2 readers online now  |  69 million page views

Thanks in advance , dhimmi no more!

Reader comment on item: How to End Terrorism:
in response to reader comment: For Ianus Wellhausen and the history of early Islam

Submitted by Ianus (Poland), Dec 30, 2006 at 17:42

Hi, dhimmi no more !

> In the case of Egypt it is very difficult to define what is really the late antique period, but the way I see is: it is the period extending from about the first century CE until the year 750 CE or the end of the Umayyads and the early 3Abbasid's revolution. I'm sure you might find other definitions but notice that my interest in the origin of Islam and linking it with the past.

Or wasn't the limit defined to an extent by the fact of abandoning Greek in official corresponence on behalf of Arabic and introducing Arab coinage by 'Abd al-Malik (685-705) ? It was a visible , hardly reversible break with the past the Moslems were determined to rewrite or annihilate? Before that caliph's "reform" the illiterate unskilled Arab occupiers were unable either to conduct correctly official documentation or to produce their own coins and had unwillingly to rely on the infidels' superior language and monetary system .

> I have read al-Batriq or Eutychius only preserved in writings of other authors (eg: Butler). I'm not familiar with "Nazm al-gawahir" (Nazm al-gawahir really means: the "arranging of the precious" The word gawahir for sure does not not pearls. Pearls means Lu'lu' and not gawahir. Notice that the letter geem is a give away that the author was indeed Egyptian as the Arabic letter Jeem is vocalized in Egypt as geem and the g here is as in: go.

> I'm sure Dr. Pipes would not mind if you post the page that you have in mind and I will be glad to povide you with a linear translation as well as a tafseer (exegesis) translation.

OK. If I find something I'll put it here to be translated , with Dr. Pipes' permission of course.

> You must also be very careful about trying to reconstruct history and "what really happened?" based on one single text as Arabic sources by both Arabs and non-Arabs can be real traps.

You mean the Golden Dome could in sooth come from a different church or that Moslems were capable of honestly producing or aquiring one?

How do they themselves expalin the origin of the Golden Dome though? Archangel Gibrail brought it from paradise on a dome-like humped camel or what ?

> As for Wellhausen: His work on literary critcism of the Qur'an did not work because the Qur'an as a flat text and it does not have the rich literary deposits that the first five books of the Bible have. Now must reading is his: "Reste arabischen Heidentums" and: "Prolegomena zur altesten Geschichte des Islams" and for sure his "Das arabische Reich und sein Sturz." He for sure makes very interesting observations but now we have better sources from another great German historian, Albrecht Noth" who through his great "Quellenkritische" (in English: "The Early Arabic Historical Tradition") provides us with a great examination of the early literary sources of Islam and a real wake up call to the student of early islam about the nature of the literary sources in Arabic.

The Germans did much to debunk the myth of Islam. I wonder how many of such critical works have been translated into Arabic?

As to Wellhausen his main interest was Judaism and the Bible. Islam and the Arabs were just an additional field of interest for him.

> if you are interested in modern literary cirticism of the Qur'an must reading here would be Wansbrough's "Quranic Studies."

Thanks for the hint. I'll try to find and read the books.

> Now if you want to read a great combination of Wellhausen's work and Noth's work in reagard to literary criticism of the ealy Arabic language sources and the issue of Mecca and Meccan trade I urge you to read Patricia Crone's great work: "Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam."

Thanks again. I'll look for the book in the biggest library in the city but I am afraid that it is not there. I have already looked through all the available books on Islam there.

> Do not hesitate to post any text you need translated from Arabic (be it Quranic, classical, middle or modern Arabic) to English. I will be glad to help.

Thanks again!

Submitting....

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

Comment on this item

Mark my comment as a response to Thanks in advance , dhimmi no more! by Ianus

Email me if someone replies to my comment

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

See recent outstanding comments.

Follow Daniel Pipes

Facebook   Twitter   RSS   Join Mailing List
eXTReMe Tracker

All materials by Daniel Pipes on this site: © 1968-2021 Daniel Pipes. daniel.pipes@gmail.com and @DanielPipes

Support Daniel Pipes' work with a tax-deductible donation to the Middle East Forum.Daniel J. Pipes

(The MEF is a publicly supported, nonprofit organization under section 501(c)3 of the Internal Revenue Code.

Contributions are tax deductible to the full extent allowed by law. Tax-ID 23-774-9796, approved Apr. 27, 1998.

For more information, view our IRS letter of determination.)