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Reader comment on item: Spreading Islam in American Public Schools
Submitted by (name withheld) (United Kingdom), Apr 19, 2005 at 11:58
You'll hear no argument from me, Trygve, against a school, or university, textbook telling history in the proper/right/objective context. That's the ideal way of teaching people about other people. I actually skimmed through the "History Alive!" textbook; yet I had a hard time finding any honest analysis in the textbook. It touches on the hard facts--which are what facts are, objective/true--but lacks any honesty. Granted, it may not be suitable to include analyses on civilization histories and bore middle school children with lengthy opinions on the grey areas all civilizations entail. But what about the basic, proper-level, insights into the real facts that took place since the birth of Islam? In the book, there is not even the slightest hint at the Apostasy Wars (c. 632-635 C.E.) which claimed the lives of thousands of infidel Arabs, the arbitrariness of the Hadiths (which is where the information is drawn from), the skepticism of Arab religious scholars of Muhammad's prophethood, etc. I believe with all objectivity comes an equal share of honesty. And by honesty, I mean giving a true weavework of the facts, a type of coherence to history. The two, objectivity and honesty, run side by side.Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".
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Title | Commenter | Date | Thread |
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2 | This is funny [404 words] | Peter Hall | Jan 7, 2012 07:56 | 192358 | |
![]() | Prashant | Jan 7, 2012 21:02 | 192358 | ||
![]() | Petrus | Mar 1, 2012 12:19 | 192358 | ||
Islam is a religion [11 words] | Donna Dixon | Jan 5, 2012 00:11 | 192304 | ||
Religion out of classroom [61 words] | RC | Nov 21, 2010 15:36 | 180365 | ||
1 | ![]() | Jennifer K | Nov 28, 2010 20:26 | 180365 | |
![]() | RC | Nov 30, 2010 01:23 | 180365 | ||
1 | Hmm [6 words] | KL | Apr 21, 2010 14:07 | 171538 | |
4 | From A Muslim Student [312 words] | Mysh | Feb 28, 2008 10:49 | 121327 | |
1 | ![]() | yasemin | Sep 5, 2008 18:34 | 121327 | |
![]() | yasemin | Sep 7, 2008 14:34 | 121327 | ||
![]() | yasemin | Sep 7, 2008 14:42 | 121327 | ||
![]() | Ted | Aug 12, 2010 01:41 | 121327 | ||
Tolerance by any other name [139 words] | TheTeaDiva | Feb 23, 2008 02:29 | 120828 | ||
1 | Islam: [195 words] | Larry Mitchell | Apr 26, 2007 18:06 | 90792 | |
1 | ![]() | Ted | May 27, 2007 03:33 | 90792 | |
1 | ![]() | Larry Mitchell | May 27, 2007 18:22 | 90792 | |
![]() | Ted | May 28, 2007 19:10 | 90792 | ||
1 | ![]() | Larry Mitchell | Jun 2, 2007 14:22 | 90792 | |
![]() | S. Sawyer | Aug 17, 2007 21:44 | 90792 | ||
![]() | donvan | Aug 28, 2007 12:54 | 90792 | ||
![]() | DONVAN | Aug 29, 2007 13:36 | 90792 | ||
![]() | Ray Bright | Jan 26, 2008 18:21 | 90792 | ||
![]() | Carol | May 23, 2008 17:01 | 90792 | ||
![]() | mahmoud ahmed | Jan 18, 2010 15:58 | 90792 | ||
1 | ... wake up please before it is too late [1018 words] | sure enough observer | Apr 9, 2007 18:49 | 88937 | |
![]() | Generation of Tomorrow | May 10, 2007 19:11 | 88937 | ||
![]() | sure enough observer | May 12, 2007 18:06 | 88937 | ||
1 | ![]() | beenish | Jun 10, 2007 06:51 | 88937 | |
![]() | sure enough observer | Jun 11, 2007 17:37 | 88937 | ||
![]() | jeannie | Jun 20, 2007 05:02 | 88937 | ||
1 | ![]() | sure enough observer | Jun 21, 2007 13:11 | 88937 | |
![]() | Jeannie | Jun 22, 2007 06:44 | 88937 | ||
1 | ![]() | sure enough observer | Jun 25, 2007 08:48 | 88937 | |
![]() | kamalesh, india | Jun 26, 2007 06:10 | 88937 | ||
![]() | Gaye | Jun 27, 2007 09:24 | 88937 | ||
![]() | Gaye | Jun 27, 2007 09:42 | 88937 | ||
![]() | Gaye | Jun 28, 2007 09:08 | 88937 | ||
![]() | sure enough observer | Jun 28, 2007 15:07 | 88937 | ||
![]() | sure enough observer | Jun 28, 2007 15:32 | 88937 | ||
![]() | jeannie | Jun 29, 2007 13:02 | 88937 | ||
![]() | Richard Reed | Mar 31, 2008 20:10 | 88937 | ||
![]() | Michael Reed | Apr 1, 2008 21:05 | 88937 | ||
![]() | Ammar | Jun 20, 2008 23:33 | 88937 | ||
1 | ![]() | sure enough observer | Jun 22, 2008 13:53 | 88937 | |
![]() | Maggie | Dec 7, 2009 20:36 | 88937 | ||
![]() | Mavish | Dec 10, 2009 20:07 | 88937 | ||
![]() | RC | Nov 27, 2010 11:18 | 88937 | ||
![]() | brahim | Mar 13, 2011 17:18 | 88937 | ||
![]() | Stas | Dec 5, 2012 13:42 | 88937 | ||
"Teach Terror" is an inflamatory misnomer on this article [132 words] w/response from Daniel Pipes | David | Aug 21, 2006 19:04 | 53643 | ||
![]() | Kathy | Jan 22, 2007 09:31 | 53643 | ||
![]() | David | Jan 22, 2007 17:02 | 53643 | ||
![]() | Kathy | Jan 27, 2007 23:19 | 53643 | ||
![]() | David | Jan 29, 2007 16:47 | 53643 | ||
![]() | Kat | Jan 31, 2007 21:06 | 53643 | ||
What? [169 words] | Dana | Jun 10, 2006 09:02 | 47365 | ||
Dis-convicted self. [334 words] | A-Muslim | May 26, 2006 11:21 | 46453 | ||
![]() | C Dailey | Jun 3, 2006 23:59 | 46453 | ||
![]() | Klaus Vandenburg | Sep 12, 2006 00:14 | 46453 | ||
![]() | An American | Nov 16, 2006 04:23 | 46453 | ||
![]() | A non muslim | Nov 16, 2006 04:32 | 46453 | ||
![]() | A non muslim | Nov 16, 2006 04:41 | 46453 | ||
![]() | Ahmed | Dec 31, 2006 23:39 | 46453 | ||
![]() | Kathy | Jan 21, 2007 02:18 | 46453 | ||
![]() | Kathy | Jan 22, 2007 09:57 | 46453 | ||
![]() | Kat | Jan 22, 2007 10:01 | 46453 | ||
![]() | Kamalesh | Mar 26, 2007 05:37 | 46453 | ||
![]() | raid ben khudair | Apr 11, 2007 13:09 | 46453 | ||
![]() | Michael Raad | Mar 31, 2008 19:54 | 46453 | ||
School of Islam [351 words] | Salam | Feb 19, 2006 03:45 | 36306 | ||
![]() | American-born Muslim | Mar 2, 2006 20:28 | 36306 | ||
![]() | D. McClellan | Mar 27, 2006 16:19 | 36306 | ||
![]() | Inge Heikenfeld | May 13, 2006 10:15 | 36306 | ||
![]() | Thulja Heikenfeld | May 18, 2006 06:38 | 36306 | ||
![]() | C Dailey | Jun 4, 2006 00:11 | 36306 | ||
![]() | Drew | Jul 25, 2006 00:10 | 36306 | ||
![]() | ali | Aug 25, 2006 05:04 | 36306 | ||
1 | ![]() | AS | Nov 1, 2006 09:49 | 36306 | |
![]() | The Destroyer | Jul 28, 2007 13:13 | 36306 | ||
Why not spread Palestinian Christianity in American Schools ! [607 words] | Abe Ata | Dec 4, 2005 18:00 | 29407 | ||
Communism: nothing to do with ...Islam [101 words] | Marco Garrino | Dec 1, 2005 06:15 | 29221 | ||
Seeking a definition [56 words] | robert a | Nov 25, 2005 11:32 | 28838 | ||
The media would never analize this kind of subject matter [5 words] | Nick | Oct 25, 2005 14:54 | 27305 | ||
Another look at the syllabus [166 words] | Rich Rostrom | Sep 20, 2005 14:39 | 26066 | ||
RE: Mr.Grube Response to commenter Bryan: Get your fact straight! [209 words] | dd | Aug 16, 2005 01:10 | 24716 | ||
Why Quran's death penalty is in blame? [164 words] | jakaraya | Aug 11, 2005 16:53 | 24579 | ||
![]() | Muyoboke Aimé | Apr 22, 2008 12:04 | 24579 | ||
An opinion from England [318 words] | british muslim | Aug 11, 2005 09:50 | 24573 | ||
![]() | Cory | Jan 18, 2006 17:04 | 24573 | ||
![]() | inge heikenfeld | May 13, 2006 10:42 | 24573 | ||
![]() | Gaye | Jun 29, 2007 09:52 | 24573 | ||
Islam in public schools [75 words] | Kim Segar | Jun 2, 2005 10:04 | 22533 | ||
Separation of state and religion [274 words] | Krishna Muthurangu | May 25, 2005 05:47 | 22400 | ||
![]() | pusyamitra_sunga | May 11, 2006 04:43 | 22400 | ||
![]() | C Dailey | May 26, 2006 01:50 | 22400 | ||
![]() | james | Nov 2, 2006 01:34 | 22400 | ||
Money for Opening Madrasas [148 words] | Vishal Verma | May 2, 2005 21:12 | 21943 | ||
![]() | (name withheld) | Apr 19, 2005 11:58 | 21728 | ||
Reply to Ghengis Ghandi [123 words] | Patriotchick | Apr 19, 2005 01:55 | 21718 | ||
Islam and Christianity need to be seen in the right timeframe [270 words] | Trygve Inda | Apr 18, 2005 15:14 | 21709 | ||
![]() | a | Apr 21, 2006 23:40 | 21709 | ||
![]() | Kathy | Jan 27, 2007 23:39 | 21709 | ||
What, me worry? [49 words] | Genghis Gandhi | Apr 17, 2005 10:33 | 21697 | ||
The Ghouls Begin to Lurk [640 words] | (name withheld) | Apr 15, 2005 19:14 | 21690 | ||
Response to David Smyth. [73 words] | Tyer Mathaowny | Apr 14, 2005 15:29 | 21664 | ||
In response to Joedevsond. [115 words] | Tyer Mathaowny | Apr 14, 2005 15:15 | 21662 | ||
Why is racism taught in our schools? [429 words] | Tyer Mathaowny | Apr 14, 2005 14:51 | 21659 | ||
Betrayal! [600 words] | Vernon Richards | Apr 13, 2005 16:27 | 21639 | ||
![]() | C Dailey | Jun 4, 2006 00:24 | 21639 | ||
US should support Christian countries [94 words] | Riva T Philip | Apr 12, 2005 02:01 | 21549 | ||
The Weave Of Ignorance Created By Silent Muslims....... [759 words] | Renee | Apr 7, 2005 22:12 | 21478 | ||
For concerned parents [256 words] | Cici | Apr 6, 2005 21:06 | 21453 | ||
A response to Arthur Kittay's Comments [72 words] | Nicholas E. Zipf | Apr 4, 2005 19:54 | 21346 | ||
Response to David M. Frost: This is not a violation of the 1st amendment [122 words] | Adam, J.D. | Mar 17, 2005 17:17 | 21046 | ||
Islamic Indoctrination [360 words] | Wendy Carney | Mar 15, 2005 14:54 | 20999 | ||
![]() | Colloquy With Scottsdale Gov. Board President [51 words] | Jerome du Bois | Mar 12, 2005 10:21 | 20964 | |
We came here to take over [92 words] | Michael Slattery | Mar 9, 2005 13:27 | 20919 | ||
![]() | hanan | Mar 28, 2006 19:32 | 20919 | ||
No to Islam [31 words] | Arthur Kittay | Mar 8, 2005 16:14 | 20873 | ||
"School Choice" is the only answer. [133 words] | Marty L | Mar 7, 2005 22:36 | 20865 | ||
We Have NOT YET GOTTEN the Message of 9/11 [50 words] | Vince Dainotto | Mar 7, 2005 08:54 | 20711 | ||
![]() | hanan | Mar 26, 2006 20:48 | 20711 | ||
![]() | jesse | Aug 12, 2006 18:00 | 20711 | ||
Islamic studies [118 words] | Patricia | Mar 6, 2005 17:57 | 20709 | ||
Parents should monitor their children's school's activities [63 words] | Joedevsond | Mar 3, 2005 13:32 | 20646 | ||
Where are you evil ACLU? [110 words] | Jim Longo | Mar 2, 2005 21:11 | 20637 | ||
Double standard [25 words] | Fred | Mar 2, 2005 12:56 | 20624 | ||
Positive comment for "hajira" [325 words] | Phil | Mar 1, 2005 22:17 | 20606 | ||
![]() | Money talks [240 words] | Donna M. | Mar 1, 2005 21:57 | 20605 | |
Protest very publicly [64 words] | Douglas Book | Mar 1, 2005 12:14 | 20576 | ||
![]() | joe | Aug 13, 2006 12:49 | 20576 | ||
Response to comment by Pat [125 words] | Richard | Mar 1, 2005 01:42 | 20571 | ||
1 | Why not more Christian missionaries? [259 words] | FutureTense | Feb 28, 2005 21:23 | 20567 | |
![]() | the terminator | Oct 15, 2007 03:38 | 20567 | ||
Islamic fascist [25 words] | Steve Baldauff | Feb 28, 2005 19:43 | 20564 | ||
Ridiculous [64 words] | David M. Frost | Feb 28, 2005 14:17 | 20561 | ||
A quick look at the curriculum from the book in question [88 words] | Eric Elnicki | Feb 28, 2005 14:02 | 20559 | ||
No thanks. [69 words] | David Allen | Feb 28, 2005 13:52 | 20558 | ||
All in moderation [216 words] | K C | Feb 27, 2005 20:06 | 20554 | ||
![]() | 3 | Islamic Indoctrination in Scottsdale, Arizona Public School [612 words] w/response from Daniel Pipes | Janie White | Feb 27, 2005 10:45 | 20546 |
![]() | LOUIS STOUCH | May 10, 2006 23:15 | 20546 | ||
![]() | Louis Stouch | May 11, 2006 17:01 | 20546 | ||
![]() | S.B. | Aug 10, 2006 03:37 | 20546 | ||
![]() | felix Nogal | Oct 24, 2006 07:49 | 20546 | ||
![]() | Frank Champine | Dec 4, 2007 12:21 | 20546 | ||
1 | ![]() | Cindy Ross | Dec 7, 2007 11:40 | 20546 | |
![]() | Ynnatchkah | Dec 7, 2007 18:16 | 20546 | ||
![]() | AW | Nov 12, 2009 17:10 | 20546 | ||
![]() | Cindy Ross | Nov 13, 2009 02:10 | 20546 | ||
![]() | AW | Nov 14, 2009 04:18 | 20546 | ||
![]() | Beatrice Gabriel | Feb 26, 2013 08:44 | 20546 | ||
![]() | Helen | Nov 11, 2013 14:10 | 20546 | ||
The web of ignorance that we weave.. [823 words] | hajira | Feb 17, 2005 06:40 | 20409 | ||
Christians Sticking Heads In Sand [42 words] | Mr. Kennedy | Feb 10, 2005 10:18 | 20240 | ||
Response to commenter Funk Soul Bruhva [496 words] | J.D. | Feb 1, 2005 15:40 | 20049 | ||
Big deal [90 words] | Angela | Feb 1, 2005 11:31 | 20036 | ||
Be informed [108 words] | C.R Grube | Jan 28, 2005 13:43 | 19945 | ||
Wake up quickly [25 words] | F Barnett | Jan 27, 2005 14:48 | 19912 | ||
Response to commenter Bryan: Get your fact straight! [231 words] | C.R Grube | Jan 26, 2005 17:34 | 19894 | ||
The teaching of Islam in California middle schools [1034 words] | Razly Miles | Dec 22, 2004 16:30 | 19113 | ||
![]() | Tulia H. | May 17, 2006 22:14 | 19113 | ||
![]() | Najum Tasneem | Aug 17, 2006 11:56 | 19113 | ||
![]() | razan | Sep 18, 2006 10:57 | 19113 | ||
![]() | ms.rivera | Oct 27, 2008 22:20 | 19113 | ||
It is our job [81 words] | Phil | Dec 20, 2004 13:24 | 19049 | ||
Muslims don't want to spread Islam but counter the Negative Image like artile like this [42 words] | Rakibur Rahman | Dec 18, 2004 23:28 | 19037 | ||
![]() | kamalesh | May 13, 2007 07:54 | 19037 | ||
![]() | kamalesh, India | May 21, 2007 08:08 | 19037 | ||
Ahmed Murad, Bridgeview IL, the common thread to this threat [163 words] | DL | Dec 14, 2004 07:14 | 18979 | ||
![]() | irfan | Apr 21, 2008 15:07 | 18979 | ||
Label CAIR "Treasonous" [266 words] | Funk Soul Bruhva | Dec 10, 2004 00:25 | 18956 | ||
Melbourne Australia court documentation of Islamic intrigues [32 words] | M. Levant | Dec 6, 2004 23:21 | 18885 | ||
Who's fighting this situation? [96 words] | Chris Landrum | Dec 6, 2004 22:19 | 18883 | ||
Don't waste time trying to reform the public schools [64 words] | Tom Francis | Dec 5, 2004 21:08 | 18865 | ||
islam at LIC HS, astoria,NY [361 words] | salome | Dec 4, 2004 21:08 | 18859 | ||
Response to "Illegal" [229 words] | Adam, J.D. | Dec 2, 2004 15:12 | 18825 | ||
There's no use in crying [49 words] | Bernard | Nov 30, 2004 15:36 | 18729 | ||
Be prepared to play fair [47 words] | B Blakely | Nov 30, 2004 14:54 | 18728 | ||
Islam in Schools [30 words] | Ron Irvine | Nov 30, 2004 05:07 | 18712 | ||
Warrior in the spread and defense of Islam [136 words] | S.C.Panda | Nov 30, 2004 04:46 | 18711 | ||
The real problem [151 words] | John | Nov 29, 2004 23:15 | 18708 | ||
Come On! [18 words] | Okttol Sohoun | Nov 29, 2004 20:53 | 18706 | ||
They Should be doing This At Mecca [41 words] | Antthy Zohuidy | Nov 29, 2004 20:46 | 18705 | ||
Response to "How different from Creationism?" [136 words] | Tom | Nov 29, 2004 16:06 | 18702 | ||
Bedouins conquer America! [134 words] | T.A. | Nov 29, 2004 14:54 | 18700 | ||
Communist - oops I mean Islamist brainwashing [148 words] | Karen Prager | Nov 29, 2004 14:12 | 18699 | ||
The solution is private schools [134 words] | Maryallene Otis | Nov 29, 2004 11:18 | 18696 | ||
Comeuppances of Christian proselytization [403 words] | Irfan Khawaja | Nov 28, 2004 14:45 | 18687 | ||
Where is Pat Robertson? [123 words] | Romesh Chander | Nov 27, 2004 21:22 | 18677 | ||
Illegal [62 words] | F. Shawki | Nov 27, 2004 15:41 | 18676 | ||
A dangerous campaign vs Christian countries; be aware of it [596 words] | Ashoorina Jacob | Nov 27, 2004 14:30 | 18674 | ||
blame it on abraham [211 words] | Donald | Nov 27, 2004 13:22 | 18672 | ||
Is it happening? [67 words] | Pat | Nov 27, 2004 13:01 | 18671 | ||
Freedom, a two edged sword [192 words] | Darwin Barrett | Nov 26, 2004 20:20 | 18662 | ||
Great stuff [6 words] | Al Baxter | Nov 26, 2004 12:28 | 18655 | ||
Somewhere in Foggy Lands of Academia [195 words] | Seth Foster | Nov 26, 2004 12:25 | 18654 | ||
Hidden agenda exposed [20 words] | Joshua | Nov 26, 2004 08:42 | 18651 | ||
Thank you [34 words] | Tom Mcgee | Nov 26, 2004 08:04 | 18650 | ||
Where's the ACLU on this one? [14 words] | Clyde Wright | Nov 26, 2004 03:10 | 18648 | ||
Our weakness.... [126 words] | Doc Heath | Nov 25, 2004 23:11 | 18647 | ||
Ramadan "Lunch" Rooms [122 words] | J Ruberry | Nov 25, 2004 23:00 | 18646 | ||
![]() | hanan | Mar 26, 2006 21:04 | 18646 | ||
![]() | Lydia | Oct 29, 2006 19:47 | 18646 | ||
Inconsistencies? [103 words] | Jonathan Usher | Nov 25, 2004 21:17 | 18644 | ||
Suggestion [79 words] | Hari Iyer | Nov 25, 2004 20:14 | 18643 | ||
![]() | aftab | Aug 16, 2008 08:26 | 18643 | ||
Can other religions marginalize "Understanding Islam" [143 words] | Hari Iyer | Nov 25, 2004 19:54 | 18641 | ||
You can't have it both ways [211 words] | Romesh Chander | Nov 25, 2004 15:11 | 18637 | ||
They learn quickly, don't they? [278 words] | Larry Wood | Nov 25, 2004 14:15 | 18635 | ||
Coming to a school near you [206 words] | Grim Reaper | Nov 25, 2004 10:48 | 18629 | ||
Moderate Muslims at Work [65 words] | James W. Dobbs | Nov 25, 2004 10:47 | 18628 | ||
The silence screams volumes [184 words] | N. Raabe | Nov 25, 2004 08:35 | 18626 | ||
"Democracy at work"...Bin Laden says THANK YOU,SIR!! [97 words] | Marcos Berenstein | Nov 25, 2004 06:33 | 18622 | ||
A great possibility [143 words] | C. McNeill | Nov 25, 2004 06:26 | 18621 | ||
Meanwhile, God and Christianity cannot be mentioned [415 words] | Ellen Black | Nov 25, 2004 03:23 | 18618 | ||
Healthy democracy at work [41 words] | B. Lewis | Nov 24, 2004 22:22 | 18613 | ||
Islam vs. ERA [240 words] | Arlinda DeAngelis | Nov 24, 2004 21:44 | 18612 | ||
Writing is on the wall [132 words] | Robert Boland | Nov 24, 2004 21:09 | 18611 | ||
Not in my son's school they won't! [187 words] | L. Maza | Nov 24, 2004 19:33 | 18605 | ||
Islam in schools [81 words] | Kim Segar | Nov 24, 2004 19:33 | 18604 | ||
And some wonder why education is going down the tubes [17 words] | Jakemeister | Nov 24, 2004 19:28 | 18603 | ||
Disturbing, though highly unlikely to get receptive audience here [145 words] | Lee Bender | Nov 24, 2004 19:12 | 18602 | ||
![]() | Unholy Alliance [160 words] | Peter J. Herz | Nov 24, 2004 18:59 | 18601 | |
Curriculum takeovers [109 words] | Ruth Lowry | Nov 24, 2004 18:55 | 18600 | ||
Where is the outcry? [89 words] | J. Greg Mack | Nov 24, 2004 18:43 | 18599 | ||
How can this occur? [87 words] | R. Davis | Nov 24, 2004 17:48 | 18598 | ||
Equal access [75 words] | Bob | Nov 24, 2004 17:05 | 18597 | ||
How different from Creationism? [89 words] | Michael in Folsom, CA | Nov 24, 2004 15:46 | 18594 | ||
![]() | Rob | Jul 2, 2007 07:04 | 18594 | ||
Muslim proselytizing [42 words] | Alan Taikeff | Nov 24, 2004 15:29 | 18592 | ||
Hidebound Islam [100 words] | Lenn Chow (Canada) | Nov 24, 2004 15:25 | 18591 | ||
1 | Radical Islam, Communism, Hate America Taught Daily [415 words] | Bill Bryan | Nov 24, 2004 15:06 | 18589 | |
![]() | Nick | Jan 12, 2006 21:51 | 18589 | ||
Multi-Cults [46 words] | David Smyth | Nov 24, 2004 14:56 | 18588 | ||
Great Article [80 words] | Ann Eller | Nov 24, 2004 13:43 | 18587 | ||
A serious problem [157 words] | Dominic Rubat | Nov 24, 2004 13:13 | 18583 |