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Leaving Eurabia or Eurocracy?

Reader comment on item: Europeans Fleeing Eurabia
in response to reader comment: Wrong Analysis

Submitted by DéMillicanKunAhThalai (Netherlands), May 10, 2008 at 11:24

After reading the comments on the article 'Europeans Fleeing Eurabia' I was quite stricken by the fact that some of the comments portray Europe - and especially the Netherlands, France and Britain - as being in some kind of a civil war with their Muslim minorities and people fleeing for anti-western violence. I feel this could be true in some way, but still, I have to nuance this.

1): European countries, and especially the Netherlands, are by far not as unsafe as most other countries in the world, among which Russia, the United States and even Australia. In the 2000's the murder rate in the Netherlands was an annual 0.97 each 100,000 inhabitants (slightly higher in 2000 than in later years - source: CBS, 2006). In the USA the murder-rate was 5.59 each 100,000 inhabitants, with a disturbing peak of 7.7 in 2004 (source: Crime in the USA, FBI, 2006).

According to a specialist whom I met, a typical Dutch house is visited by burglars (mostly non-violent professional thieves working in specialized gangs) once every 20 years, and in most cases only the stereo or the laptop is stolen. Perhaps it is so that the European style 'leftist' or 'communist' welfare-state, including the ban on privately owned weapons, do have a positive effect on public order, simply because the poor has more to lose and because it is more difficult to obtain a fire-arm. So why in some of the comments 'our' Dutch and European 'leftist' welfare-state is blamed for the terrible (?) Muslim-thread we are in, I still do not know...

2): An important problem is the fact that housing in the Netherlands is extremely expensive, with average in most regions more than € 200,000.- for a 2 room house, or rents of more than € 500,- a month for nothing more than student rooms in towns such as Amsterdam and Utrecht. (Average annual wage in the Netherlands € 30,975.- gross a year, which mean a net wage of € 19,116.- Source: CPB, 2008). So prizes on housing are an important reason to move to a certain region or country. In the comments many words were said about high educated Dutch leaving the country en masse.

But one must realize that the statistics include the majority of the ca 30,000 domestic Dutch emigrants (on a population of more than 16 million!!!) move to towns just over the Dutch border where houses are significantly cheaper, but from where they are still able commute to their jobs back in the Netherlands. So many of the higher educated emigrants are only leaving the country, and not the countries economy, and they just leave for economic reasons. I do not know much about immigration in other EU countries, but things may be similar in some cases. So the exodus of Europeans from 'Eurabia' may not be as drastic as it seem from the statistics.

3): Western Europe is just recovering from a minor economic downfall lasting from 2001 till 2006, at least in the Netherlands (but also in Germany) leading to a significant shortage of jobs for the high educated. Many young professionals and high educated people were forced to work in factories, or even to live on the dole. Some of those may have decided to try their luck in 'paradise country' Australia of in fast growing economies such as Ireland...

4): One must take into account that Europe, and more specifically the Netherlands, do suffer from a suffocating bureaucracy which may be larger - and more expensive - than a healthy social-democratic society should have. Whether the European bureaucracy is worse than those in other welfare nations such as Canada and Australia, I do not know. But the fact that bureaucracy is considered a problem in the Netherlands is something I do know, since – for example – the unemployed do have to wait months or years for an answer on their requests for participation in re-integration programs, since infrastructure projects necessary for solving important congestion problems are halted more than decades because of paperwork, and since I will be prosecuted when I use sunflower-oil as car fuel (according to law this is an act of bypassing the tax on gasoline, which partly is used for reducing the emission of CO2 from fossil fuels!!!).

Of course the many laws and regulations also hinders the police in doing their job; so violence caused by non-humans like hooligans, skinheads and also rebel immigrants may pose a thread. But high educated Europeans rarely live in neighborhoods or villages where the lack of social security is a problem. Rising taxes, worsening traffic problems, the lack of good education, the dream of starting your own business, and more exiting job opportunities abroad, all could be important reasons for leaving the country. So, mustn't we conclude that the 'high' numbers of well educated Dutch emigrants is due to the consequences of Dutch bureaucracy in general rather than due to Muslim related violence?

So, we may say that the present and future effects of the Muslim incursion on European life is mostly hypothetical, and that the problems with migrant youth in some towns like Amsterdam is not even compatible with the terror delivered by gangs in towns like Los Angeles (...lets say: the Cribs and the Bloods). At least many of the few Dutch and other Europeans who actually do emigrate may possibly have different reasons to leave than anti-western violence.

Of course this won't change the fact that the European civilization, after decades of pure growth and even some unification, seem not to be able to adjust their society and welfare state to the complexity of 21st century world. Such a civilization may easily collapse by the hands of those part of a different – more vital – culture and tradition. The Muslim minority in Western Europe may be the present day equivalents of the Germanic tribes in the ancient Western Roman Empire; also they started their careers as immigrants, fleeing from poverty and bloodshed.


Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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Reader comments (120) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
info [59 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
more infoMar 7, 2015 07:01222165
Forget Newsweek, Check This Out ... [26 words]AlexAug 4, 2014 22:31216520
2Western (or otherwise) freedom is a two way street [251 words]PrashantNov 30, 2012 02:27201066
2emigration continues despite Geert [73 words]y Brandstetter MDJun 20, 2011 06:00186494
French Jews in Quebec? [33 words]Abu NudnikJul 6, 2010 13:02175181
Try more Calgary--Toronto aka Pigtown is venal and worthless! [107 words]DevasahayamJul 6, 2010 19:44175181
The topic was Jews fleeing Europe [84 words]Abu NudnikJul 19, 2010 13:46175181
Ridiculous [292 words]Joel CuerrierAug 3, 2012 10:15175181
Reasonable without the unnecessary insults [51 words]Abu NudnikAug 15, 2012 11:17175181
True [546 words]Joel CuerrierAug 17, 2012 20:06175181
1Another view from the U.S. [958 words]Cassandra (of Troy)Jun 5, 2010 08:38173874
1To Cassandra [556 words]Kepha HorAug 11, 2014 14:36173874
New Zealand not an option [109 words]TommoJan 14, 2009 19:11148056
1New Zealand secular, Australia not so much [127 words]Marwan JumaMar 16, 2010 18:53148056
1Come on over! [123 words]RockmelonJan 14, 2009 15:25148036
wake up [21 words]awakeJun 19, 2011 20:50148036
1Well aware of the Muslim President [387 words]RockmelonJul 5, 2011 23:18148036
Eurabia, The global insurgency has begun. The resistance is watching. [13 words]Michel du FerDec 29, 2008 16:18146176
It's a small world [168 words]RockyMay 26, 2008 23:59130120
soft [12 words]lukeMay 26, 2008 19:28130074
Unfortunately, some have "fled" to the US [23 words]DevasahayamMay 27, 2008 15:05130074
1Unfortunately, the British are coming to Canada too [98 words]Canadian Republican ( very rare species)Jun 1, 2008 08:23130074
And Canada has even worse INTERNALS [114 words]DevasahayamJun 2, 2008 09:13130074
Bouchard and his Parliamentary snub [272 words]Abu NudnikJul 6, 2010 13:23130074
2allow in Jews, not islamists who hate us. [36 words]Phil GreendApr 27, 2008 22:57127003
Welcome friends, not enemies [75 words]ChrisJan 12, 2009 15:48127003
Wrong Analysis [264 words]ghlobeApr 22, 2008 22:26126532
LAND OF OPPORTUNITY? [1001 words]DANIEL REDMONDApr 24, 2008 22:05126532
Leaving Eurabia or Eurocracy? [998 words]DéMillicanKunAhThalaiMay 10, 2008 11:24126532
Immigration in Sweden: The numbers and nothing but the numbers [335 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
pongApr 22, 2008 16:32126499
Tried to read their Lundgren article [42 words]YnnatchkahApr 22, 2008 12:39126486
Ynnatchkah: statistics [255 words]pongApr 22, 2008 17:58126486
I've found the exact numbers now! [63 words]pongApr 22, 2008 18:29126486
And where did they come from ? [124 words]pongApr 22, 2008 19:26126486
1Muslim migration to western countries [116 words]sejudeMar 15, 2012 06:48126486
1ANY WORD ON FINLAND? [121 words]DANIEL REDMONDMar 15, 2008 10:07122710
poor Finland [39 words]JMar 25, 2008 14:39122710
5JUMPING THE SINKING SHIP OF EUROPE [242 words]DANIEL REDMONDMar 25, 2008 20:06122710
1sorry to disappoint you . . . [107 words]Rebecca MouldsApr 22, 2008 22:16122710
1The Word on Finland [109 words]Straight_Talk_LuigiApr 22, 2008 22:45122710
1response to Rebecca Moulds [213 words]DANIEL REDMONDApr 23, 2008 19:31122710
2Amazing Finns [122 words]finnamericangirlApr 29, 2008 20:10122710
1REPLY TO 'FINNAMERICANGIRL' [118 words]DANIEL REDMONDMay 5, 2008 22:10122710
1Cultures of the North [278 words]Straight_Talk_LuigiMay 30, 2008 01:55122710
2Rabid dogs !!! [347 words]dfwhite19438Mar 14, 2008 17:27122657
2serves Europe right [73 words]Yuval Brandstetter MDMay 31, 2007 18:1495580
1Democracy [35 words]SarahJun 12, 2010 20:2195580
1Finally someone is waking up. Welcome to America [72 words]George AustinApr 12, 2007 21:2889098
Isn't it a bit lemmingish at this point for Jews to be emigrating to Israel? [150 words]traehApr 7, 2007 03:2688773
2Isreal Is Surrounded By Bees, But Will Survive [35 words]AnneMApr 12, 2007 06:4688773
taking over [17 words]eurabiaMar 18, 2008 11:4388773
2Possible mass flight from Europe? [118 words]MelMMar 17, 2007 20:5486665
1RE: EUROPEANS FLEEING EURABIA [70 words]DANIEL REDMONDMar 17, 2008 19:1486665
1Oh please come !!! [206 words]dfwhite19438Mar 14, 2007 16:4786306
Well said. [1 words]RichardApr 9, 2007 16:2286306
Leaving Europe [429 words]BenSep 23, 2006 14:4757200
Masterly [237 words]TerryMar 18, 2007 19:0257200
well said [135 words]LindaFeb 13, 2008 01:1557200
1RE: TERRY'S COMMENTS ON BRITAIN [407 words]DANIEL REDMONDMar 19, 2008 03:4157200
REALITY OF THE SITUATION [249 words]The Real OneJul 15, 2006 03:4949718
Catalysts of immigration [142 words]Man of the WestAug 2, 2006 16:1349718
USA the beacon of hope for many [327 words]The Real OneAug 31, 2006 19:1449718
Beacon of Hope [161 words]Man of the WestSep 1, 2006 16:1649718
What countries are people moving to? [15 words]PeterJun 6, 2007 12:5649718
1REPLY TO 'THE REAL ONE' [327 words]DANIEL REDMONDMar 15, 2008 09:5449718
2Dutch cowardice reaches the lowest of lows... [114 words]Unrepentent TexanJul 14, 2006 11:4249651
1Wrong attitude [157 words]Man of the WestAug 2, 2006 16:2449651
1I can't agree [147 words]Mary ConnorMar 22, 2007 08:2249651
1don't judge all in the same manner. [598 words]martMar 30, 2008 21:4449651
2So fight back already [182 words]Unrepentant TexanApr 8, 2008 10:4049651
2When will Europe "wake up"? (rhetorical question) [155 words]RealistSep 16, 2008 16:3149651
european emigration [227 words]NielsJul 14, 2006 11:4149650
European Left - La Trahison des clercs [212 words]VijayJul 12, 2006 13:2549510
Don't forget the crazy support for the bloody Khmers Rouges by European 'intellectuals'. [76 words]methlenAug 15, 2006 02:1349510
to vijay [8 words]Kepha HorAug 11, 2014 15:0249510
2Europe at a crossroads [211 words]DarrenJul 11, 2006 14:1749408
1Fleeing Europe [70 words]Man of the WestJul 12, 2006 15:4949408
1Stand up [46 words]Concerned AmericanNov 21, 2006 17:2049408
1Ponder.... [56 words]GalwayJan 26, 2007 12:4049408
You are right [5 words]TerryMar 18, 2007 19:2649408
2EuroIDIOTS [80 words]menodhimmiSep 10, 2010 18:0049408
How Will Europe Survive? [18 words]AlexJul 10, 2006 23:1249354
to Alex: How will Europe survive [114 words]Anubhav SinghAug 3, 2006 03:0049354
Coming Apart! [8 words]GalwayJan 24, 2007 12:5449354
Make it harder for Militant Islam [31 words]Octavio JohansonMar 10, 2006 19:2339680
Eurabia is a giant Kossovo [126 words]Octavio JohansonMar 10, 2006 10:0339624
What then [71 words]TerryMar 18, 2007 19:2239624
Neils, Saladin- You are part of the problem [45 words]Octavio JohansonMar 10, 2006 06:0139606
To Octavio [356 words]NielsMar 15, 2006 11:4139606
If at first you don't succeed....deny, deny, again. [127 words]joeJul 11, 2006 15:4839606
Sorry [48 words]TerryMar 18, 2007 19:3239606
Nazi and Soviet Comparison [121 words]SaladinMar 8, 2006 09:3639363
The European press [39 words]Octavio JohansonMar 9, 2006 16:5839363
Van Gogh:' America is the last beacon of hope in a steadily darkening world' [94 words]Ben van de PolderMar 6, 2006 22:5439125
Dutch mistakes and the Van Gogh tragedy [84 words]Octavio JohansonMar 7, 2006 03:3639125
Dutch mistakes? [561 words]NielsMar 7, 2006 14:1439125
Countries willing to fight back??? [113 words]SaladinMar 7, 2006 15:0639125
Saladin, Nazis and Soviets [79 words]Octavio JohansonMar 7, 2006 17:0739125
to Niels [553 words]SiddaMar 7, 2006 19:3239125
to Sidda [748 words]NielsMar 8, 2006 07:1539125
Europeans Fleeing "Eurabia" [179 words]SaladinMar 8, 2006 12:0839125
back at you, Niels [1386 words]SiddaMar 8, 2006 18:3339125
Neils [140 words]Octavio JohansonMar 9, 2006 10:3239125
and to you Sidda [1231 words]NielsMar 9, 2006 11:0239125
A thoughtful answer to Neil [235 words]Octavio JohansonMar 9, 2006 11:0739125
To saladin [891 words]nielsMar 9, 2006 12:0339125
to Niels and Sidda [23 words]M. al-ContentMar 9, 2006 17:1139125
It is not about the USA [194 words]Octavio JohansonMar 9, 2006 17:1739125
List of Dutch mistakes [20 words]Octavio JohansonMar 10, 2006 06:1839125
Europeans Fleeing "Eurabia"- Octavio [488 words]SaladinMar 10, 2006 22:4639125
Europe will be conquered by muslims, trust it! [207 words]Muhammad AriefJul 12, 2006 10:4639125
Arief [282 words]LisaAug 6, 2006 23:3439125
Thank u Lisa Dear [100 words]RiseDec 12, 2006 06:5439125
Muhammad Arief - Sir [475 words]LisaDec 12, 2006 17:4039125
3Why are Europeans so Wimpy? [124 words]DebraTApr 11, 2007 15:0939125
mongol hordes [578 words]onlineMar 30, 2008 22:3439125
TO THE JEWS OF EUROPE, WELCOME [84 words]DONVANMar 6, 2006 15:3939085
1You throw out peaceful Jews, you invite in Moslems who believe they should destroy you! Smart !! [92 words]farahJul 13, 2006 18:4639085
I agree, Welcome to America! [9 words]KeliMar 13, 2007 08:1339085
1Islam and Europe [368 words]David SternlightMar 30, 2007 03:3239085

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Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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