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My answer to Mr. Tovey-Continuing

Reader comment on item: Goodbye Ankara
in response to reader comment: Not All Zionists View Zionism the Same

Submitted by Debanjan Banerjee (India), Sep 23, 2011 at 07:10

Dear Mr. Tovey ,

Thanks a lot for responding to my answers. Now please find below my responses to your arguments.

1. "While it is definitely certain that cultural differences do exist between the American style and others, it cannot be denied that the death cultures practiced in the absence of American influences are not any better."

What death cultures are you talking about Mr Tovey ? By your own definition then America is the biggest exporter of death culture around the World and particularly in the Muslim world. As per as I know there were no suicide bombings either in Iraq , Afghanistan or Pakistan before the American involvements in theose countries so surely American intervention has helped to produce the vicioud death culture of suicide bombing that we see in these parts of the Muslim world as we see it today. Even in the America itself , according to some statistics , more people are killed in domestic gun crimes than anywhere else in the Muslim World due to suicide bombings. America is the country which jails more people and executes more people. So which country is the promoter of the culture of death here ?

"Further, death and destruction in the Philippines etc., at the hands of others than Americans were part and parcel of the original changes in culture not caused by Americans."

American intervention in the Philippines did cause massive humanitarian disaster in that country. It resulted in a death of 1.5 million Philippino civilians (apprx.) The Philippinos were innocents who were fighting independence agaisnt the Spanish rule when they asked America for support and succur. Surely they did not want to be under the colonial jackboot of American exceptionalism. Have you heard the name of Samuel Longhorn Clemens ? He is also known as Mark twain. Please read this writing of him on American massacre of Moro people in Philippins. http://www.is.wayne.edu/mnissani/cr/moro.htm

2. "America's problem in the purported failures of extending democracy to other nations is that there is a misunderstanding of the freedom and independence Americans enjoy that other cultures seem reluctant and cannot embrace."

Can you kindlky be little more specific to explain exactly what freedom and independence you are talking about here that American enjoy simply because they are an "exceptional" people ? Say the case of Rachel Corie or Furkan Dogan. These were American citizens who were killed by the army of your "apple of the eye of the GOD" and America has not brought into justice those perpetrators of the crime because those perpetrators happened to share a faith of people who happen to be the "apple of the eye of the GOD". So American concepts of freedom and independence is not for the people like Rachel Corie and Furkan Dogan I guess. Some freedom and independence is this...

Have you heard about Hose Padilla ? He was recently sent behind the bars for simply embracing Islam. Some freedom is this I guess..

3. "Further, you are definitely not going to make a successful argument by trying to link Israel with the likes of Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, a contradiction of empathies if ever there was one."

There is a similarity in between Israel and the likes of Saudi Arabia , Bahrain etc since both the two countries happen to be status-quo states sharing each other's objectives at this moment of history. For Israel they want to continue their hold upon the land they occupied in the 1967 war and for Saudi Arabia the house of Saud wants to perpetuate its authoritarian rule over its population. So in this case both the countries are status-quo states who want to perpetuate the present circumstances which they enjoy. Moreover , both enjoy strong backing by America which also reflects the strong connection between the two. Both Isreal and Saudi Arabia (as well as their lackies in Washington) are hostile to the Islamic republic in Iran since the Islamic republic represents a different model for the region contrary to the ossified status-quo that Israel , Saudi Arabia or the US represents. This is just similar to the axis powers during WWII like Third Reich , Imperial Japan and Fascist Italy comeing together.

4. "America was never intended to be popular with the Arab world, a world that was not a major concern to America until World War One when the British consorted with the Arabic communities and World War Two when America was faced with siding with Israel after the mufti's of the Middle East consorted with the Third Reich against the Jewish populations already resident in the Middle East."

Mr. Tovie you are contradicting yourself. By your own admission America invaded the Muslim World in 1803 for supposedly grievances so how can you justify that the Muslim world was never America's major concern before the First World war.

America was concerned to the West Asian region primarily because of Oil. Read David Fromkin's "A peace to end all peace" whereby it is clearly mentioned that Standard Oil was interested in the natural resources in the West Asian theatre even prior to the outbreak of the World War I.

Regarding why America was invovled in the West Asian theatre during and World War II is also the same reason that it was involved in the World War I and it was Oil ,, my dear Mr. Tovie. Another point was that since America in the post-1945 World had become a particular hegemon in the Western sphere it wanted to contain the influences of Soviet Union in the region. America also wanted primarily its own hegemony in the region and preservation of authoritarainship in the region that is why it toppled the pro-democracy secular Mossadegh regime in Iran with the pro-US and tyrannical Shah regime.

5. The Muslim world needs to learn a lot from America (and Israel) . These are the things I believe the Muslims need to learn from the US (and Israel)

a. Missionary zeal (The missionary zeal was something that gave the early Muslims victories over the huge empires like the Persian or Byzantine empires. The most problem that one finds in the current statioanry nature of Muslim thinking is because of a lack of missionary zeal which is present in America. This is something Muslims can learn from America)

b. Conviction about one's ideas (The early Ameircan founding fathers and the early Israeli Zionists are great examples of this)

c. Work-culture and Organizational skills (This is where Muslims lack most now days. There is almost no work-culture , descipline and organizational skill present in the Muslim world. I attribute to the Muslim lack of a sense of purpose in life as early Muslims used to have in them. This can be bettered by gradual immigration to the Western world whereby Muslims learn to be more organizational and hard-working)

These are the things Muslims can and should try to learn from America and Israel. However democracy or any other Western values are not needed since I do not consider those are values worthy of emulating by Muslims from Americans and Israelis.

Submitting....

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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Reader comments (77) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
3Genocide recognition [39 words]RafiSep 22, 2011 18:50189491
7That outrageous official position no decent person can ever support [222 words]IanusSep 25, 2011 09:51189491
2Turkey, NATO and Israel [108 words]KenSep 12, 2011 19:02189296
3If ONLY Turkey, NATO, vs Israel [121 words]M. ToveySep 14, 2011 18:07189296
14Goodbye Ankara ! Good morning Athens! [391 words]IanusSep 12, 2011 11:56189293
Why so much against Turkey? [724 words]li lrSep 9, 2011 19:15189210
4why so much against Turkey? [103 words]Liz K.Oct 27, 2011 17:51189210
2Proud of what ? [61 words]IanusOct 29, 2011 13:01189210
5Islamist Demon vs. Reason [20 words]MosheSep 8, 2011 04:36189179
Dear Dr. Pipes [527 words]Debanjan BanerjeeSep 7, 2011 04:36189150
1To Be NATO, or Not To Be NATO; That is the Question....Etc., Etc. [399 words]M. ToveySep 8, 2011 14:19189150
1Dear Mr. Tovi [302 words]Debanjan BanerjeeSep 10, 2011 00:16189150
1Turkey at the Edge of Its Destiny [250 words]M. ToveySep 13, 2011 11:37189150
Dear Mr. Tovi [231 words]Debanjan BanerjeeSep 20, 2011 11:39189150
1The Coming and Going of 'Ummah' - What Will It Cost When Israel Wins [600 words]M. ToveySep 22, 2011 12:14189150
1The Time is Approaching for Turkey [106 words]M. ToveySep 6, 2011 14:02189143
4A Warning [152 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Clifford IshiiSep 5, 2011 19:34189125
1i never knew [70 words]Ali LawalSep 5, 2011 18:48189124
There is difference between the two [57 words]Ravi Ranjan Singh Bharat PanthiSep 7, 2011 10:59189124
3Relationships are About MUTUAL Respect-Who is Respecting Israel Now? [534 words]M. ToveySep 7, 2011 11:37189124
Hi Mr. Tovey [255 words]Debanjan BanerjeeSep 8, 2011 01:45189124
5Debanjan Banerjee's hypocrisy [123 words]PrashantSep 9, 2011 00:24189124
3Searching for Respect for Israel [364 words]M. ToveySep 13, 2011 11:20189124
2Watch Turkey by its action not its word! [131 words]BASep 3, 2011 23:15189075
1Turks are going to solve the Kurdish problem very soon [170 words]Debanjan BanerjeeSep 8, 2011 01:55189075
4Debanjan Banerjee's utopia [76 words]PrashantSep 9, 2011 00:12189075
My answer to Mr. Prashant [189 words]Debanjan BanerjeeSep 10, 2011 00:01189075
Zionist Amicus Curiae [174 words]M. ToveySep 13, 2011 19:33189075
Dear Mr. Tovi [471 words]Debanjan BanerjeeSep 20, 2011 12:02189075
4More hypocrisy [195 words]prashantSep 21, 2011 03:06189075
Not All Zionists View Zionism the Same [646 words]M. ToveySep 21, 2011 19:01189075
1My answer to Mr. Tovey-Continuing [1181 words]Debanjan BanerjeeSep 23, 2011 07:10189075
1Dear Mr. Prashant [826 words]Debanjan BanerjeeSep 26, 2011 00:32189075
1Ask the Right Questions-Get the Right Answer [572 words]M. ToveySep 26, 2011 16:05189075
1My Reply to M Tovey--- Continued [807 words]Debanjan BanerjeeSep 28, 2011 10:54189075
1Preaching the Real Point [770 words]M. ToveySep 28, 2011 15:51189075
More to MR. Tovey [524 words]Debanjan BanerjeeSep 28, 2011 22:31189075
And To Debanjan [766 words]M. ToveySep 29, 2011 19:24189075
Well, Now You've Done It. [51 words]M. ToveySep 29, 2011 19:28189075
More Answers to Mr. Tovey [467 words]Debanjan BanerjeeOct 2, 2011 00:02189075
1Time for Repentance is Short - Now is the Appointed Time [180 words]M. ToveyOct 3, 2011 19:01189075
3Saw it coming [43 words]HudsolSep 3, 2011 20:14189072
1Turkey's new goals: restore the caliphate and lead the Middle East. [46 words]PSep 12, 2011 01:48189072
18Turkey is a turkey who's time has come. [157 words]Cherif El-AyoutySep 3, 2011 04:51189053
2Goodbye Ankara [44 words]David RoseSep 3, 2011 03:45189052
2Hello Ankara [180 words]Jay1Sep 2, 2011 23:52189049
2Time for the reckoning [36 words]Rebecca MouldsSep 2, 2011 22:37189048
Goodbye Ankara [301 words]Nelson D'SilvaSep 2, 2011 20:58189041
4Goodbye Ankara [68 words]Paul SeverienSep 2, 2011 20:14189039
3Turkey will be a test case [87 words]PrashantSep 5, 2011 02:21189039
3No more Turkey [10 words]RomanSep 2, 2011 20:02189038
9Turkey has fumbles the Israel-Turkey relations ball [154 words]NuritGSep 2, 2011 19:54189037
4about your article above [32 words]peyamiSep 2, 2011 19:52189036
4turkish ethnofascism [100 words]L. ManoharSep 5, 2011 11:30189036
Reply to Manohar [148 words]Kepha HorSep 6, 2011 20:15189036
1Ahh-Turkey, Turkey, Turkey -When Will They Ever Learn [241 words]M. ToveySep 7, 2011 18:50189036
11"Turkey ... a model of modernity and moderation for other Muslims to follow" [3934 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
IanusSep 8, 2011 11:41189036
10Modernity or modernized barbarity ? [783 words]IanusSep 11, 2011 15:01189036
1you are totally wrong [107 words]MAliSep 24, 2011 16:43189036
6Enemies and friends of barbarity [496 words]IanusSep 25, 2011 10:51189036
1after careful reading ... [660 words]M.AliSep 26, 2011 14:17189036
8The Skull Tower of Niš or what Turks mean by "love" and "humanity" [760 words]IanusSep 27, 2011 16:20189036
.. try to love [674 words]M.AliSep 28, 2011 03:59189036
1My Answer [103 words]Debanjan BanerjeeSep 28, 2011 10:59189036
6Anachronism as "history" [788 words]IanusSep 29, 2011 09:20189036
4Wolves and their "love" [232 words]IanusSep 29, 2011 10:26189036
1Truth sets one free [391 words]Debanjan BanerjeeSep 29, 2011 23:55189036
4Liars on truth [220 words]IanusOct 2, 2011 13:39189036
Dear Mr. Ianus [176 words]Debanjan BanerjeeOct 2, 2011 23:00189036
5The most important dates in human history 490 B.C., A.D. 717, A.D. 732 [867 words]IanusOct 4, 2011 15:32189036
Human History Vs Cosmic History [404 words]M. ToveyOct 12, 2011 11:40189036
ianus [149 words]Safa BalOct 15, 2011 17:28189036
5Atavistic Turks [249 words]IanusOct 15, 2011 20:21189036
Turkish Jews [703 words]BuyukAdamOct 22, 2011 11:04189036
1Turkey : A Nation in a different zone in a different time [36 words]jacob smithMay 24, 2012 01:39189036
2The happiness of following "the Turkish way of thinking and perception" [273 words]IanusMay 25, 2012 17:22189036
1The Sepharadic Jews of Suleiman the Magnificent used to be the majority of the Jews. Nowadays the Ashkenazi Jews are the majority... [524 words]Petros HouhoulisJan 23, 2014 19:46189036

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