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a moderate muslim answer and critique

Reader comment on item: [Finding Moderate Muslims:] Do you believe in modernity?

Submitted by Abdul Rahman Reijerink (Australia), Jun 28, 2006 at 09:24

I quote Dr. Pipes with my answers/responses below.

Useful questions might include:

  • Violence: Do you condone or condemn the Palestinians, Chechens, and Kashmiris who give up their lives to kill enemy civilians? Will you condemn by name as terrorist groups such organizations as Abu Sayyaf, Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, Groupe Islamique Armée, Hamas, Harakat ul-Mujahidin, Hizbullah, Islamic Jihad, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Lashkar-e-Tayyiba, and al-Qaida?

Suicide attacks on civilians or with civilian casualties are sinful. Many of the named groups are terrorist or commit terrorist acts (like most groups who use violence ex: British RAF in area bombing of Europe) others I just don't recognise.

  • Modernity: Should Muslim women have equal rights with men (for example, in inheritance shares or court testimony)? Is jihad, meaning a form of warfare, acceptable in today's world? Do you accept the validity of other religions? Do Muslims have anything to learn from the West?

Muslim women in my view do have equal rights and this is with religious backing. I do not accept the equivalent but different rights arguement although doing so is not necessarily oppresive to women. Jihad does not mean a form of warfare, although in very limted circumstances it can be applied to warfare. Like most westerners I do accept that war is a valid human interaction if conducted lawfully. It is however regrettable and never to be engaged in lightly. If by "validity" you mean correctness, other religions especially Judaism and (if with true monotheism even with a tripatite God) Christianity do offer a path to God possibly even non-monotheistic faiths especially for those who have not had a chance to hear the truth (as I view it), Islam is the best way. All religions have value where they improve human behaviour and our treatment of others and the creation of God. How many Christians accept the validity of non-Christian faith as delivering not just a good way to live but Salvation? Of course Muslims have something to learn from "the west". As if they are totally seperate entites, I find these types of false dichotomies amusing (I am afterall both muslim and "western"), I expect clearer and more precise language from you Dr. Pipes, this is not Fox. All human socities have something valuable to offer other ones, this is quite clearly evident in many Qur'anic ayat.

  • Secularism: Should non-Muslims enjoy completely equal civil rights with Muslims? May Muslims convert to other religions? May Muslim women marry non-Muslim men? Do you accept the laws of a majority non-Muslim government and unreservedly pledge allegiance to that government? Should the state impose religious observance, such as banning food service during Ramadan? When Islamic customs conflict with secular laws (e.g., covering the face for drivers' license pictures), which should give way?

equal rights. yes. conversion, yes (no compulsion in religion). intermarriage, yes ( there is no specific prohibition in the Qur'an, although I believe cross faith marriage is a bad idea for anyone, it creates avoidable problems.

I accept the laws of my country although I may disagree with some of them. I (and I think also that you or most of your readers) refuse to pledge allegiance to my government (what kind of crazy pledge is that, it belongs in countries like North Korea and China not democracies like our countries, places with the type of governmental/ ideological systems that I though you disliked Dr.Pipes!!). I do however pledge allegiance to my beloved country, the land of my forefathers, this does not mean agreeing to support everything my state does, and nor should it, conscience had primacy. the state should not intervene in religious practise (to enforce or refuse religious practise as in the case of france), it should merely protect the right to practise religion without fear or favour. Why does Parliament in my country open with Christian prayers, does your government do the same?

Custom/law conflict... it depends on the circumstances.... if you want to cover your face you should not be driving, that is just dangerous. Generally a muslim should obey the laws of the country they are in this is a religious obligation, but then what about laws like the Nuremburg laws? A military officer is in most democracies theoretically supposed to not obey an otherwise lawful order that goes against his/her concsience, how far can we extend this principle, civil disobedience has an honourable history.

  • Islamic pluralism: Are Sufis and Shi'ites fully legitimate Muslims? Do you see Muslims who disagree with you as having fallen into unbelief? Is takfir (condemning fellow Muslims with whom one has disagreements as unbelievers) an acceptable practice?

a muslim is anyone who says that there is no God but God, and that Muhammad is his prophet and not retracted this. The most a muslim can say about another is that the other is sinful. The practise of Takfir is sinful. Only God can judge our hearts. There is plenty of evidence for this. Shifty arguements to the contrary have a very shady history and were used to justify criminal behaviour (with tacit British support due to poltical reasons) of the House of Saud at the prompting of Ibn Abdul Wahhab who loved to draw up huge lists of Muslims he wanted to execute because they disagreed with him.... life is sacrosanct, apostasy is not a legitimate reason to take it.

  • Self-criticism: Do you accept the legitimacy of scholarly inquiry into the origins of Islam? Who was responsible for the 9/11 suicide hijackings?

Scholarly inquiry. welcome however I am wary of prejudice masquerading as "impartial" inquiry.

9/11, in all probability people who either are misled Muslims or think of themselves as Muslims. I trhink that crackpot even took credit for it, but I am not sure as I don't watch much TV.(its a waste of time)

  • Defense against militant Islam: Do you accept enhanced security measures to fight militant Islam, even if this means extra scrutiny of yourself (for example, at airline security)? Do you agree that institutions accused of funding terrorism should be shut down, or do you see this a symptom of bias?

What exactly is "militant Islam"? If you mean terrorists trying to cloak themselves in respectability by bad reasoning, then please use a more appropriate term.

security. yes, but wary of misuse of state power as every democracy lover should be. security should be transparent and open to scrutiny by third parties (elected reps, judges, red cross, UN, press etc) ex: unlike detention of suspects at Guantanamo Bay etc...

Institutions ACCUSED of funding terrorism should be scrutinised and under go the normal process of law. Innocent until proven guilty. People may also unknowingly fund terrorism and they should be given a good chance to clear themselves, as many give money to charity only to have it misused. People need to hold those they give funds to more accountable when they elect to hand these funds over, especially disaster relief (a common reason at Mosques as muslims are very generous at these times but too uncritical of who they give money to and in being trusting they rarely ask for credentials and proof of where it is being spent)

  • Goals in the West: Do you accept that Western countries are majority-Christian and secular or do you seek to transform them into majority-Muslim countries ruled by Islamic law?

I think that most "western" countries are not christian majority except in name. Most people who claim to be Christians have little idea of what that means and hold very unorthadox beliefs. the US is a rare exception in its level of Christian belief/practise. I question how secular these countries are when Christian ritual plays such an enormous role in the running of the state (ex: bibles handed out as a matter of course in court to juries with no-one being asked if they wish to make a secular affirmation or other religious oath when I was on a jury). I believe that Muslims have the right to elect people who will enact legislation that reflects muslim beliefs but does not enforce muslim behaviour, ex: like the laws against murder which are to some extent informed by a Christian understanding, this is not forcing Christianity on anyone, just informing the behaviour of the legislators by their convictions, convictions that many were elected for having... democracy.

the area of Muslim law and what it constitues is a complex area that is terribly misunderstood by most people and this is not surprising as most muslims do not understand the role of the Sharia in society either. I think that modern ideas about Sharia have been perverted by a modern post colonial aproach that conflates the Sharia methodology with "western" approaches to law, where the law is enforced by a state and has a definable solution that is correct for any given problem.... this is in my understanding an ahistorical view of the role of Sharia. Further embellishment to complex for this place.

Dr. Pipes, on the whole i think many of these questions are a useful means of seperating the sheep from the goats so to speak, but they also catch too many neo-traditionalists as well (like Hamza Yusuf who in my opinion is a very good man and a very important person in interfaith understanding and powerful voice for calm and moderation), who are essentailly no threat to anyone and useful allies, and through sloppy language it catches genuine modernists as well. I think you could have targetted some of these questions more appropriately with clearer and more accurate language and thinking. In general (i.e. with relation to most of your work) I disagree frequently with many of your conclusions but believe that usually you have a very high academic standard that is hard to match. Not so here. Sorry.

In Peace,

Abdul Rahman.

Submitting....

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Title Commenter Date Thread
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My opinions [607 words]Jeffrey SchillingJun 25, 2012 16:10196675
1all [142 words]slave of Allah!Feb 16, 2012 02:27193402
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mask down [21 words]ruiJan 29, 2012 22:30192894
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Wa 'alaikumussalam, I forgot [31 words]FahmiApr 27, 2011 18:20183841
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re: 5 minutes [72 words]davidFeb 1, 2007 21:0053735
there you go [15 words]Frank CottonAug 20, 2007 12:1753735
Cute but Ignorant Comments... [1101 words]Manuel F. NuñezJan 2, 2008 09:0653735
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siempre lo mismo, me han cansado estos artículos todos iguales [93 words]Manuela GarreffaFeb 27, 2012 03:3149263
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Jihad [68 words]Correction 1Apr 19, 2006 10:4738830
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1Missunderstanding & Misuse Islam Flexibility [152 words]Citra PratiwiJan 12, 2006 13:0426960
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Yes and yes again... [159 words]aliaDec 6, 2007 15:0126443
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he killed and approved of killing [52 words]david bare Proffessor of divinityOct 4, 2006 11:2012669
Not all Muslims are extremists! [78 words]JasminOct 24, 2006 00:3212669
MISINFORMED [59 words]jANISDec 29, 2006 14:0312669
In response to hindutva, Dec 16, 2003 at 05:38: Are all muslims extremists? [122 words]observerJan 4, 2007 19:4912669
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Sherman's march on Iraq [1711 words]BJul 10, 2007 01:2812669
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i dont believe it [76 words]AnnaApr 14, 2010 23:2912669
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I condemn that it's completely against the context in quran [47 words]MohammedJan 10, 2012 16:1412669
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Your Useful Questions - an Excellent "Islamist-Litmus Test" [396 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Goran AndrijasevicDec 8, 2003 01:4612527
Substitute others [40 words]Michael PowellDec 7, 2003 19:4112520
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Typical Moderate Muslim [129 words]N. KhanDec 4, 2003 13:4812481
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Clarification of my earlier comment [225 words]hayyahJan 25, 2005 14:1312481
Moderate PERSON, that happens to be a muslim... [245 words]AliaDec 6, 2007 14:3412481
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I would like to apologize to you [27 words]Jason EritanoDec 2, 2003 12:5212418
Khilafism is the fundamental difference [46 words]Steven JohnsonDec 1, 2003 18:5612406
khilafa .. the need of the time [35 words]Mohhammad al hajMar 27, 2006 03:1212406
Khilafa call tiresome [89 words]Abdul Rahman ReijerinkJun 28, 2006 10:3112406
Multiculturalism [79 words]Jason EritanoDec 1, 2003 16:1712403
aren't we forgetting something [119 words]mark leciDec 1, 2003 11:2812400
still their source is one [82 words]T.A.Dec 1, 2003 04:4012393
Where is modernity in Islam? [213 words]samy mikhailNov 30, 2003 22:3612392
wrong perception. [202 words]bilal ahmedOct 8, 2007 16:4412392
LOL [74 words]EsmeraldaOct 9, 2007 03:2812392
Who's moderate? [359 words]JamesNov 30, 2003 20:0712391
Great idea. . . But. . . [177 words]Lilith PalomaNov 30, 2003 10:3712387
Great questions [22 words]SriramNov 30, 2003 00:4812383
In addition [67 words]Adelaide Gerol MeisnerNov 29, 2003 22:4612381
Questions are concise and to the point [125 words]EdNov 29, 2003 22:1812380
what is Israel's obligation [81 words]y BrandstetterNov 29, 2003 16:4412376
Moderate Islam? [134 words]CharlesNov 29, 2003 14:1912375
Maybe Not [173 words]Nicholas G. WionNov 29, 2003 00:2412370
Global Goals of Islam [109 words]Fred TrinkerNov 28, 2003 18:3712368
Another test for Moderate Muslims [10 words]Stan BrinNov 28, 2003 07:4412362
Now You See Me, Now You Don't [444 words]Alo KievalarNov 28, 2003 07:1212361
Distinguishing Free Speech From Terrorist Propaganda [102 words]Yirmeyahu Ben-DavidNov 28, 2003 06:5312360
Re Article- Thanks [5 words]Bill McCrawNov 27, 2003 20:1912356
Great suggestions but ... [161 words]Ivan BarnaNov 27, 2003 20:0112355
Your commentary on Muslims [9 words]Walter D'UllNov 27, 2003 17:4712354
You must not trust them at all [175 words]f shawkiNov 27, 2003 17:3812353
another 'Useful Question'? [106 words]ron thompsonNov 27, 2003 17:1512352
Thanks [27 words]Robert G. MogullNov 27, 2003 13:3612350
Nice ! Very nice Daniel [133 words]KaiserNov 27, 2003 12:4912349
The Myth of Tests for (and of?) Moderate Islam. [393 words]Patrick MooreNov 27, 2003 12:0512346
Remember the Left [330 words]Jason EritanoNov 27, 2003 10:3312344
Is Muslim Modernity Possible? [132 words]Darwin BarrettNov 27, 2003 10:2512343
Islamic Leadership in the United States [182 words]Professor Nitza NachmiasNov 27, 2003 03:4712341
Excellent questions [24 words]Joseph M. EllisNov 27, 2003 02:2912340
Nice Try, BUT WRONG [37 words]mvmNov 26, 2003 23:5412339
Pretence is more than just a possibility its a near certainty [137 words]Lloyd Lionel KleinNov 26, 2003 18:5212335
If you really want to know the truth. [140 words]A guyJul 4, 2008 17:5312335
Moderate? [49 words]Charles TisseNov 26, 2003 18:4812334
How fine a line, or, where's the cameleon? [177 words]yonasonNov 26, 2003 16:5112332
One question only [105 words]Boris GalinskyNov 26, 2003 14:3112330
Tolerance [110 words]Stephen BermanNov 26, 2003 14:1912328
Moderate what? [159 words]Gideon KannerNov 26, 2003 13:4912326
DO YOU BELEIVE IN MODERNITY [76 words]Frank MalekNov 26, 2003 13:1612324
Thank you [259 words]Susan PetreaNov 26, 2003 13:1212323
Civil Liberties should be supspended [310 words]Jason EritanoNov 26, 2003 13:0412322
Profile Me! [76 words]Marc SeganNov 26, 2003 11:0112319
Muslim definition of "innocence" [39 words]Alex CoalsonNov 26, 2003 10:4312317
Islam vs. Modernity [133 words]Arlinda DeAngelisNov 26, 2003 10:4312316
Pipes' Intelligent Analysis of Islam [396 words]Anne HeltonNov 26, 2003 10:3312314
ONE Islamic cleric? [64 words]ScottNov 26, 2003 10:3112313
Modernity [32 words]Sandy PriceNov 26, 2003 10:2912312
Moderate criteria [269 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Boris FrenkelNov 26, 2003 10:2112311
1TRUTH is Hard to Find due to al-taqiyya and al-tauriya. [1266 words]D. WallsNov 26, 2003 10:0212309
You make the truth even harder to find [198 words]Abdul Rahman ReijerinkJun 28, 2006 10:1112309
Islam and Modernity [274 words]Vijay DandapaniNov 26, 2003 09:5112308
In response to commenter "Vijay" [275 words]ReemOct 31, 2004 21:2912308
Where Are the Moderate Muslims? [58 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Richard RheinerNov 26, 2003 09:4712307
Blame the Left [207 words]Jason EritanoNov 26, 2003 09:4512306
Questions for "Moderate" Muslims [67 words]Orley SwartzentruberNov 26, 2003 09:4012305
Response to Swartzentruber [37 words]BobDec 16, 2003 14:2612305
I agree, except for one point [209 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
David BernsteinNov 26, 2003 09:2612304
What is Islam [282 words]Budd KopmanNov 26, 2003 09:1812303
Solution? [5 words]MortonNov 26, 2003 09:1612302
1Moderate Muslims [40 words]Patrick MulliganNov 26, 2003 09:0512301

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