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and to you Sidda

Reader comment on item: Europeans Fleeing Eurabia
in response to reader comment: Van Gogh:' America is the last beacon of hope in a steadily darkening world'

Submitted by Niels (Spain), Mar 9, 2006 at 11:02

Hi Sidda, I read your response with great interest, thanks again. Your point about the ottoman empire is of course totally correct, but I was hinting on the ottomans in their heyday, before they got eclipsed by other powers and their erstwhile tolerance got severely corrupted by the ugliest kind of nationalism and the genocide this eventually spawned in the last years of the empire´s existence.

There had been massacres before as well, as in Chios ,Bulgaria, and againt the armenians before in the 1880´s..I know, I should have stressed my point, but when they could still afford it ,they where quite tolerant indeed.

I don´t deny the Quran ,if followed literally ,does not incite to the use of violence, but then again I´m against scriptures of any kind ,as I mentioned (I guess the term "infidel" technically does apply to me, my parents chose not to baptize me so I could choose my own creed if I wanted to later on..closest I ever came to religion was actually judaism while I had a relationship with a jewish girl and the question was ,very subtlely, put forward if I would one day be willing to convert). So I really do lack the knowledge to parallel your comments on this( dare I say it ,you know your enemy well..)

" To address a couple of your other points, poverty cannot be used as an excuse for Islamic extremism. If it were only poverty, why do we not see Guatemalans, Haitians, or Hindus from Calcutta waging "jihad"? Why do you see only Muslim suicide bombers in Palestine, and not Christian Palestinians? "

True, non-muslims lack the all-binding framework of islam ,and it´s origins as a militant religion. Sidda, I´m not disagreeing with you about the alledgedly dangerous nature of islam, islamic fundamentalism is our common enemy since it aims to destroy us all, I am trying to find a way OTHER then the (from an american point of view perhaps more obvious ) mentioned way of curbing the current trend! Maybe describing it with shock and awe "aggression" was a bit off the mark, but a clear stand-off doesn´t work either.
And to go through the nationalities you mention, any guatemalan that could be possible "subversive" was probably among the tens of thousands of deaths since the Arbenz overthrow and the halting of covert CIA sponsoring of the military right wing death squads in the 90´s, Haiti is an utterly failed state that has absolutely nothing to offer the world in terms of resources and therefore irrelevant, the Hindus haven´t always been as nice with the Sihks and Indian Muslims (and vice versa), and the Christian palestinians are ,sadly ,on their way to oblivion(as throughout the Middle east). Anyway, this is not the kind of fact busting discussion I aim for, this piece was about the European context, there´s a lot of rotten things in the world nowadays and I´m after solutions to nip the so called "Eurabia" trend in the bud.

The crucial mistake most european governments made is that they expected the immigrant populations to actually WANT to assimilate, and therefore did not make many arrangements to guide them. But, as they could in now way find any cultural resemblance to the native populations, and were mostly herded to ghastly housing projects outside the main cities, a sort of apartheid came into being, part self imposed, part consequence of their status. Now things are going awry, the authorities realize their mistake (as you pointed out correctly, legislature is starting to be enforced).

What to do now? Purely from a european point of view lifting the muslims from their relative poverty will ,hopefully, give them the opportunity to embrace western lifestyle in the version that is more acceptable to them (ie, respecting some of their cultural and religious principles). Is that an impossible scenario? I certainly don´t think so, but a serious effort will have to be made.

The gap between what a young muslim learns in the progressive dutch schools and their parents viewpoints (not uncommonly they are illiterate and without any basic education, and do not master the language adequately) is far too wide and some kids become susceptible to rabid theories, influenced by hatefull texts and theories.

Sidda, I do draw a lot of my viewpoints out of the fact that I actually know many (assimilated) muslims I have a beer with in the cafe around the corner! It does perhaps make me look a bit naive in your view, but I trust personal experience more than I do the media. Come over and I´ll introduce you to them and we´ll discuss further over a pint!

Other interesting point is the actual origin of muslims in european countries, instead of all lumping them on one heap. Most north africans are the 2nd or 3rd generation of "guest workers" that were invited to work when we were short of hands in the 60´s and 70´s. We actually invited them!!! Another big group are Bosnian and Kosovar refugees (mainly in germany and scandinavia) who are in fact quite secular (although their respective conflicts were fought over ethnic lines). In France a huge chunk of muslims are Harqi´s and heir descendants,algerians who fought on the FRENCH side in the war of independence, and therefore had to relocate to france when Algeria received independence to avoid persecution. They are hardly religious, and they account for a huge percentage of the often quoted 5th column of 6 million muslims in France (by the way, Algeria is where many french jews came from as well).
What is true, and where you have a major point ,is that some of the kids radicalize not only because of reasons of poverty.

There is a strong tendency for young muslims to fraternize with their oppressed brethren outside Europe: the palestinians, the egyptian brotherhood, the chechens etc etc..it is an unfortunate effect of globalisation and indeedbrings events outside europe in our midst.

As you realise by now, I am an optimist, I am a young guy so I have to, and the fact that my cellphone was brutally stolen last weekend while I was actually making a call by a punk on a bike who was..yep..muslim does not alter my view in any way (ooh, I´m so enlightened!)

Actually, my neighbour, a lawyer with a nice car, once told me his laptop was stolen from the backseat while he was waiting for a traffic light in Barcelona, by a moroccan..stunned he watched the guy run, actually being cut down by another moroccan a bit further,who had seen it happen and returned the laptop while saying how pissed off he was by the bad image his people had, and apologizing for it. There´s still hope.

Thanks again for your comments,Sidda, i certainly will keep on checking up (although less prolific, do have work to do..) I certainly don´t want to generalize americans´behaviour or mentality in any way, I have met enough americans to know all colours of the spectre are represented in the States, and I´ve never been there myself (although have been in Mexico ,Cuba and canada, damn, how could I have missed it!) so shoudl refrain from any biased comments Europeans are so often quite thrifty with . I actually do appreciate that most Americans, also when having a very different opinion, do show an open mind and knowledgeable arguments to have a healthy discussion!

Best regards

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".


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Title Commenter Date Thread
info [59 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
more infoMar 7, 2015 07:01222165
Forget Newsweek, Check This Out ... [26 words]AlexAug 4, 2014 22:31216520
2Western (or otherwise) freedom is a two way street [251 words]PrashantNov 30, 2012 02:27201066
2emigration continues despite Geert [73 words]y Brandstetter MDJun 20, 2011 06:00186494
French Jews in Quebec? [33 words]Abu NudnikJul 6, 2010 13:02175181
Try more Calgary--Toronto aka Pigtown is venal and worthless! [107 words]DevasahayamJul 6, 2010 19:44175181
The topic was Jews fleeing Europe [84 words]Abu NudnikJul 19, 2010 13:46175181
Ridiculous [292 words]Joel CuerrierAug 3, 2012 10:15175181
Reasonable without the unnecessary insults [51 words]Abu NudnikAug 15, 2012 11:17175181
True [546 words]Joel CuerrierAug 17, 2012 20:06175181
1Another view from the U.S. [958 words]Cassandra (of Troy)Jun 5, 2010 08:38173874
1To Cassandra [556 words]Kepha HorAug 11, 2014 14:36173874
New Zealand not an option [109 words]TommoJan 14, 2009 19:11148056
1New Zealand secular, Australia not so much [127 words]Marwan JumaMar 16, 2010 18:53148056
1Come on over! [123 words]RockmelonJan 14, 2009 15:25148036
wake up [21 words]awakeJun 19, 2011 20:50148036
1Well aware of the Muslim President [387 words]RockmelonJul 5, 2011 23:18148036
Eurabia, The global insurgency has begun. The resistance is watching. [13 words]Michel du FerDec 29, 2008 16:18146176
It's a small world [168 words]RockyMay 26, 2008 23:59130120
soft [12 words]lukeMay 26, 2008 19:28130074
Unfortunately, some have "fled" to the US [23 words]DevasahayamMay 27, 2008 15:05130074
1Unfortunately, the British are coming to Canada too [98 words]Canadian Republican ( very rare species)Jun 1, 2008 08:23130074
And Canada has even worse INTERNALS [114 words]DevasahayamJun 2, 2008 09:13130074
Bouchard and his Parliamentary snub [272 words]Abu NudnikJul 6, 2010 13:23130074
2allow in Jews, not islamists who hate us. [36 words]Phil GreendApr 27, 2008 22:57127003
Welcome friends, not enemies [75 words]ChrisJan 12, 2009 15:48127003
Wrong Analysis [264 words]ghlobeApr 22, 2008 22:26126532
LAND OF OPPORTUNITY? [1001 words]DANIEL REDMONDApr 24, 2008 22:05126532
Leaving Eurabia or Eurocracy? [998 words]DéMillicanKunAhThalaiMay 10, 2008 11:24126532
Immigration in Sweden: The numbers and nothing but the numbers [335 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
pongApr 22, 2008 16:32126499
Tried to read their Lundgren article [42 words]YnnatchkahApr 22, 2008 12:39126486
Ynnatchkah: statistics [255 words]pongApr 22, 2008 17:58126486
I've found the exact numbers now! [63 words]pongApr 22, 2008 18:29126486
And where did they come from ? [124 words]pongApr 22, 2008 19:26126486
1Muslim migration to western countries [116 words]sejudeMar 15, 2012 06:48126486
1ANY WORD ON FINLAND? [121 words]DANIEL REDMONDMar 15, 2008 10:07122710
poor Finland [39 words]JMar 25, 2008 14:39122710
1sorry to disappoint you . . . [107 words]Rebecca MouldsApr 22, 2008 22:16122710
1The Word on Finland [109 words]Straight_Talk_LuigiApr 22, 2008 22:45122710
1response to Rebecca Moulds [213 words]DANIEL REDMONDApr 23, 2008 19:31122710
2Amazing Finns [122 words]finnamericangirlApr 29, 2008 20:10122710
1REPLY TO 'FINNAMERICANGIRL' [118 words]DANIEL REDMONDMay 5, 2008 22:10122710
1Cultures of the North [278 words]Straight_Talk_LuigiMay 30, 2008 01:55122710
2Rabid dogs !!! [347 words]dfwhite19438Mar 14, 2008 17:27122657
2serves Europe right [73 words]Yuval Brandstetter MDMay 31, 2007 18:1495580
1Democracy [35 words]SarahJun 12, 2010 20:2195580
1Finally someone is waking up. Welcome to America [72 words]George AustinApr 12, 2007 21:2889098
Isn't it a bit lemmingish at this point for Jews to be emigrating to Israel? [150 words]traehApr 7, 2007 03:2688773
2Isreal Is Surrounded By Bees, But Will Survive [35 words]AnneMApr 12, 2007 06:4688773
taking over [17 words]eurabiaMar 18, 2008 11:4388773
2Possible mass flight from Europe? [118 words]MelMMar 17, 2007 20:5486665
1RE: EUROPEANS FLEEING EURABIA [70 words]DANIEL REDMONDMar 17, 2008 19:1486665
1Oh please come !!! [206 words]dfwhite19438Mar 14, 2007 16:4786306
Well said. [1 words]RichardApr 9, 2007 16:2286306
Leaving Europe [429 words]BenSep 23, 2006 14:4757200
Masterly [237 words]TerryMar 18, 2007 19:0257200
well said [135 words]LindaFeb 13, 2008 01:1557200
1RE: TERRY'S COMMENTS ON BRITAIN [407 words]DANIEL REDMONDMar 19, 2008 03:4157200
REALITY OF THE SITUATION [249 words]The Real OneJul 15, 2006 03:4949718
Catalysts of immigration [142 words]Man of the WestAug 2, 2006 16:1349718
USA the beacon of hope for many [327 words]The Real OneAug 31, 2006 19:1449718
Beacon of Hope [161 words]Man of the WestSep 1, 2006 16:1649718
What countries are people moving to? [15 words]PeterJun 6, 2007 12:5649718
2REPLY TO 'THE REAL ONE' [327 words]DANIEL REDMONDMar 15, 2008 09:5449718
2Dutch cowardice reaches the lowest of lows... [114 words]Unrepentent TexanJul 14, 2006 11:4249651
1Wrong attitude [157 words]Man of the WestAug 2, 2006 16:2449651
1I can't agree [147 words]Mary ConnorMar 22, 2007 08:2249651
1don't judge all in the same manner. [598 words]martMar 30, 2008 21:4449651
2So fight back already [182 words]Unrepentant TexanApr 8, 2008 10:4049651
2When will Europe "wake up"? (rhetorical question) [155 words]RealistSep 16, 2008 16:3149651
european emigration [227 words]NielsJul 14, 2006 11:4149650
European Left - La Trahison des clercs [212 words]VijayJul 12, 2006 13:2549510
Don't forget the crazy support for the bloody Khmers Rouges by European 'intellectuals'. [76 words]methlenAug 15, 2006 02:1349510
to vijay [8 words]Kepha HorAug 11, 2014 15:0249510
2Europe at a crossroads [211 words]DarrenJul 11, 2006 14:1749408
1Fleeing Europe [70 words]Man of the WestJul 12, 2006 15:4949408
1Stand up [46 words]Concerned AmericanNov 21, 2006 17:2049408
1Ponder.... [56 words]GalwayJan 26, 2007 12:4049408
You are right [5 words]TerryMar 18, 2007 19:2649408
2EuroIDIOTS [80 words]menodhimmiSep 10, 2010 18:0049408
How Will Europe Survive? [18 words]AlexJul 10, 2006 23:1249354
to Alex: How will Europe survive [114 words]Anubhav SinghAug 3, 2006 03:0049354
Coming Apart! [8 words]GalwayJan 24, 2007 12:5449354
Make it harder for Militant Islam [31 words]Octavio JohansonMar 10, 2006 19:2339680
Eurabia is a giant Kossovo [126 words]Octavio JohansonMar 10, 2006 10:0339624
What then [71 words]TerryMar 18, 2007 19:2239624
Neils, Saladin- You are part of the problem [45 words]Octavio JohansonMar 10, 2006 06:0139606
To Octavio [356 words]NielsMar 15, 2006 11:4139606
If at first you don't succeed....deny, deny, again. [127 words]joeJul 11, 2006 15:4839606
Sorry [48 words]TerryMar 18, 2007 19:3239606
Nazi and Soviet Comparison [121 words]SaladinMar 8, 2006 09:3639363
The European press [39 words]Octavio JohansonMar 9, 2006 16:5839363
Van Gogh:' America is the last beacon of hope in a steadily darkening world' [94 words]Ben van de PolderMar 6, 2006 22:5439125
Dutch mistakes and the Van Gogh tragedy [84 words]Octavio JohansonMar 7, 2006 03:3639125
Dutch mistakes? [561 words]NielsMar 7, 2006 14:1439125
Countries willing to fight back??? [113 words]SaladinMar 7, 2006 15:0639125
Saladin, Nazis and Soviets [79 words]Octavio JohansonMar 7, 2006 17:0739125
to Niels [553 words]SiddaMar 7, 2006 19:3239125
to Sidda [748 words]NielsMar 8, 2006 07:1539125
Europeans Fleeing "Eurabia" [179 words]SaladinMar 8, 2006 12:0839125
1back at you, Niels [1386 words]SiddaMar 8, 2006 18:3339125
Neils [140 words]Octavio JohansonMar 9, 2006 10:3239125
and to you Sidda [1231 words]NielsMar 9, 2006 11:0239125
A thoughtful answer to Neil [235 words]Octavio JohansonMar 9, 2006 11:0739125
To saladin [891 words]nielsMar 9, 2006 12:0339125
to Niels and Sidda [23 words]M. al-ContentMar 9, 2006 17:1139125
It is not about the USA [194 words]Octavio JohansonMar 9, 2006 17:1739125
List of Dutch mistakes [20 words]Octavio JohansonMar 10, 2006 06:1839125
Europeans Fleeing "Eurabia"- Octavio [488 words]SaladinMar 10, 2006 22:4639125
Europe will be conquered by muslims, trust it! [207 words]Muhammad AriefJul 12, 2006 10:4639125
Arief [282 words]LisaAug 6, 2006 23:3439125
Thank u Lisa Dear [100 words]RiseDec 12, 2006 06:5439125
Muhammad Arief - Sir [475 words]LisaDec 12, 2006 17:4039125
3Why are Europeans so Wimpy? [124 words]DebraTApr 11, 2007 15:0939125
mongol hordes [578 words]onlineMar 30, 2008 22:3439125
TO THE JEWS OF EUROPE, WELCOME [84 words]DONVANMar 6, 2006 15:3939085
1You throw out peaceful Jews, you invite in Moslems who believe they should destroy you! Smart !! [92 words]farahJul 13, 2006 18:4639085
I agree, Welcome to America! [9 words]KeliMar 13, 2007 08:1339085
1Islam and Europe [368 words]David SternlightMar 30, 2007 03:3239085

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Mark my comment as a response to and to you Sidda by Niels

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Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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