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The growth of a dangerous counter culture?

Reader comment on item: [Theo van Gogh and] "Education By Murder" in Holland

Submitted by Asger Laurids (Netherlands), Nov 18, 2004 at 04:35

According to Mr Illian, a former asylum seeker from Teheran who teaches at the Law faculty of Amsterdam University, the ritual slaughter of Theo van Gogh is a sign that the Dutch government underestimated Islamic fundamentalism. Mr. Ilian told a Network-reporter that the killing is unheard of in Dutch history, Protestants and Catholics might have quarreled vehemently about their theological differences in the 19th century, but they never killed eachother.

Critics of European governments maintain that a islamic parallel society has grown in Holland, Germany, Belgium and France. This is due to the laxity of moderate parties, who often sought electoral support and tolerated the spreading of fundamentalist teachings.
Holland has been proud of its record of religious tolerance, the republic was a safehaven for Portugese and Spanish Jews, the so-called 'Maranen', and French Philosophers were able to publish their blasphemous works in the Netherlands.

There is however a darker side to this tolerance. In the first two years of the Second World War, the Dutch economy grew rapidly, German occupation brought financial relief. And about 95 percent of the Jewish population did not return, as they were, with the help of many Dutch officials, transported to the Camps in Poland and Germany.

There has grown an ethnic division in the Netherlands due to failing immigration-policies. The Dutch government has allowed 'gezinshereniging'—a continued process of matchmaking in Turkey and Marocco, virtually changing the demographic nature of the Netherlands and many parts of Europe. Fundamentalists see this, as they do in the Middle East, a strategy that works their way, this development will enhance their cause—they think.

Dutch parties, such as the CDA (the Christian democratic party), the PvdA (Social-democrats) and leftwing parties as Groen-Links and the Socialst party, led by a former Maoist, Mr. Jan Marijnissen, have been ardent supporters of the multi-cultural society. The main philosophy is a cultural relativism; cultures may exist harmoniously, no culture is superior so any man may follow his own suit..
This ideal of equality is a legacy from the Enlightenment, it has entrenched itself in the American constitution. And now Europe experiences a new wave of religious facism, as Joseph Joffe wrote in the german Newspaper Die Zeit. The islamo-fascists hope to undermine culture with 'our relativism'—they have built fundamentalist strongholds within free countries, such as the King Fahd academy in the German Rhineland, an institution financed by the Saudi Royals, a school in which the killing of unbelievers is taught.
The German 'innenminister' of the Rhineland has declined to take action as the German government does fear that the Saudis might retaliate and close all German schools in Saudi-Arabia.

Another problem is the division along ethnic lines -- Turks and Moroccans go their own mosques which are sometimes used as tools of Turkish or Moroccan policies in the Netherlands. Turkish imams are appointed by the Turkish state.

Turkish and Moroccan immigrants have sought their place in Dutch society; some have sought public office successfully. Mr. Aboutalib, an Amsterdam councillor of Moroccan origin is a vociferous critic of fundamentalists. Others do not engage in the heated debate and wait or question the attitude of Dutch.

Years and years Dutch who questioned immigration policies were decreed to be fascists and Nazis or right-wing, such as the murdered Mr. Pim Fortuyn, a former social-democrat who was an admirer of Joop den Uyl, an influential Dutch politician, and the Prime Minister in the seventies, who allegedly discovered the political talent of Mr.Fortuyn.

Another critic of Islam, Mrs. A.Hirshi Ali is also a former social-democrat. Before becoming an MP she was employed by the social democratic party's thinktank. She is living in a secret location as a result of the death threats and the terrorists' fatwah. Just as Mrs. Bousakla, a councillor in Antwerp, of Moroccan origin who received death threats as she is a critic of Islam. And today Dutch news reported that their will be no immediate sequel to the film Shou, shouf habibi, a successful film about Dutch Moroccans, as the filmmakers received signals that there would come violent reactions to mockery. The director declared: he did not want a knife in his belly, like Theo van Gogh.

In the meantime Dutch parties are quarreling about the blasphemy law.

Last Saturday the Dutch justice minister Hein Donner declared he wanted to revitalise old legislation concerning blasphemy, a sign many took as giving into the terrorists. The prime minister visited a mosque in Eindhoven and the pupils of the torched Bedirschool in Uden were invited to the Hague, to visit the Parliament. Many Dutch feel that the Prime Minister is out of tune with reality and should demand harsher measures and a curbing of islamists and stricter immigration policies.

The Government has failed to act upon the situation. It allowed Mr. Kaplan, the Caliphf from Cologne to transfer his money and organization to the Netherlands.

Some politicians even use fundamentalist idiom in their debates, like Mr. Ali Durmus, a lawyer who is councillor of the Party Leefbaar Den Bosch in the South of the Netherlands, who called his critics crusaders and denied substance to Mrs. Irshad Manji's claims.
Or the moderate Mr. Deniz Ozankali, who is a social democratic councillor and chairman of the local mosque, where - according to Dutch intelligence circles - the Grey Wolves and Milli Görus are extremely active.

On the 24the of january 2002 Yoram Stein wrote in the newspaper Trouw: 'He, mr. Haci, is a man that preaches integration and tolerance. Within his own mosque-organization there is fundementalistic and anti-semite propaganda. Just how credible is the director of Milli Görüs, Haci Karacaer? Almost everyone who knows him, is charmed by his qualities as bridge-builder between muslims and nonmuslims. But is he telling the truth about the goals of his ideological movement that he represents? A portrait 'A splendid candidate'. This was how Haci Karacaer was beeing described by Jos de Beus, chairman of the list of candidates for the PvdA (socialist party) in Amsterdam. Karacaer was 'heaven send' for the party, that was looking desperately for a suitable Turkish representative for the capital. The modern director of the North-Netherlands' (moderate) branch of the mosque-umbrella organization Milli Görüs seemed to be the perfect man for the job. Yet his name was not put on the list for the local council elections. Within the PvdA there was a growing concern that this man was not the 'perfect candidate'. Were his tolerant opinions also shared by his supporters, or was this a onemanshow? Afraid of the possible consequences the PvdA would face when associating themselves with the as fundamentalistic known MG, Karacaer disappered from the list. Indeed, according to freelance journalist Mehmet Ülger, Karacaer is not being honest about MG. "If you hear him talk, you think: this man has got good ideas. But he never tells you what is happening in the mosque. He does not tell you what people think and say there. But that is important, not the nice sugar-coated talk of a spokesman." According to Ülger, Karacaer is playing along with the MG-game.' (Trouw)

Mr. Haci is supported by many moderates, even boardmembers of the coc, the emancipation movement of homosexuals who deny any wrongdoing and see mr. Haci as an enlightened example of religious orthodoxy and tolerance.
Is this tolerance not one-sided?

Jews are threatened in Amsterdam and Antwerp; the minister of a Protestant church in Utrecht which was torched earlier, shortly after 9/11, last Sunday complained that he had not had one single phonecall, not from the local authorities, nor from the prime minister or a parliamentarian about the attack. Nothing. As Mr. Illian commented in the newspaper; 15 million people are scared.

Yesterday the self-styled preacher prime minister Balkenende lectured to the European Parliament advocating: multi-culturalism..
Tomorrow, on the 18th of november 2004, the new reported heavy losses for his party in the communal by-elections in the eastern provinces..


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Reader comments (125) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
Terror groups developing in South America [153 words]sevillaOct 10, 2012 02:46199656
This islamist act of terror against Theo Van Gogh means that Geert Wilders is even more brave than we thought....Feb.2010 [76 words]Phil GreendFeb 27, 2010 22:40169477
Brigitte you are My Hero [5 words]Anonymous FanJun 6, 2009 23:35156917
Bully, bully [87 words]dfwhite19438Jul 2, 2008 22:19134247
[Theo van Gogh and] "Education By Murder" in Holland [290 words]nnabsalFeb 20, 2008 08:09120595
Voltaire is spinning in his grave [47 words]LeeMar 6, 2006 06:2039040
The failure of the crusades [197 words]Yuval Brandstetter MDSep 30, 2006 15:4939040
Over the last 10 years I have seen a lot of first hand experience: [752 words]BrianJun 7, 2008 01:5039040
mmm [5 words]st\arr galFeb 4, 2010 14:5739040
Pride........ [88 words]antonFeb 14, 2006 17:0035646
comment [252 words]karimDec 22, 2005 17:0930422
Only read if you Know your religion is right. [264 words]taipeaFeb 24, 2009 21:4030422
1The curse on mankind [152 words]JamesNov 28, 2005 10:0928914
Fake Advertising [149 words]ashtrayDec 29, 2005 05:5528914
In order to stop true evil, you must understand how it travels from one generation to another [43 words]sidney s. davissonSep 6, 2006 15:5428914
stop arguing and face the facts.... [91 words]azaNov 7, 2005 07:3427878
sorry aza you can't win [55 words]TJFeb 9, 2006 17:1827878
an open heart is required [188 words]azaNov 7, 2005 07:0727877
My Dutch View [252 words]Niek BoschOct 22, 2005 03:4227198
the so called intellectuals provided their story [509 words]WAZJun 17, 2006 15:3427198
What about 9:123: Believers, make war on the infidels... ? [69 words]George NubieSep 10, 2006 10:4327198
Is the problem Islam? [157 words]SnehaJul 27, 2005 06:5823899
Against the Odds [198 words]Grace CannanJul 10, 2005 20:0823310
We are at a crossroad... [544 words]Bruno GissaraJul 8, 2005 07:4323207
What I learned from Theo [328 words]NadiaJul 6, 2005 23:0823164
This was a man of hate and ugliness [67 words]A.G.Jun 30, 2005 16:3923051
Hitler's philosophy alive and well - it is multiculturalism [139 words]paul nessheadJun 23, 2005 22:1122839
A different point -- [338 words]Roleke van AntwerpenJun 1, 2005 08:1722505
I agree [8 words]JanApr 20, 2005 00:4121732
3'Arabs are taught hatred of Jews with mothers' milk.'.. journo Brigitte Gabriel [2127 words]Adriana StuijtApr 16, 2005 07:1521693
Gabriel well breast fed! [26 words]abdallah tohmeDec 31, 2006 14:2721693
The twin fascisms that causes most massacres, wars, "conflicts" today: [217 words]AliciaFeb 14, 2010 14:2621693
More racist Arabs' attempts to brand multi-racial-Israel as "racist" – a racism masked as "anti-racism" [319 words]RonaldApr 9, 2010 20:1121693
Arab Racism VS Israeli Worries [39383 words]AlDec 13, 2010 17:3521693
Good summary, thanks [32 words]SitoOct 12, 2012 12:2921693
Arab racism [80 words]stagDec 16, 2012 06:2521693
Muslim hate crimes and hostility to the West [286 words]Info Tech GuyApr 7, 2005 23:2021479
Racism [123 words]SamMar 30, 2005 01:0221235
racist reply [264 words]laurenceAug 17, 2005 10:1221235
Just not enough [52 words]Vishal VMar 26, 2005 04:1721171
Only one question [68 words]A.Melih YÜKSELMar 18, 2005 10:0221053
Another Western society as raw as always judgement [206 words]M. EmraniFeb 3, 2005 19:4820096
Anyone here read, "EURABIA: The Euro-Arab Axis" by Bat Ye'or [79 words]GWKJan 11, 2005 10:4519583
I'm reading Eurabia [89 words]Wileen SheehanDec 3, 2009 07:0519583
How Real is the Threat? [701 words]MMBDec 21, 2004 19:2619091
CAIR unresponsive to Theo van Gogh query [271 words]R. LutzDec 14, 2004 15:2318991
Bouyeri picture not illegally published in the Netherlands [92 words]Oscar Laurens SchroverDec 6, 2004 08:2418870
Tales from wonderful Copenhagen [559 words]Oscar Laurens SchroverDec 6, 2004 08:0618869
Theo Van Gogh: A Great Martyr [96 words]Funk Soul BruhvaDec 5, 2004 23:0518867
There is no moderate Islam [83 words]Richard (Toronto, Canada)Dec 3, 2004 21:0918844
Crusades-21st Century style! [44 words]JoeFeb 11, 2006 15:0218844
WAKE UP! [232 words]Joe HuntersixpackjesusfreakFeb 15, 2006 00:5218844
stop the haterd [45 words]Ahmed AdenFeb 20, 2006 10:0118844
it's either them or us [51 words]dan pNov 21, 2006 09:4018844
Have any of you read the Koran? [162 words]James CarbonaroNov 29, 2006 13:2118844
Western leadership [117 words]Don Van SickleDec 3, 2004 12:0618835
Lawsuit against van Gogh film [88 words]Oscar Laurens SchroverDec 2, 2004 06:3518814
Pressrelease by Ayaan Hirshi Ali, the dutch liberal parliamentarian who co-authored the controversial Film Submission [119 words]Oscar Laurens SchroverNov 30, 2004 03:2618710
Islam, religion of peace [191 words]EricoAug 7, 2008 12:2918710
Don't criticize Islam, or you will get killed [76 words]Ashoorina JacobNov 29, 2004 01:0118692
Islamists [14 words]FredFeb 23, 2006 10:0118692
questions-- [57 words]rafFeb 26, 2006 21:0418692
See for yourself - View Theo's film [47 words]Tos CaredtonameNov 28, 2004 18:5018690
More at stake, Turkish Islamists call Armenian genocide a myth. [544 words]Oscar Laurens SchroverNov 28, 2004 13:3118684
In Defense of the Mafia [217 words]MerryNov 28, 2004 12:5818683
Double Standards [77 words]Ayesha IsmailNov 27, 2004 09:5418665
Reply to Ayesha Ismail (Double Standards) [222 words]Funk Soul BruhvaDec 9, 2004 22:0918665
Reallly Old Post I Found [459 words]AshtrayDec 20, 2005 05:0218665
Compare Holland to India [61 words]S.C.PandaNov 25, 2004 04:4618619
That doesn't work for Spain [66 words]Ana PérezNov 23, 2004 09:3618544
2Canada must wake up too [434 words]Barry KumarNov 23, 2004 01:2318516
The Religion of Peace [289 words]Arlinda DeAngelisNov 22, 2004 21:2818507
Van Gogh murder [205 words]Lubicz, StephaneNov 21, 2004 15:5618489
They told me so... . [125 words]Elvira WongNov 21, 2004 13:5018488
Economic policy can help solve the Islamist problem [99 words]BottomfishNov 21, 2004 09:3118483
Trojan Horse [194 words]Hari IyerNov 20, 2004 22:5618478
Time to wake up [214 words]Sarah CiprianoNov 20, 2004 21:3518477
Action against Islamism [44 words]Thomas QuittnerNov 20, 2004 15:4818472
All in the Name of Multiculturalism [91 words]PatNov 20, 2004 12:3718470
What is in the Koran? [78 words]Rowena DavidsonNov 20, 2004 07:3518467
* Important precedents for the van Gogh murder [216 words]YorumcuNov 19, 2004 12:5518463
What Dutch Response? [55 words]Jay StarkmanNov 19, 2004 10:4218462
Marc Lepine aka Gabil Gabri Canada's coverup [44 words]HarryNov 18, 2004 23:3918459
the canadian gun registry [35 words]roland verretFeb 26, 2008 17:1218459
Intimidation [46 words]WilliamNov 18, 2004 22:4418458
The growth of a dangerous counter culture? [1296 words]Asger LauridsNov 18, 2004 04:3518446
Play with Fire, and you will get burned [19 words]Darius MahdaviNov 17, 2004 23:3918442
Reply to Darius [378 words]P. MoeNov 22, 2004 13:0018442
Reply to Reply to Darius [22 words]Rob ArsenaultNov 24, 2004 12:5518442
Battle of Holland [151 words]J MelloryNov 17, 2004 20:4218440
Stop the Insanity [61 words]Joe CassaroNov 17, 2004 17:0318437
Thank you [44 words]CarolynNov 17, 2004 16:4418436
A Wake-Up Call [58 words]Bob RowleyNov 17, 2004 14:3418433
Dangerous [33 words]DebbieNov 17, 2004 13:2018431
Moderating Moslems [225 words]Sir Daniel M.J. TobinNov 17, 2004 12:3718430
WORLD WAR 1V - The Battle of Holland. [283 words]Mel GardenNov 17, 2004 12:2218429
Not entirely unprecedented [89 words]Martin HendersonNov 17, 2004 11:0118427
Like Mafia, like only one slice of the pizza... [137 words]RPaineNov 17, 2004 10:0918426
Re: Mafia [17 words]Shivkumar SinghNov 17, 2004 08:3518424
Liberals in Manhattan [57 words]Leif KnutsenNov 17, 2004 08:1018423
To Mr. Knutsen [316 words]David WolfNov 17, 2004 14:5318423
End Islamist takeover [58 words]Emanuel KafesNov 17, 2004 08:0518421
Theo's death must be avenged by waking us all up! [43 words]Molly Torres KafesNov 17, 2004 07:3918420
From a European [177 words]Octavio JohansonNov 17, 2004 04:1718418
Europeans are part of the problem [242 words]Flik AmochNov 17, 2004 01:2718413
Lookout! Olde Europe might issue a condemnation! [58 words]NealNov 17, 2004 00:2018412
Intolerant totalitarian Islamofacism [213 words]Tom PensylNov 16, 2004 23:1018411
Combating Islamofacism [43 words]Clifford IshiiApr 1, 2006 21:1518411
Excellent commentaries on Islamic fundamentalism [7 words]Michael RucksNov 16, 2004 22:4818410
Just another killing [160 words]DonaldNov 16, 2004 22:3418408
Right on! [41 words]William GrauNov 16, 2004 22:1318407
Islamic Sensitivity Training -- a required course at Ohio State [300 words]Joseph MartinNov 16, 2004 21:5418406
Theo Van Gogh was not an angel [51 words]AmidutNov 16, 2004 21:5118405
Education by Murder [16 words]TedNov 16, 2004 16:5518399
They only understand force and retaliation [108 words]Cheryl MavrikosNov 16, 2004 16:1718397
Theo van Gogh and Margaret Hassan [209 words]Romesh ChanderNov 16, 2004 16:0918396
Identity of the Victim [203 words]Robert SniderNov 16, 2004 15:2818394
It is a simple problem [39 words]SteveNov 16, 2004 15:1218393
1I hope Europe will now understand Hindu reaction in Gujrat [215 words]Romesh ChanderNov 16, 2004 15:1118392
Let the replication begin! [43 words]Timothy JonesNov 16, 2004 14:3718391
In praise of artistic freedom [71 words]Linda Salzman SaganNov 16, 2004 14:0618390
Islamist Threat [138 words]Marcos BerensteinNov 16, 2004 13:4718389
It's about time! [23 words]Monty PogodaNov 16, 2004 12:3818388
Kill a plumber and it's nothing... [28 words]Howard VeitNov 16, 2004 12:3418387
Mafia-like intimidation does not work in the modern era. [59 words]A. KafirNov 16, 2004 12:2018386

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