28 readers online now

99,126 comments by 26,322 readers

Go to Mobile Site

What is moderate Islam?
Reader comment on item: [The Search for Moderate Islam:] A Reply to Lawrence Auster

Submitted by LK (Lithuania), Jan 31, 2005 at 03:15

Coming to the dispute of L.Auster and D.Pipes it shoud be first of all defined what the "moderate Islam" is. Whether "moderate Islam" is defined like a variety of Islam that embraces the modernity with all its liberal trappings as women rights etc.(1), or we understand the "moderate Islam" as such which avoids any violent confrontation with other civilizations and shuns the totalitarian model of society(2).

If we understand in the sense (1) then it is almost obvious that such moderate Islam cannot exist or at least it is very unlikely that it could exist. Liberal western values and the values of Islam are incompatible not superficially, but at their very core. It is no the place here to explain the why of this incompatibility, but the only thing would suffice - the autonomous individuum of the liberal culture hardly can have place in Islam where the individuum is nothing outside his relation to God and to the entire creation, where individuum exists not as "thing in itself" but only in the relation to the Universe. The relationism could be formulated as one of the most important principles of the Islamic civilization - everything, ecxept God, exists only in the relation to other. Only God is One.

Moreover the incompatibility exists not only on the level of values, but on the level of the logical fundaments of rationality. As Russian academician A.Smirnov has shown even such crucial, everyday concepts as "intention" and "action"(and many more) cannot be formulated in the terms of Aristotelian logic which largely underpins the Western conceptual thinking.

However one thing is values and logic, and other thing is the agressive, totalitarian and exclusive stance against non Muslim world(and very often if not primarily against the oponents in the Muslim world itself). Here I see no obstacles that a moderate Islam in the sense (2) could really exist. History knows many instances when Muslim states lead quite moderate foreign policy, when 3ulama paid only lip service to some aspects of Islam deemed unsavory by Westerners. Traditional Islam was certainly not exclusivist and totalitarian. It allowed a considerable range of opinions and interpretations. In fact there was never a true orthodoxy in Islam, there could be hardly any interpretation that would be considered final as pronounced by the Heaven itself. Quranic verses certainly were considered the "voice of God" but in order to be made into practical law and rules they had to be interpreted. Even the status of Quran(created, uncreated) was a matter of discussion. What was considered "orthodoxy" was in fact an opinion supported at any given moment by the rulers or by consensus of scholars.

Islam has even created a concept of tolerance which was far broader that the Western culture could even allow. I mean the concept of the great Islamic Sufi scholar Ibn Arabi. And even if the Ibn Arabian views were and are followed only by a tiny minority of Muslims, the very fact that such concept exists within Islam is very interesting. To be noted that the version of tolerance having the breadth of Ibn Arabi would be impossible in the Western culture due to Western fundaments of rationality based on Aristotelian logic. One of the features of Aristotelian logic, as it is known, is so called "tree of kinds and genders" which underpins the hierarchy of things. In order to be made compatible two things must necessarily be given some overarching kind or gender, reduced to one category. While islamic thought in principle could accept different things as genuinely different without trying to reduce them to some common category. Thus there is in the Western culture a hidden drive towards totalization and that has been noted by some leading Western philosphers. It was even noted that it is very difficult to think about the time in the Western philosophy because Western thought tries to eliminate the factor of time reducing everything into some timeless "idea".

Thus Islam can change in some important aspects not because it is not essentialist. In fact every culture has some very basic underpinnings, only that they are not visible but hidden in the entrails of that culture. However they support the entire building of a particular culture and make that certain contents cannot be assimilated by that particular culture or at least cannot be assimiliated without a very serious readaptation and distortion. Each civilization has its own "universe of sense" and the universe of sense of one civilization may not be reducible to another.

Islam could change not because it has no any fixed essence but because it has a large pool of already existing ideas. Moreover the tendency to change could be said one of the essential features of Islam and this despite of Islam's attachment to the past and the aversion to "innovations". The innovations(bid3aat) is in fact not every new thing but merely that which cannot be fitted into the "universe of sense" of Islam. However as it was noted above, the "sense universe" of Islam is relational. Everything exists in relation to something else.As it is said in Quran "God has created many beautiful pairs". Therefore one can be truly itself and truly exist in the islamic universe, if one constantly tries to transcend oneself and become Other. In the Western platonizing concept the change is the sign of imperfection and death and which is perfect has to be immutable. In Islam, on the contrary, that which is perfect has to seek constantly to become Other and to realize, make apparent the potentialities of the Other hidden in himself. Immutability in Islam equals death and non existence. It is not surprising that precisely those forces in Islam which consider their tradition as rigid, totalitarian and immutable, are bearers of death.

Finally I would like to say that if I consider the greatest mistake of L.Auster his inability to understand that Islam has the potential of change and that the essentialism in the Islamic culture could mean something very different than in the Western culture. In fact the essence of Islam is precisely the very absence of such essence conceived in the platonic sense as immutable, static "idea". The "essence" in Islam is something that constantly fluctuates between manifested and unmanifested, between hidden and apparent.

While D.Pipes' mistake is considering Islam as lacking any essential nature and underpinings, therefore he believes that Islam can fully embrace modernity and therefore looks in islam for supporters of the Western modernity and liberal values, and it is not surprising that he finds such people mostly among ex-Muslims and indifferents.

But certainly not such people are the bearers of the moderate islam but those who have a not totalitarian, tolerant outlook even if this outlook could be very different from the modern one. Yet tolerant stance could help to establish a practical working relationship between Islam and the West without any need of Islam becoming West or West becoming Islam.

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened for relevance, substance, and tone, and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome, but comments are rejected if scurrilous, off-topic, vulgar, ad hominem, or otherwise viewed as inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the Guidelines for Comments. For informational purposes, we identify countries from which comments are sent.

Submit a comment on this item

Search by Enter name or date
Search Forum Comments:

Reader comments (93) on this item

Title By Date
A IS FOR ALLAH BY YUSUF ISLAM (CAT STEVENS) THE BRITISH AYATOLLAH SINGER THE SEARCH FOR MODERATE ISLAM OR...... [137 words]TIRDAD GHARIBJul 14, 2008 14:13
NO DIALOGUE SHOULD BE BETWEEN TEHRAN IRAN AND WASHINGTON DC USA, [121 words]TIRDAD GHARIBJul 20, 2008 09:30
Is islamism really different from islam?
[w/response] [178 words]
François Eiffel/FFLNov 1, 2007 07:41
The Muslims Need a Scapegoat [878 words]Ibrahim Abdul Mu'minMay 25, 2005 11:21
Ibrahim Abdul Mumin [34 words]P.O.D.Dec 10, 2005 12:02
Moderate Islam? [77 words]Clifford IshiiMay 19, 2005 00:26
Islam: "Religion of Peace" [28 words]Avraham DavidJan 20, 2006 14:45
slam - when politics enter ... [264 words]Muhammad ArshadMay 3, 2005 06:07
I need more convincing [460 words]Kevin GrahamMar 31, 2005 07:55
Moderate Islam: A Pipe Dream! [3744 words]A (Keen) Student of IslamFeb 26, 2005 00:01
Moderate Islam: A Pipe Dream! [1235 words]A (Keen) Student of IslamMar 1, 2005 03:32
Kudos to comment by "A ( Keen) Student of Islam" [132 words]JaladhiMar 1, 2005 10:28
Response to commenter "A (keen) Student of Islam" [147 words]BobMar 26, 2005 17:03
Response to Bob's Comment [526 words]A (Keen) Student of IslamApr 3, 2005 15:50
A little proselytising for (keen) [118 words]Vic CoffeyMay 18, 2005 10:22
A little proselytising for (keen) [287 words]A (Keen) Student of IslamJun 2, 2005 05:08
studied in the desert: moderate Islam is Islam [201 words]studied in the middle of the Arabian desertMar 26, 2007 13:02
A Reply to Auster [166 words]Lowell ByrdFeb 18, 2005 05:16
I have weighed in favor of Lawrence Auster [219 words]David S. JacobFeb 11, 2005 19:37
a thorn in the side of humanity [314 words]richardFeb 4, 2006 23:40
moderate submission to Satan? [293 words]Bob BoyntonFeb 9, 2005 17:00
Mr. Auster is right [138 words]JaladhiFeb 8, 2005 15:36
The nature of Islam [59 words]Gloria StewartFeb 7, 2005 15:25
Moderate Islam v Political Islam [264 words]Karim MansoorFeb 7, 2005 10:38
Response to commenter Karim Mansoor [86 words]Peter J. HerzFeb 10, 2005 14:49
A take at Mr. Auster's response [328 words]Alain Jean-MairetFeb 4, 2005 00:46
Commenter Alain Jean-Mairet is not a civilizationalist [468 words]AndrewFeb 5, 2005 02:02
Response to Alain Jean-Mairet [339 words]Lawrence AusterFeb 5, 2005 20:08
I do not want to appease. [292 words]Alain Jean-MairetFeb 6, 2005 02:52
Alain Jean-Mairet's self-defeating reasoning [191 words]Lawrence AusterFeb 9, 2005 11:46
Auster's only half smart reasoning [154 words]Alain Jean-MairetFeb 10, 2005 14:48
Prediction = January 2006 [229 words]JAMES A HAUERJan 22, 2006 05:57
you will know a tree (pearl) by it's fruits. [26 words]RichardFeb 4, 2006 22:22
Well, I'll tellya... [92 words]Stanley LevinFeb 3, 2005 14:50
Obscurantist Islam cannot change [229 words]R.K. OhriFeb 3, 2005 11:37
Reply to L. Auster strikes me as utterly inconsistent with his usual manner
[w/response] [300 words]
Phil StanFeb 3, 2005 09:12
A most helpful clarification [166 words]Roger WT WilkinsonFeb 2, 2005 23:36
False Hope [309 words]JaladhiFeb 1, 2005 11:05
I'm not so confident, sorry [303 words]Olivia M.Feb 1, 2005 01:46
My reply to Daniel Pipes's reply [1727 words]Lawrence AusterJan 31, 2005 21:49
Comments on Auster's reply to Pipes's reply to Auster [597 words]bucephalusFeb 10, 2005 00:23
Jews Living in Christendom...Why Would They Want To? [91 words]BlissJul 18, 2006 12:05
Both Mr. Pipes and Mr. Auster are right to an extent [582 words]Quennel GaleJan 31, 2005 16:53
⇒ What is moderate Islam? [1149 words]LKJan 31, 2005 03:15
Question for LK [130 words]IPHFeb 5, 2005 15:44
Comments on Auster and Pipes Debate [466 words]K IbrahimJan 30, 2005 22:48
Lawrence Auster: "The Search for Moderate Islam" [140 words]A former muslimJan 30, 2005 22:33
Only one solution to a Peaceful Islam [6 words]Paul RinderleJan 30, 2005 19:22
Lawrence Auster, Daniel Pipes and Islamophobia [148 words]Octavio JohansonJan 30, 2005 17:32
The french psychoanalytical connection [284 words]Peter van SummerenJan 30, 2005 16:07
Fish in water [69 words]Gabriel TokingJan 30, 2005 06:36
Pipes vs. Auster [322 words]Richard BowersJan 30, 2005 00:13
Let's face reality, please. [324 words]Jason PappasJan 29, 2005 21:23
Lawrence Auster is right [122 words]F.ShawkiJan 29, 2005 20:24
Was Mohammed a Jihadi? [187 words]BenjaminJan 29, 2005 19:40
Response to Pipes vs. Auster Commentary [128 words]Shari Seaman GoodmanJan 29, 2005 18:54
Lawrence Auster's analysis is superficial [201 words]Octavio JohansonJan 29, 2005 18:09
Moderate Islam does exist (there are some moderates) [167 words]Steve KleinJan 29, 2005 14:02
RESPECT & FEAR [439 words]Marcos BerensteinJan 29, 2005 09:16
The 800 pound Gorillia cannot be contained by "Moderate" Islam [1167 words]AndrewJan 29, 2005 06:54
Modern vs. Historical Islam [254 words]John Randall PeacherJan 29, 2005 03:53
Auster is right [290 words]Caesar M. ArevaloJan 29, 2005 00:17
Arbitration [279 words]Alain Jean-MairetJan 31, 2005 00:58
Moderate Islam Does Exist [83 words]Mustafa AkyolJan 28, 2005 23:08
Response to Mustafa Akyol [211 words]JohnJan 29, 2005 13:34
ABU MUSAB AL-ZARQAWI'S LOATHSOME LEGACY [218 words]CITIZENJan 28, 2005 23:05
Agree to Disagree [53 words]JohnJan 28, 2005 22:51
Moderate Islam is an oxymoron [137 words]Hari IyerJan 28, 2005 22:47
ISLAMIC DEEDS & RHETORIC [343 words]CITIZENJan 28, 2005 20:33
PEACE? [223 words]LES DAVISJan 28, 2005 18:41
Pipes vs Auster = Winning vs Losing [119 words]Octavio JohansonJan 28, 2005 18:24
What about women in Islam?
[w/response] [287 words]
Susan ChapmanJan 28, 2005 16:25
The Big Question [119 words]Darwin BarrettJan 28, 2005 16:10
Parallel with Samuel Huntington's "The Clash of Civilizations" [83 words]Peter ChewJan 28, 2005 14:41
The strength of Radical Islam [379 words]Germain LucasJan 28, 2005 13:39
Reality [311 words]SJan 28, 2005 13:23
Compassion vs Hatred [220 words]JohnJan 28, 2005 12:39
Compassion and Hatred? Response to Commenter "John" [233 words]Peter J. HerzJan 31, 2005 21:43
Is it feasible? [170 words]JohnFeb 2, 2005 01:26
Moderate Islam?
[w/response] [26 words]
Amy EliezerJan 28, 2005 12:11
No such thing as moderate Islam [75 words]Kim SegarJan 28, 2005 11:52
Truly Literate Responsive [103 words]Jerrold E. GoldmanJan 28, 2005 11:44
Murder is murder [125 words]Paul RindertleJan 28, 2005 11:26
Both of You Are Right [210 words]David SmithJan 28, 2005 11:17
Keep up the good work, Mr. Pipes [41 words]Harley CahenJan 28, 2005 11:16
How about the UN meeting?
[w/response] [150 words]
Simon CohenJan 28, 2005 10:58
A Reply to Lawrence Auster [66 words]MayJan 28, 2005 10:51
The Goal [49 words]JosephJan 28, 2005 10:38
Deeper knowledge of two "Good Books" leads in different directions [261 words]D PattersonJan 28, 2005 10:36
Koranic Basis for Forgiveness? [38 words]Wallace LiechtyJan 30, 2005 23:37
D.Patterson's comment & Wallace Liechty's question [729 words]A (Keen) Student of IslamMar 2, 2005 12:16
Fecund Islam [211 words]Steven HessJan 28, 2005 10:22
Refreshing yes, apologizing for Islam, no! [81 words]Kenneth S. BesigJan 28, 2005 09:48

Comment on this item

Name
Email Address (optional)
Title of Comments
Comments:

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened for relevance, substance, and tone, and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome, but comments are rejected if scurrilous, off-topic, vulgar, ad hominem, or otherwise viewed as inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the Guidelines for Comments. For informational purposes, we identify countries from which comments are sent.

See the 25 most recent outstanding comments.

ADVERTISEMENTS

Premium Links by Wikio

Computers
Electronics
Communication
Appliances

eXTReMe Tracker

All materials written by Daniel Pipes on this site © Daniel Pipes. Email: MeqMef@aol.com

You can help support Daniel Pipes' important work by making a tax-deductible donation to the Middle East Forum.