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back at you, Niels

Reader comment on item: Europeans Fleeing Eurabia
in response to reader comment: Van Gogh:' America is the last beacon of hope in a steadily darkening world'

Submitted by Sidda (United States), Mar 8, 2006 at 18:33

Niels, thank you for your articulate response. I'd like to make a couple of things clear from the very start. First, don't think that most Americans' immediate response to a threat is to light the torch and grab the pitchfork! True, some are like that, but not the vast majority of us! However, we do seem to be, in general, more comfortable with the use of military force when we feel all other options have been exhausted. Second, I in no way meant to imply that you should respond with indiscriminate "aggression" against Muslims. I'm sorry if anything in my post gave you that impression. Now, to move onto my other points.....

As to the "tolerance" of the Ottomon empire, I am quite sure that the Armenians would disagree with you. Not trying to be condescending here, but you should do a little more research on the Ottomon empire. That, along with reading the Quran and Hadiths and Suras should no doubt keep you very busy ;-). Let me explain something to you about Turkey just very briefly. The reason that Turkey was able to have a democracy was because Kemal Attaturk severely surpressed the practice of Islam. Islamic fundamentalists are gaining more and more influence in Turkey today.

For sure many terrible injustices and atrocities were committed in the name of Christianity; however, there was absolutely NO basis for these terrible acts in the Bible. You will find, though, if you read the Quran and corresponding texts that the jihadists are, in fact, following the teachings of Mohammed. You must realize that the more peaceful Meccan verses were quoted at a time when Mohammed was just beginning his "ministry." He was weak at that point and so his messages to the various tribes he sought to convert were conciliatory. That changed as he conquered more and more people until the later verses, called the Medina verses, became very violent. The more peaceful Meccan verses were ABROGATED by the later violent Medina ones.

And yes I do leave room for the possiblity that some imams, for their own purposes, choose to emphasize the most violent verses. For the extremist, the definition of "innocent" is very elastic. For instance, just resisting the spread of Islam could be defined as "aggression towards Islam" by them. They believe that there can be no true peace until Islam covers the world.

To address a couple of your other points, poverty cannot be used as an excuse for Islamic extremism. If it were only poverty, why do we not see Guatemalans, Haitians, or Hindus from Calcutta waging "jihad"? Why do you see only Muslim suicide bombers in Palestine, and not Christian Palestinians?

Surely it is not only Muslims as a group in Europe who have experienced poverty or some feelings of alienation. The 19 hijackers on 9/11 were all from wealthy or upper middle class families. Bin Laden is a multi-millionaire and his deputy Ayman al Zawahiri is a doctor (actually a pediatrician!). No, there is more to this than poverty and a lack of opportunities--it's the doctrine of "jihad." Again, though, I agree that poverty and frustration can make young people more vulnerable to recruiting by radicals.

There are several different facets to this jihad. One is the obvious violent jihad that we see in the way of the first bombing of the WTC in 1993, our embassies in Africa, the Cole, 9/11, Madrid, London, Bali, etc. But, the other is even more insidious. It is the "soft" jihad. Unfettered Muslim immigration into "infidel" lands. When they become a significant minority, they begin demanding more and more concessions from the infidels, all the time using the infidel's "tolerance" and "multiculturalism" to their (Muslim) benefit. When they gain the majority, they will institute Sharia law. We have a group in the U.S. who poses as a Muslim civil rights group (Council on American Islamic Relations - CAIR) who have stated as their goal to have Sharia law in America and the flag of Islam to fly on the White House. This is not some fringe whacked out group, it is a mainstream Muslim advocacy group.

Now that we have identified the problem, what is the solution? I don't claim to be an expert, but I know from all my research that this war against radical Islam must be fought on several different fronts. The military front is only one front. One thing we are trying to do right now is to deny the extremists any safe haven (country or territory) from where they can operate with impunity such as they did in Afghanistan under Taliban rule. That was the strategy behind our invasion of Iraq; to try to get a stable democracy, friendly to the West, in between two terrorist states, Syria and Iran. Whether that strategy will work is still up in the air.

As a practical solution to Europe's militant Islamic problem I would make the following suggestion. First, I would limit the amount of Muslim immigration now until you can better assimilate the ones already in your country. It does nobody any good to continue to accept people in who have no chance of jobs, and whose chances of becoming full-functioning members of your society is greatly diminished from the start. I believe Holland is now taking steps towards the goal of successful integration (learning Dutch, respecting Dutch language and tradition).

In your original post, you mentioned Holland's tradition of multiculturalism. Well, Niels, multiculturalism only works when the core values of the people immigrating into the host country are not diametrically opposed to those of the host country. You cannot be tolerant to the intolerant. Do you understand? There are some values that are non-negotiable in the West. I am sure you know what they are. You cannot allow those core values to be eroded under the guise of "tolerance." Because what will happen is that you will "tolerate" yourselves right out of existence. When you tolerate those who are intolerant, they will eventually use those freedoms against you and when they gain enough power, there will be no tolerance for YOU and YOUR way of life anymore. So, do not be intimidated with cries of "racism" (hint: Islam is NOT a race), or "discrimination" or "intolerance" when you need to make or keep rules that will keep Holland as a Western country with its Western values.

You must strengthen and support the moderate Muslims who come forward. Doing this requires doing what I mentioned in the last paragraph. When you give into fundamentalist Muslims' demands, you are weakening the position of reform-minded Muslims, Muslims who truly just want to live in the 21st century and not follow 7th century edicts. But, on the other hand, do not be fooled by those claiming to be "moderate" Muslims who are really wolves in sheep's clothing. A true moderate does not want Sharia law imposed, they do not believe in the supremacy of Islam over all other beliefs, they do not believe that Islam should "dominate and not be dominated" or that jihad (violent or soft) should be carried out until Islam "covers the world and all non believers are either converted or subjugated," they do not divide the world into Dar al Harb (land of war) and Dar al Islam (land of believers).

It is great that you have had such an opportunity to travel. It is true that we Americans find it harder to "get around." I think that has a lot to do with the fact that we have huge oceans surrounding us and it's a lot harder to get to other places. Although, I DO enjoy my visits to Canada!

I can relate to your concerns for any future children you may have. It was my concern for the future of MY young children which prompted me to seek knowledge and learn as much as I could.

Please do continue to read here as well as post. If you take a little time and read some of the posts, you will find there is a real diversity of opinion. It would be rather boring if everyone agreed with everyone else all the time. The free exchange of ideas is a good thing. There are many who post here who are quite articulate and informed and I have learned much from them.

Best regards

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".


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Reader comments (120) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
info [59 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
more infoMar 7, 2015 07:01222165
Forget Newsweek, Check This Out ... [26 words]AlexAug 4, 2014 22:31216520
2Western (or otherwise) freedom is a two way street [251 words]PrashantNov 30, 2012 02:27201066
2emigration continues despite Geert [73 words]y Brandstetter MDJun 20, 2011 06:00186494
French Jews in Quebec? [33 words]Abu NudnikJul 6, 2010 13:02175181
Try more Calgary--Toronto aka Pigtown is venal and worthless! [107 words]DevasahayamJul 6, 2010 19:44175181
The topic was Jews fleeing Europe [84 words]Abu NudnikJul 19, 2010 13:46175181
Ridiculous [292 words]Joel CuerrierAug 3, 2012 10:15175181
Reasonable without the unnecessary insults [51 words]Abu NudnikAug 15, 2012 11:17175181
True [546 words]Joel CuerrierAug 17, 2012 20:06175181
1Another view from the U.S. [958 words]Cassandra (of Troy)Jun 5, 2010 08:38173874
1To Cassandra [556 words]Kepha HorAug 11, 2014 14:36173874
New Zealand not an option [109 words]TommoJan 14, 2009 19:11148056
1New Zealand secular, Australia not so much [127 words]Marwan JumaMar 16, 2010 18:53148056
1Come on over! [123 words]RockmelonJan 14, 2009 15:25148036
wake up [21 words]awakeJun 19, 2011 20:50148036
1Well aware of the Muslim President [387 words]RockmelonJul 5, 2011 23:18148036
Eurabia, The global insurgency has begun. The resistance is watching. [13 words]Michel du FerDec 29, 2008 16:18146176
It's a small world [168 words]RockyMay 26, 2008 23:59130120
soft [12 words]lukeMay 26, 2008 19:28130074
Unfortunately, some have "fled" to the US [23 words]DevasahayamMay 27, 2008 15:05130074
1Unfortunately, the British are coming to Canada too [98 words]Canadian Republican ( very rare species)Jun 1, 2008 08:23130074
And Canada has even worse INTERNALS [114 words]DevasahayamJun 2, 2008 09:13130074
Bouchard and his Parliamentary snub [272 words]Abu NudnikJul 6, 2010 13:23130074
2allow in Jews, not islamists who hate us. [36 words]Phil GreendApr 27, 2008 22:57127003
Welcome friends, not enemies [75 words]ChrisJan 12, 2009 15:48127003
Wrong Analysis [264 words]ghlobeApr 22, 2008 22:26126532
LAND OF OPPORTUNITY? [1001 words]DANIEL REDMONDApr 24, 2008 22:05126532
Leaving Eurabia or Eurocracy? [998 words]DéMillicanKunAhThalaiMay 10, 2008 11:24126532
Immigration in Sweden: The numbers and nothing but the numbers [335 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
pongApr 22, 2008 16:32126499
Tried to read their Lundgren article [42 words]YnnatchkahApr 22, 2008 12:39126486
Ynnatchkah: statistics [255 words]pongApr 22, 2008 17:58126486
I've found the exact numbers now! [63 words]pongApr 22, 2008 18:29126486
And where did they come from ? [124 words]pongApr 22, 2008 19:26126486
1Muslim migration to western countries [116 words]sejudeMar 15, 2012 06:48126486
1ANY WORD ON FINLAND? [121 words]DANIEL REDMONDMar 15, 2008 10:07122710
poor Finland [39 words]JMar 25, 2008 14:39122710
1sorry to disappoint you . . . [107 words]Rebecca MouldsApr 22, 2008 22:16122710
1The Word on Finland [109 words]Straight_Talk_LuigiApr 22, 2008 22:45122710
1response to Rebecca Moulds [213 words]DANIEL REDMONDApr 23, 2008 19:31122710
2Amazing Finns [122 words]finnamericangirlApr 29, 2008 20:10122710
1REPLY TO 'FINNAMERICANGIRL' [118 words]DANIEL REDMONDMay 5, 2008 22:10122710
1Cultures of the North [278 words]Straight_Talk_LuigiMay 30, 2008 01:55122710
2Rabid dogs !!! [347 words]dfwhite19438Mar 14, 2008 17:27122657
2serves Europe right [73 words]Yuval Brandstetter MDMay 31, 2007 18:1495580
1Democracy [35 words]SarahJun 12, 2010 20:2195580
1Finally someone is waking up. Welcome to America [72 words]George AustinApr 12, 2007 21:2889098
Isn't it a bit lemmingish at this point for Jews to be emigrating to Israel? [150 words]traehApr 7, 2007 03:2688773
2Isreal Is Surrounded By Bees, But Will Survive [35 words]AnneMApr 12, 2007 06:4688773
taking over [17 words]eurabiaMar 18, 2008 11:4388773
2Possible mass flight from Europe? [118 words]MelMMar 17, 2007 20:5486665
1RE: EUROPEANS FLEEING EURABIA [70 words]DANIEL REDMONDMar 17, 2008 19:1486665
1Oh please come !!! [206 words]dfwhite19438Mar 14, 2007 16:4786306
Well said. [1 words]RichardApr 9, 2007 16:2286306
Leaving Europe [429 words]BenSep 23, 2006 14:4757200
Masterly [237 words]TerryMar 18, 2007 19:0257200
well said [135 words]LindaFeb 13, 2008 01:1557200
1RE: TERRY'S COMMENTS ON BRITAIN [407 words]DANIEL REDMONDMar 19, 2008 03:4157200
REALITY OF THE SITUATION [249 words]The Real OneJul 15, 2006 03:4949718
Catalysts of immigration [142 words]Man of the WestAug 2, 2006 16:1349718
USA the beacon of hope for many [327 words]The Real OneAug 31, 2006 19:1449718
Beacon of Hope [161 words]Man of the WestSep 1, 2006 16:1649718
What countries are people moving to? [15 words]PeterJun 6, 2007 12:5649718
2REPLY TO 'THE REAL ONE' [327 words]DANIEL REDMONDMar 15, 2008 09:5449718
2Dutch cowardice reaches the lowest of lows... [114 words]Unrepentent TexanJul 14, 2006 11:4249651
1Wrong attitude [157 words]Man of the WestAug 2, 2006 16:2449651
1I can't agree [147 words]Mary ConnorMar 22, 2007 08:2249651
1don't judge all in the same manner. [598 words]martMar 30, 2008 21:4449651
2So fight back already [182 words]Unrepentant TexanApr 8, 2008 10:4049651
2When will Europe "wake up"? (rhetorical question) [155 words]RealistSep 16, 2008 16:3149651
european emigration [227 words]NielsJul 14, 2006 11:4149650
European Left - La Trahison des clercs [212 words]VijayJul 12, 2006 13:2549510
Don't forget the crazy support for the bloody Khmers Rouges by European 'intellectuals'. [76 words]methlenAug 15, 2006 02:1349510
to vijay [8 words]Kepha HorAug 11, 2014 15:0249510
2Europe at a crossroads [211 words]DarrenJul 11, 2006 14:1749408
1Fleeing Europe [70 words]Man of the WestJul 12, 2006 15:4949408
1Stand up [46 words]Concerned AmericanNov 21, 2006 17:2049408
1Ponder.... [56 words]GalwayJan 26, 2007 12:4049408
You are right [5 words]TerryMar 18, 2007 19:2649408
2EuroIDIOTS [80 words]menodhimmiSep 10, 2010 18:0049408
How Will Europe Survive? [18 words]AlexJul 10, 2006 23:1249354
to Alex: How will Europe survive [114 words]Anubhav SinghAug 3, 2006 03:0049354
Coming Apart! [8 words]GalwayJan 24, 2007 12:5449354
Make it harder for Militant Islam [31 words]Octavio JohansonMar 10, 2006 19:2339680
Eurabia is a giant Kossovo [126 words]Octavio JohansonMar 10, 2006 10:0339624
What then [71 words]TerryMar 18, 2007 19:2239624
Neils, Saladin- You are part of the problem [45 words]Octavio JohansonMar 10, 2006 06:0139606
To Octavio [356 words]NielsMar 15, 2006 11:4139606
If at first you don't succeed....deny, deny, again. [127 words]joeJul 11, 2006 15:4839606
Sorry [48 words]TerryMar 18, 2007 19:3239606
Nazi and Soviet Comparison [121 words]SaladinMar 8, 2006 09:3639363
The European press [39 words]Octavio JohansonMar 9, 2006 16:5839363
Van Gogh:' America is the last beacon of hope in a steadily darkening world' [94 words]Ben van de PolderMar 6, 2006 22:5439125
Dutch mistakes and the Van Gogh tragedy [84 words]Octavio JohansonMar 7, 2006 03:3639125
Dutch mistakes? [561 words]NielsMar 7, 2006 14:1439125
Countries willing to fight back??? [113 words]SaladinMar 7, 2006 15:0639125
Saladin, Nazis and Soviets [79 words]Octavio JohansonMar 7, 2006 17:0739125
to Niels [553 words]SiddaMar 7, 2006 19:3239125
to Sidda [748 words]NielsMar 8, 2006 07:1539125
Europeans Fleeing "Eurabia" [179 words]SaladinMar 8, 2006 12:0839125
1back at you, Niels [1386 words]SiddaMar 8, 2006 18:3339125
Neils [140 words]Octavio JohansonMar 9, 2006 10:3239125
and to you Sidda [1231 words]NielsMar 9, 2006 11:0239125
A thoughtful answer to Neil [235 words]Octavio JohansonMar 9, 2006 11:0739125
To saladin [891 words]nielsMar 9, 2006 12:0339125
to Niels and Sidda [23 words]M. al-ContentMar 9, 2006 17:1139125
It is not about the USA [194 words]Octavio JohansonMar 9, 2006 17:1739125
List of Dutch mistakes [20 words]Octavio JohansonMar 10, 2006 06:1839125
Europeans Fleeing "Eurabia"- Octavio [488 words]SaladinMar 10, 2006 22:4639125
Europe will be conquered by muslims, trust it! [207 words]Muhammad AriefJul 12, 2006 10:4639125
Arief [282 words]LisaAug 6, 2006 23:3439125
Thank u Lisa Dear [100 words]RiseDec 12, 2006 06:5439125
Muhammad Arief - Sir [475 words]LisaDec 12, 2006 17:4039125
3Why are Europeans so Wimpy? [124 words]DebraTApr 11, 2007 15:0939125
mongol hordes [578 words]onlineMar 30, 2008 22:3439125
TO THE JEWS OF EUROPE, WELCOME [84 words]DONVANMar 6, 2006 15:3939085
1You throw out peaceful Jews, you invite in Moslems who believe they should destroy you! Smart !! [92 words]farahJul 13, 2006 18:4639085
I agree, Welcome to America! [9 words]KeliMar 13, 2007 08:1339085
1Islam and Europe [368 words]David SternlightMar 30, 2007 03:3239085

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Mark my comment as a response to back at you, Niels by Sidda

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Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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