam [601 words]

David Ryan Dec 4, 2003 12:16

Should we Privilege Theological Liberalism? [642 words]

Peter J. Herz Dec 4, 2003 08:10

Do you believe in modernity? Nov.26,2003 [37 words]

S.C.Panda Dec 4, 2003 05:45

I would like to apologize to you [27 words]

Jason Eritano Dec 2, 2003 12:52

Khilafism is the fundamental difference [46 words]

Steven Johnson Dec 1, 2003 18:56

  khilafa .. the need of the time [35 words]

Mohhammad al haj Mar 27, 2006 03:12

  Khilafa call tiresome [89 words]

Abdul Rahman Reijerink Jun 28, 2006 10:31

Multiculturalism [79 words]

Jason Eritano Dec 1, 2003 16:17

aren't we forgetting something [119 words]

mark leci Dec 1, 2003 11:28

still their source is one [82 words]

T.A. Dec 1, 2003 04:40

Where is modernity in Islam? [213 words]

samy mikhail Nov 30, 2003 22:36

  wrong perception. [202 words]

bilal ahmed Oct 8, 2007 16:44

  LOL [74 words]

Esmeralda Oct 9, 2007 03:28

Who's moderate? [359 words]

James Nov 30, 2003 20:07

Great idea. . . But. . . [177 words]

Lilith Paloma Nov 30, 2003 10:37

Great questions [22 words]

Sriram Nov 30, 2003 00:48

In addition [67 words]

Adelaide Gerol Meisner Nov 29, 2003 22:46

Questions are concise and to the point [125 words]

Ed Nov 29, 2003 22:18

what is Israel's obligation [81 words]

y Brandstetter Nov 29, 2003 16:44

Moderate Islam? [134 words]

Charles Nov 29, 2003 14:19

Maybe Not [173 words]

Nicholas G. Wion Nov 29, 2003 00:24

Global Goals of Islam [109 words]

Fred Trinker Nov 28, 2003 18:37

Another test for Moderate Muslims [10 words]

Stan Brin Nov 28, 2003 07:44

Now You See Me, Now You Don't [444 words]

Alo Kievalar Nov 28, 2003 07:12

Distinguishing Free Speech From Terrorist Propaganda [102 words]

Yirmeyahu Ben-David Nov 28, 2003 06:53

Re Article- Thanks [5 words]

Bill McCraw Nov 27, 2003 20:19

Great suggestions but ... [161 words]

Ivan Barna Nov 27, 2003 20:01

Your commentary on Muslims [9 words]

Walter D'Ull Nov 27, 2003 17:47

You must not trust them at all [175 words]

f shawki Nov 27, 2003 17:38

another 'Useful Question'? [106 words]

ron thompson Nov 27, 2003 17:15

Thanks [27 words]

Robert G. Mogull Nov 27, 2003 13:36

Nice ! Very nice Daniel [133 words]

Kaiser Nov 27, 2003 12:49

The Myth of Tests for (and of?) Moderate Islam. [393 words]

Patrick Moore Nov 27, 2003 12:05

Remember the Left [330 words]

Jason Eritano Nov 27, 2003 10:33

Is Muslim Modernity Possible? [132 words]

Darwin Barrett Nov 27, 2003 10:25

Islamic Leadership in the United States [182 words]

Professor Nitza Nachmias Nov 27, 2003 03:47

Excellent questions [24 words]

Joseph M. Ellis Nov 27, 2003 02:29

Nice Try, BUT WRONG [37 words]

mvm Nov 26, 2003 23:54

Pretence is more than just a possibility its a near certainty [137 words]

Lloyd Lionel Klein Nov 26, 2003 18:52

  If you really want to know the truth. [140 words]

A guy Jul 4, 2008 17:53

Moderate? [49 words]

Charles Tisse Nov 26, 2003 18:48

How fine a line, or, where's the cameleon? [177 words]

yonason Nov 26, 2003 16:51

One question only [105 words]

Boris Galinsky Nov 26, 2003 14:31

Tolerance [110 words]

Stephen Berman Nov 26, 2003 14:19

Moderate what? [159 words]

Gideon Kanner Nov 26, 2003 13:49

DO YOU BELEIVE IN MODERNITY [76 words]

Frank Malek Nov 26, 2003 13:16

Thank you [259 words]

Susan Petrea Nov 26, 2003 13:12

Civil Liberties should be supspended [310 words]

Jason Eritano Nov 26, 2003 13:04

Profile Me! [76 words]

Marc Segan Nov 26, 2003 11:01

Muslim definition of "innocence" [39 words]

Alex Coalson Nov 26, 2003 10:43

Islam vs. Modernity [133 words]

Arlinda DeAngelis Nov 26, 2003 10:43

Pipes' Intelligent Analysis of Islam [396 words]

Anne Helton Nov 26, 2003 10:33

ONE Islamic cleric? [64 words]

Scott Nov 26, 2003 10:31

Modernity [32 words]

Sandy Price Nov 26, 2003 10:29

Moderate criteria
[w/response by Daniel Pipes] [269 words]

Boris Frenkel Nov 26, 2003 10:21

TRUTH is Hard to Find due to al-taqiyya and al-tauriya. [1266 words]

D. Walls Nov 26, 2003 10:02

  You make the truth even harder to find [198 words]

Abdul Rahman Reijerink Jun 28, 2006 10:11

Islam and Modernity [274 words]

Vijay Dandapani Nov 26, 2003 09:51

  In response to commenter "Vijay" [275 words]

Reem Oct 31, 2004 21:29

Where Are the Moderate Muslims?
[w/response by Daniel Pipes] [58 words]

Richard Rheiner Nov 26, 2003 09:47

Blame the Left [207 words]

Jason Eritano Nov 26, 2003 09:45

Questions for "Moderate" Muslims [67 words]

Orley Swartzentruber Nov 26, 2003 09:40

  Response to Swartzentruber [37 words]

Bob Dec 16, 2003 14:26

I agree, except for one point
[w/response by Daniel Pipes] [209 words]

David Bernstein Nov 26, 2003 09:26

What is Islam [282 words]

Budd Kopman Nov 26, 2003 09:18

Solution? [5 words]

Morton Nov 26, 2003 09:16

Moderate Muslims [40 words]

Patrick Mulligan Nov 26, 2003 09:05

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Mark my comment as a response to Some comments to "Moderate muslim's test": by reader LK

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened for relevance, substance, and tone, and in some cases edited, before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome, but comments are rejected if scurrilous, off-topic, vulgar, ad hominem, or otherwise viewed as inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the Guidelines for Comments.

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