Submitted by Bart Willruth (United States), Sep 18, 2006 at 10:29
SARA
We are speaking past each other and are certainly not communicating in any meaningful sense. I will take it upon myself that I am not communicating clearly. But let me clarify some things.
You are under a misunderstanding when you speak of me and my fellow Jewish agnostics. I am not Jewish. I am a former Christian theologian, formerly believing in such tenets as the infallibility of scripture, born again, justified by the death and resurrection of Jesus, and associate editor of EVANGELICA magazine. Trust me, I understand your perspective clearly.
I am not making an exact equivalency between Islam and Christianity. Here me clearly, Islam is evil. It has no redeeming values. It has brought ignorance and poverty to its adherants and danger to its foes.
Since the Enlightenment, Christianity has been generally more tolerant than in the 1500 years which preceeded it. It is not in the same category in its effects as Islam.
I don't wish to argue theology. It is an internally contradictory discipline and based upon arbitrary premises.
The similarity between Islam, Judaism, Christianity, animism, Hinduism, et al is not primarily to be found in the content of their teachings. Rather, it is to be found in the foundation of FAITH which underlies them. Is faith a proper means of acquiring knowledge? The two most important questions each of us needs to ask in all things are:
1. What do I know?
2. How do I know it?
If I answer that I know that my great grandfather's spirit inhabits the oak tree outside my hut, and that I know it because the respected members of my tribe told so, you can be sure that I belong to a primitive culture which believes in spirits (whatever they are), that they inhabit natural objects (in some unknown manner) and that I "know" these things by faith. Faith, as a method of "knowing," whether in this simple example or in the example of the truth of the Koran, or of the truth of the doctrine of the trinity, is never removed from its base which is to take the word of the person making an extraordinary claim over the judgment of a rational mind. Faith, as a method of "knowing" requires the suspension of necessary skepticism when confronted with any mystical claims. Faith, by its very nature, is not exercised primarily in its object eg God, spirits, gnomes, or in particular doctrines. Rather, faith is always exercised in the veracity of another human being.
It is useful to keep in mind a word of advice from the philosopher Ayn Rand: "Check your premises."
In your case, your faith has several derivative levels or premises:
1. You believe that there is a god.
2. You believe that god has revealed himself
3. You believe that some particular men in antiquity have been the recipient of that revelation.
4. You further believe that they transmitted that information without error, without human coloring or influence, and that the material they wrote was preserved throughout the many layers of copying so that we know exactly what they wrote originally.
5. You believe that the early church sorted through the various competing writings and infallibly chose the ones which were authentic while discarding the others.
6. You believe that the method of interpretation used by fundamentalists is the correct one.
In brief, here is some food for thought. Item one is an arbitrary statement and is a conclusion rather than an an axiomatic premise upon which to build a line of thought. Item two is arbitrary as well. Neither one nor two has evidence behind them. Premise three is a faith claim. It is unknowable. Many of the men in question are anonymous, made no particular claim to having received any revelation, and cannot be questioned as to their motives or veracity. Premise four is a faith statement which is more than most of the individual documents claim for themselves. It flies in the face of the evidence of historical circumstantial influence which is quite obvious. It requires a belief in magic. And the changes in the ancient texts through various successions of hand copying, whether accidental or deliberate are so numerous as to make certainty as to the content of the original texts impossible. Premise five is a really long shot. Suppression of documents occurred. Documents were argued over and were received or discarded on the basis of political power and through majority vote of committees. Premise six is using an innovative principle of interpretation of scripture only 100 years old. It has no precedent in the entire history of Christianity until 100 years ago. Not in the early church fathers, not in Catholic history, nor in historical Protestantism. It is an American invention. Its late rise to prominence among Evangelicals should give pause to anyone adhering to it. That weakness alone makes the conclusions you reach as to the place of Israel something which can disappear just as quickly as it came into being in the last century.
Check your premises. They aren't quite as defensible as you might think.
Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened for relevance, substance, and tone, and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome, but comments are rejected if scurrilous, off-topic, vulgar, ad hominem, or otherwise viewed as inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the Guidelines for Comments. For informational purposes, we identify countries from which comments are sent.
| Title |
By |
Date |
| The Painful But Absolute Truth [100 words] | Seamus MacNemi | Feb 25, 2007 14:52 |
| ↔ Israel and Islam [182 words] | Noha A. Yousri | Sep 6, 2007 14:08 |
| ↔ Reply to Noha Yousri [90 words] | Seamus MacNemi | Sep 6, 2007 16:52 |
| ↔ Reply to Seamus MacNemi [140 words] | Noha Yousri | Sep 7, 2007 22:09 |
| ↔ Reply to Noha Yousri [192 words] | Seamus MacNemi | Sep 10, 2007 17:56 |
| ↔ Our dear Noha and masha'allah! [524 words] | dhimmi no more | Sep 12, 2007 11:24 |
| ↔ god [70 words] | dr john jolliyo | Aug 11, 2009 01:44 |
| ↔ You have a say in what you believe. [238 words] | Lynn | Sep 27, 2009 10:11 |
| ⇒ RESPONSE TO SARA [851 words] | Bart Willruth | Sep 18, 2006 10:29 |
| ↔ how great a fall, Bart [356 words] | sara | Oct 3, 2006 07:44 |
| why the heck do Jews STILL vote Democrat? [110 words] | sara | Sep 11, 2006 15:37 |
| Bible Believers and Israel / Islam [498 words] | Major Jeff White | Sep 5, 2006 14:46 |
| ↔ Israel is still the same as in Old Testament: Micah [359 words] | Noha Yousri | Dec 4, 2006 23:53 |
| ↔ The God of Abraham and Free Will [129 words] | Seamus MacNemi | Feb 25, 2007 21:31 |
| ↔ Our dear Noha ... [60 words] | dhimmi no more | Sep 10, 2007 18:59 |
| ↔ A reply to your offense Mr.dhimmi... [78 words] | Noha Yousri | Sep 11, 2007 18:09 |
| ↔ I read this as: and guess what? [22 words] | dhimmi no more | Sep 12, 2007 16:57 |
| ↔ our dear Noha and the debate that is not a debate! Go figure [320 words] | dhimmi no more | Sep 17, 2007 07:11 |
| ↔ Do you believe you have a kidney Mr. dhimmi ? [883 words] | Noha Yousri | Sep 17, 2007 22:37 |
| ↔ Our dear Noha rabina yu3alimuha al-lughat al-3arabiya wa al-kalawi [1564 words] | dhimmi no more | Sep 18, 2007 20:50 |
| ↔ Re: origins [20 words] | Michele Ezell | Sep 26, 2009 19:47 |
| Christian Zionists Down Under. [21 words] | Gail | Sep 5, 2006 00:04 |
| Apocolyptic exegesis [105 words] | Rob | Sep 2, 2006 01:58 |
| Staying in line with beliefs [316 words] | RWCowboy | Sep 2, 2006 00:18 |
| ↔ In Reply To Noha Yousri [45 words] | Seamus MacMemi | Sep 7, 2007 09:03 |
| Its time to know the history of Palestinians [112 words] | Paul Rinderle | Aug 31, 2006 16:06 |
| ↔ Palestine has a shallow history [93 words] | scott brown | Sep 11, 2006 18:18 |
Are the statistics accurate for European Christians too? [w/response] [81 words] | Robert Feiger | Aug 31, 2006 15:37 |
| Recommended Reading Re: Zionist Evangelicals [147 words] | Michael | Aug 31, 2006 11:24 |
| support Israel, not the Bible [326 words] | Lewis Loflin | Aug 31, 2006 10:58 |
Christian Zionists [w/response] [509 words] | Bart Willruth | Aug 31, 2006 10:51 |
| ↔ Verbum Solum Habemous [329 words] | Michael | Sep 1, 2006 02:54 |
| ↔ Christian Zionists follow up [304 words] | Bart Willruth | Sep 1, 2006 08:47 |
| ↔ Christian Zionism according to former theologians [218 words] | Rob | Sep 1, 2006 15:11 |
| ↔ convoluted interpretation [302 words] | Bart Willruth | Sep 1, 2006 16:35 |
| ↔ same old lie [33 words] | p. | Sep 1, 2006 17:16 |
| ↔ Elitist clap-trap [194 words] | Keith R. Snyder | Sep 1, 2006 22:58 |
| ↔ Mizpah ! [141 words] | Michael | Sep 1, 2006 23:24 |
| ↔ Religious Superiority And Arrogance [259 words] | Infidel | Sep 2, 2006 00:10 |
| ↔ Replacement Theology and Bastardization of the Gospel [628 words] | Grateful1 | Sep 2, 2006 06:13 |
| ↔ Calumny most egregious [389 words] | Michael | Sep 2, 2006 12:36 |
| ↔ Pro-Israel "Supercessionist" speaks. [634 words] | Peter J. Herz | Sep 3, 2006 00:10 |
| ↔ CHRISTIAN ZIONISM [292 words] | Bart Willruth | Sep 5, 2006 10:14 |
| ↔ Bart.... [124 words] | donvan | Sep 7, 2006 10:57 |
| ↔ IRRATIONALITY [240 words] | Bart Willruth | Sep 8, 2006 08:44 |
| ↔ To Bart Willruth [152 words] | sara | Sep 12, 2006 08:11 |
| ↔ Bart Willruth [629 words] | sara | Sep 13, 2006 06:14 |
| ↔ SARA'S OFFENSE [550 words] | Bart Willruth | Sep 14, 2006 09:04 |
| ↔ You have the wrong enemy [1091 words] | sara | Sep 15, 2006 08:29 |
| ↔ I AGREE WITH SARA AND MAJOR JEFF WHITE [705 words] | Jobel | Oct 1, 2006 18:55 |
| ↔ Amorphous Faith? [81 words] | Matt R. | Oct 16, 2006 18:22 |
| ↔ I agree [47 words] | Bart Willruth | Oct 23, 2006 13:20 |
| ↔ The New is in the Old Concealed, the Old is in the New Revealed [392 words] | A Christian | Jan 20, 2007 22:08 |
| ↔ What, Really, Is Faith? [627 words] | Seamus MacNemi | Sep 7, 2007 11:31 |
| ↔ The "Curse" Of The Law [450 words] | Seamus MacNemi | Sep 7, 2007 13:21 |
| ↔ what about Micah ??? [71 words] | Noha Yousri | Sep 12, 2007 01:04 |
| ↔ I speak the truth [110 words] | Michael | Sep 12, 2007 21:40 |
| ↔ Reply to Michael [377 words] | Noha Yousri | Sep 14, 2007 11:44 |
| ↔ To Noha Yousri [47 words] | Michael | Sep 15, 2007 10:17 |
| ↔ But our Dear Noha is quoting the Bible! [25 words] | dhimmi no more | Sep 16, 2007 20:12 |
| ↔ Noha Yousri [299 words] | dhimmi no more | Sep 16, 2007 20:26 |
| ↔ But our dear Noha the Qur'an really says that jesus is God [48 words] | dhimmi no more | Sep 16, 2007 20:31 |
| ↔ Speak to God, He is always there for you [125 words] | Noha Yousri | Sep 17, 2007 11:59 |
| ↔ dhimmi : Nothing is for you [45 words] | Noha Yousri | Sep 18, 2007 14:28 |
| ↔ Our dear Noha I read this as: you have no answer [53 words] | dhimmi no more | Sep 18, 2007 21:02 |
| ↔ Israel [459 words] | KP | Sep 15, 2009 13:09 |
| ↔ Israel the Head of Nations [63 words] | KP | Sep 16, 2009 11:51 |
| It's not all fun and games [61 words] | Rob | Aug 30, 2006 07:09 |
| ↔ It's Not Easy Being Me [147 words] | Richard | Aug 31, 2006 20:43 |
| ↔ scripture [145 words] | buffaloacademy | Sep 10, 2006 00:24 |